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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: A stronghold creatures' overview
Thread: A stronghold creatures' overview This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
frostwolf
frostwolf


Famous Hero
livin' in a bottle of vodka
posted January 20, 2008 05:35 PM bonus applied.
Edited by frostwolf at 12:08, 21 Jan 2008.

A stronghold creatures' overview

Since stronghold is my favorite faction, I thought I’d write a Stronghold creature review. I know there is already a ‘discuss the stronghold faction thread’, but no one seemed to bother with a full creature review until know, so I thought I’d give it a thread of its own.

A lot of people will say that Stronghold is underpowered with no magic and some such. It is my belief that all factions are good in the hands of a dedicated player.

Also, when talking about stronghold, always remember blood rage. Bloodrage is your friend, and the one thing the orc army has above all the rest. Use it wisely as a means to defend your units (coz you don’t have to be that smart to do more damage with it).Try to calculate what will add and what (and who) will subtract bloodrage in a battle, and try to always keep it (at least) at level one.  

Note: I will not be writing the stats, you can see them for your own in game. Just considerations about the creatures and their upgrades. So, let’s get to it.


Goblins: the tier 1 unit, with their infamous cowardice. This is one of the more ‘special’ units in the game. Because it has no retaliation, and when hit can sometimes run into bigger trouble. And they switch sides when their numbers are low. But they do have their uses. One of them is blocking your centaurs, and the other is consuming the enemy’s retaliation. Now remember, since the orcs are an offensive faction who get penalized for defending, the goblins also have no retaliation. So this leaves them unable to do damage other than attacking. The best target for this are of course (except shooters and such) units with normal (one) retaliation, allowing you to hit with another unit with no penalty. Now as far as the betraying goes, it should be considered a good option to upgrade goblins as soon as possible. You may even try to do it in the first day, if the surrounding enemies seem to be (too) powerful.

Goblin trappers: have the higher defensive power. More staying power is always good for the orcs. Their special ability is quite useful: champions, lizard riders and other such ‘charging cavalry’ units can be stopped dead in their tracks. One good way to make the trapper’s special ability highly effective is, once you have enough of them, to split them into two stacks. This gives you two traps instead of one, and since traps are not guaranteed to work, it doubles your chance to stop that pesky bear rider. Remember to use their traps well in conjecture with the terrain.

Goblin witch-doctors: the favored upgrade to goblins, these little fellows mess up enemy spells. They have lower stats than their counterparts tough. Not much to say except they are useful against Academy and such, but overall they tend to die a lot faster.

Conclusion: Well, first thing you should consider is upgrading your goblins, because overall they are the tier 1 creature with the most disadvantages. When it comes to upgrading, my personal favorite is the trapper. While the witch-doctor is good against spellcasters, when he fails, you don’t get jack, and even if he succeeds, it won’t make that much of a difference to a powerful wizard (my opinion of course). Trappers, on the other hand, allow for a more diverse strategic approach regarding the battlefield. Also, keep in mind that orcs really don’t have that much staying power. Since all goblins are food and fodder for the cyclops, having them die slower in battle seems like the better idea.


Centaurs: the shooters of the barbarian armies, not much to say about them. They look cool, and are a more than decent shooter unit. Their retreat ability is a two-edged blade. On one hand, they get away from their attacker, allowing them to keep shooting. On the other hand, they might just run off into the fray. You don’t want your centaurs running away from peasants to where your cyclops is ‘talking’ to the angel. Try to keep them protected at all times, always put them behind obstacles and between your melee units. In the earlygame, obviously, you should place them at the edge of the map.

Centaur nomad: an improved version of the centaur. It has better stats, and does more damage. It retains its maneuver ability, whose pros and cons have been discussed above. Not much else to say, except that they look even cooler.

Centaur marauder: the better version if you ask me, the marauder doesn’t do quite as much damage as the nomad, but it has double the nomad’s defense and higher speed, making it the better candidate. But the really good deal you get with these guys is their no melee penalty. Which in my opinion is better than maneuver, because you get to kick the attacker’s a** without risking your centaurs running off near that rakasha.

