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| Thread: Might vs magic |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 15, 2007 12:55 PM |
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From my point of view a magic skill is one that benefits from or increases the value of spell power or knowledge. Low level light magic does not benefit from high spell power or knowledge only the mastery counts. The same could be said for dark magic, low level dark magic (lvls 1-3) is not spell power or knowledge dependent, but high lvl is in some way.
I don't agree in this, really. Light Magic and Dark Magic spells still cost Mana, so without any Knowledge, you won't go anywhere. That's true for all magic schools. And about Spell Power dependancy - there IS a difference between having your spells lasting 1 or 5 rounds. In fact, I'd turn it around and say, for many Light/Dark spells, they depend on Spell Power ONLY in the beginning.
As for suggestions on how to make Light and Dark Magic spells more dependant on Spell Power, we've discussed that before. For reference, look here and here.
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted October 15, 2007 01:04 PM |
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well, spellpower is good to have for Light and Dark Magic, but only to some degree that can usually be satisfied with some artifacts and stat boosting locations. That is to say, a Wizard with 20+ spellpower won't really fare better than a Knight with 10. Sure, the battle might take longer, but the Knight probably won the upper hand by then thanks to better might stats. Destructive and Summoning are much more spellpower-dependant than Light and Dark.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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HEBPEME
Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
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posted October 15, 2007 01:41 PM |
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Quote:
I'm not so keen on the invisible guys. Assasins are there to put poison on as many enemies as possible, and stalkers lose at least one turn until they can hit an enemy. And once they do, they are visible again and vulnerable. Same for the Shadow Mistress.
I haven't played with the other dungeon alternates so far, but they seem decent. Brisk Raiders should be pretty annoying if used right, and they still have the lizard bite. The rest seems like a matter of taste. Acidic Hydras for example are a bit weaker, but have more splash going on when they are hit in melee.
I was mostly impressed by their ability in terms of creeping. In the late game, i don't think they can be crucial of course. Although, they too have poisonous strike and great damage. Also, like in my case, combined with Vayshan hero + bloody claw + battle frenzy they are quite the damage dealers trust me  Not to mention if luck triggers...it hurts!
Plus you can distract, confuse and block enemy with their stealth mode
Cheers
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 15, 2007 02:49 PM |
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Edited by kermit at 15:03, 15 Oct 2007.
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Quote:
Quote:
From my point of view a magic skill is one that benefits from or increases the value of spell power or knowledge. Low level light magic does not benefit from high spell power or knowledge only the mastery counts. The same could be said for dark magic, low level dark magic (lvls 1-3) is not spell power or knowledge dependent, but high lvl is in some way.
I don't agree in this, really. Light Magic and Dark Magic spells still cost Mana, so without any Knowledge, you won't go anywhere. That's true for all magic schools. And about Spell Power dependancy - there IS a difference between having your spells lasting 1 or 5 rounds. In fact, I'd turn it around and say, for many Light/Dark spells, they depend on Spell Power ONLY in the beginning.
Well I did mention HIGH SP/KW
6 SP is more than you will ever need for any light/dark lvl 1-3 spell, having more SP than that is simply a waste of skill points. 6 knowledge would probably be sufficient for buff spells too... having more than 10 is a waste again.
Let's just take a look at some Light spells:
Mass hase 8MP, Mass Righteous Might 12 MP, Magical Immunity 7MP.
Dark Magic:
Mass slow 8MP, Mass Suffering 10MP, Mass Confusion 18 MP
With the exception of confusion, they all cost very little MP and even if the battle lasts longer than 6 turns or there is a need to counter dark/light magic, they can be easily recast even with low mana.
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 15, 2007 03:30 PM |
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I've read the threads you pointed to, there is some interesting ideas there indeed. In those threads however you defended the idea tha light/dark was very little SP/KW dependent. This is precisely what I was saying.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 15, 2007 05:10 PM |
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Yes, certainly, I agree that once you get past a score of 5-8 or so, you don't really need any more Spell Power and Knowledge with Light / Dark Magic at levels 1-3, which are perhaps the most powerful spells in the game - which seems completely counter-intuitive.
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What will happen now?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 15, 2007 05:12 PM |
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Naaah, most powerful spells are Phoenix and Puppet master, period.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 15, 2007 05:51 PM |
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Depending on class and time. Early game Wizard with Phoenix - yes. Late game Knight with Master of Wrath and Blessing and Abjuration ... hmmm.