Conclusion: while I prefer the marauder, it should be noted that the nomad may not run into bigger trouble, which makes his ability obviously better; on the other hand, the arrow he shoots after maneuvering only deals half damage, while the marauder’s attack is a no penalty one. My personal favorite is the marauder, because I find maneuver to risky, and the nomad’s stats overall to low. And remember, if you like centaurs, pick Haggash as your hero, she will greatly increase their effectiveness. Another thing to remember is that throughout the game, the enemy will almost always go for your centaurs first (and they will always try to take them out from afar with their shooters). Centaurs are a good ranged unit, and so they present a real threat; and since they don’t have that much staying power, they will most likely die first. Try to maximize their use (using Haggash or Kragh with powerful blow on the first turn), and when the situation requires it, allow them to keep the enemy’s shooters’ attention while you make your way to their front line with the rest of your army.  


Warriors: the rank and file of the stronghold armies. Well, there isn’t that much to say about them. A decent melee unit with the enrage ability. Yay… Use them as your standard infantry, protecting centaurs or attacking enemy weak spots. And remember, the whole discussion about warriors and their upgrades changes when using Telsek, which makes them really strong. Now they’re not the best hero specialty to have, but since Telsek starts wit a ballista, getting triple flaming arrows and having really strong warriors really pays off, especially in the early game.

Maulers: The offensive variant of the two upgrades. The mauler is a damage dealer, having the assault ability that makes him potentially kick-a** (he can deliver a second blow). He is faster than the warmonger, but still an overall slow unit.  

Warmonger: now here’s an interesting unit. With less offense than the mauler, the warmonger appears as a protective kind of unit. It has higher defense and is even slower (which makes him really slow) than the mauler, and has fierce retaliation. This means he will deal 150% damage when he strikes back. Not as useful as assault if you ask me, but he compensates by having the ability to taunt. When I say compensates I don’t however mean it compensates in quality, but rather in quantity of the abilities. Because I don’t find taunting that useful. Since your centaurs will be targeted from afar, the only unit lower than him that the warmonger can protect is the goblin. Obviously good, but not impressive. Everything else except the goblin, the warmonger only manages to get himself killed, only saving some damage from higher tier units.

Conclusion: remember, if you chose Telsek your maulers and warmongers will really be powerful. Combined with the ballista, Telsek and triple flaming arrows with lots of warriors provides one of the best Stronghold strategies. On the question of which is better, my personal choice is the mauler, since the warmonger is so slow and neither his fierce retaliation nor his taunt are that useful.


Shamans: Ah, the pretty shamans. One of the coolest looking units in the game if you ask me, and with one of the coolest battle animations. The shamans, and their respective upgrades, are all able to cast slow and haste; very useful, considering the lack of spells of the barbarian heroes. The shamans will most of the time be part of your main fighting force. They look cool, do damage, cast those spells barbarians so dearly need, what more could you want. They’re tough and do good damage, have high movement and good initiative.

Sky Daughter: the first shaman upgrade. It only has higher defense than the earth daughter, but lower damage, the same hp and lower speed. It does however come with a chain lighting spell, which she cannot use until sacrificing a goblin (from lack of mana). This makes her, in my opinion, too slow and not an option for combat. Sure, chain lightning is nice, but you have to be living in order to cast it, right? That’s kinda hard to do after the 321 turns it takes to be able to cast it. I’m exaggerating of course, but the point stands nonetheless.

Earth Daughter: now here is a real beauty. Higher damage and greater speed than her counterpart, no chain lighting but that’s pretty useless anyway, able to cast slow and haste, and with a hexing attack. This is one of the best combos you can get. The ‘hit enemy, hex him, get blood rage, enemy retaliates but is hexed and doesn’t do much damage because she’s protected by blood rage’ combo, that is. Use the earth daughters to hex enemy melee troops and weaken them for further attacks, or better yet disrupt the enemy’s shooters.

Conclusion:  the shamans are one of the best units the orcs have. Use them in the good orcish tradition, that is kicking a** and chewing bubblegum. I strongly recommend the earth daughter over the sky daughter because of the better attack and the fact that chain lightning is so hard to start.


Slayer: no, not the band. But an equally ‘heavy metal’ unit. These guys are the hard strike force of the army. They’re big and they’re mean. And they have the ‘cleave ability’, which makes them some of the beast damage dealers. Not much else to say about them.

Executioner: the offensive variant, the executioner keeps his clave ability. Additionally, he always has good morale and he has frightful aura, which basically makes enemies c**p in their pants (reduces morale by 3 to all adjacent enemies). Useful for wreaking havoc and crippling enemy’s morale.