Oh, and just to make a final note on what we discussed yesterday: Adding the racial skills to the numbers tweaks the numbers like this, if you consider 4 racials might (Stronghold, Haven, Sylvan, Inferno) and the rest magic:
Barbarian: 96 % Might, 4 % Magic. (Might Exclusive)
Knight: 76 % Might, 24 % Magic. (Might Dominant)
Demon Lord: 67 % Might, 33 % Magic. = Ranger: 66 % Might, 34 % Magic. (Might Favored)
Rune Mage: 56 % Might, 44 % Magic. (Might Inclined)
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Warlock: 43 % Might, 57 % Magic. (Magic Inclined)
Necromancer: 34 % Might, 66 % Magic. (Magic Favored)
Wizard: 24 % Might, 76 % Magic. (Magic Dominant)
Sorceress: 4 % Might, 96 % Magic (Magic Exclusive)
It's kind of funny that with these numbers, the classes actually fall perfectly symmetrical around the centre, with the exception of two classes (Demon Lord and Ranger) both having Might Favored, and no classes having Magic Exclusive. The speculated Naga faction might be a candidate to hold that spot (one can then entertain the mind with suggestions for Shatter Attack, Shatter Defence, Shatter Leadership and Shatter Luck skills). Shatter Leadership sort of brings us back the discussion of Necropolis and Leadership from the other topic. 
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What will happen now?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 15, 2007 06:54 PM |
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Of course circumstances do matter but giving best circumstances for each spell those two just crush everything else.
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grow
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 16, 2007 08:16 AM |
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yeah id say phoenix is more or less best spell
only problem ive had with it is necros with
wraiths/raise dead (annoying) thinking now though....
idk if banish would drain a phoenix' life or kill whole thing-never tried
and what about sylvan deadeye shot or whatever its called-never tried that either?
phoenix owns all either way though 
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nothing is predictable
grow me
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted October 16, 2007 11:51 AM |
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bah, both spells can be countered quite easily. Cleanse being the most obvious for PM, but there are other ways. If the enemy also knows Dark Magic, he can counter by either PM or Vampirism, the latter being the smarter choice (since the creature is now undead, PM is canceled for "free").
Phoenix is thougher for most factions in the absence of Wraiths and Pit Lords, but Banish for Summoning Magic and Cold Death for Destructive Magic work wonders.
That is not to say they aren't great spells, I loved messing with the enemy with Puppet Master, but against a smart human player (or sometimes even the AI, who once countered my Puppet Master with Vampirism), they aren't the ultimate means to everything.
Puppet Master is useless against undeads, by the way
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 16, 2007 12:01 PM |
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Have you experienced puppeted wraiths with sandro's cloak?  Ugh that hurts.
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted October 16, 2007 01:54 PM |
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I've seen frenzied Cyclops. Poor goblins...
didn't know Sandro's Cloak removes the undeads immunities, though..
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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grow
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 17, 2007 05:50 AM |
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i havent played tote yet...but it comes out wednesday, in hours lol anyway but
this vampirism, it seems very useful and powerful just going off impressions, did light magic get any new spells to balance and so on with other magic schools that races specialize and benefit mostly from?
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nothing is predictable
grow me
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted October 17, 2007 08:46 AM |
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all schools got around 2 new spells, including firewall being moved to destructive.
Dark: Sorrow (reduces luck and morale), Vampirism (renders target undead and gives it Life Drain)
Light: Regeneration (similiar to the Hydra ability, but scaling), Vengance (deals damage depending on how many kills the target stack has scored this fight)
Summoning: Arcane Crystal (1x1 barrier), Blade Barrier (barrier that deals damage to melee attackers), Summon Hive (summon that casts Wasp Swarm)
Destructive: Deep Frost (freezes target and causes increased physical damage), Firewall (moved from Summoning)
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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grow
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 17, 2007 09:18 AM |
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hmmm dark and destructive seem to be most strong change
firewall will get a nice boost in descrutive, especially warlocks
vampirism all in all sounds really effective, can this be cleaned?
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nothing is predictable
grow me
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted October 17, 2007 09:32 AM |
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I think so, but I haven't tested it yet. All I know is that at the end of the necro campaign, it resulted in a 112% lifedrain 
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 17, 2007 05:45 PM |
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PRIMARY SPELL SCHOOLS
Each town has 2 main spell schools.
High spellpower and knowledge schools = magic = destructive and summoning.
1. Destructive(+3 pts) - very high SP and high K needed
2. Summoning(+2 pts) - high SP needed and very high K needed
3. Dark(+1 pt) - mass spells are easy to cast.
4. Light(0 pts) - "passive" mass spells are easy to cast.
5. Destructive and summoning -> 1.5 pts if a native heroclass can't use it properly: not inclined to get high spellpower+high knowledge.
1. Dungeon: Destructive + Summoning: 2+3 = 5
2. Necropolis: Summoning + Dark: 1+2 = 3
3. Academy: Summoning + Light + library: 2+0+1 = 3
4. Inferno: Destructive + Dark = 1.5+1 = 2.5
5. Runemage: Destructive + light = 1.5+0 = 2
6. Ranger: Destructive + light = 1.5+0 = 1.5
7. Knight: Dark + light = 1+0 = 1
8. Barbarian: no magic = 0
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