Chieftain: the defensive variant, the chieftain actually has all stats better than the executioner, except attack (with 1 point lower). They do not, however, get cleave, nor the other morale bonuses. They instead have order of the chief, which allows a unit’s turn to arrive faster (for some tiny damage). Combined with the shaman’s speed, this makes an obviously good combo.

Conclusion:   I stuck to describing the unit above because I know there is a heated debate about which is better: executioner or chieftain. Supporters of both units have brought arguments which are good and valid, so I suppose it all remains a matter of choice. As for my personal opinion, I vote for chieftains. Even tough they don’t deal as much damage and cripple morale, they have a lot more staying power due to their higher defense and hp; and that is always something good for the orcs. Apart from that, his special is pretty useful (but not the reason why I choose them, the reason being, as I said, the better stats).


Wyvern: the wyvern is probably the hardest tier 6 to get your hands on. Not only does it require the walker’s hut and a large amount of resources, you will also have to make the choice between the capitol (and that expensive slave market) and the cyclops cave. Most of the times, the choice should be one of these last two, and the wyverns postponed. They are a decent unit and have regeneration. Choosing Shak’Karukat as your hero is a very good option here. He increases the wyvern’s hp, which combined with regeneration is really good. He also has defense, which makes his units even tougher (a ‘must have’ for barbarians).

Foul wyvern: the almost never picked upgrade, the foul wyvern features a poisonous attack that lasts three turns and some really funky colors. It’s technically more attack oriented than the paokai, and does not generally compare good with the latter’s lightning attack. They do however have regeneration which goes well with first aid tent and Shak’Karukat (possibly with expert war machines). You should at least choose them for that wicked green skin of theirs. I mean it, I love the way they look.

Paokai: the paokai is a really whooping unit. Too bad they’re so hard to get. They have more staying power than the foul wyverns (again, a good thing), lightening breath, which can cause havoc, can restore it’s health by consuming corpses (doesn’t have regeneration tough, so this puts it at somewhat of a disadvantage compared to the foul wyvern’s regeneration+first aid tent combo), and as an added perk is immune to blind. They aren’t that funky colored tough.

Conclusion: Most people will choose the paokai. No matter how much I like the fouls, I have to agree that this is the better choice. Remember that they are your only fliers, so going behind enemy lines with a paokai and attacking a group of shooters/casters with lightning breath is always a good idea. If you can get the break to eat corpses, then you’re set. When going for the foul wyvern, if you feel like they won’t last that long in battle (eg. You don’t have Shak’Karukat), try at least to attack several different opponents, so you can at least put that poison to good use.


Cyclops: finally, we get to the big guys. I have to admit that the cyclops is really my favorite tier 7. The cyclops has the very useful habit of swinging big tree trunks at the enemy and eating goblins when he’s low on health. Combined with his naturally high health and a healing tent, this is a pretty useful ability. No other special abilities, unfortunately. Remember that the goblins must at all times remain near the cyclops, which can be hard to do sometimes.

Untamed cyclops: this is the offensive variant of the two. Apart from eating goblins, the untamed cyclops can throw them. Even tough he suffers a range penalty; this ability can come in really useful. He can also attack walls and towers. Use this to your advantage, especially when fighting fortress. Their gates will come crumbling down so much faster. Another great thing about these guys is that they hit a 4 tile area. I still remember when the AI had two stacks of titans one near the other: it took one blow and they came crushing down. So yeah, it’s a really useful ability. Beware tough, that it can hit your own units. Sometimes the opponent will try to sneak something like a champion to hit your cyclops in the first turn, causing him to retaliate and crush your own troops. A good way for preventing this is putting your cyclops in the corner, and even better, if you have tactics, placing the goblins behind the cyclops.  

Bloodyeyed cyclops: has a higher defensive value, still eats and throws goblins, but his attack only reduces the enemy’s luck by 3. If you don’t have luck reducing artifacts on you, it’s pretty useless tough. Doesn’t seem so useful since it can’t break down gates or hit 4 tiles, but a good unit overall.

Conclusion:  The cyclops is a really good damage dealer, with good regeneration capabilities. The option of range attack also presents itself, like the one of siege in case of the untamed ones, so they really are one of the best tier 7. Keep in mind tough that a large part of their bonuses is dependent on the goblins, and so you should try to protect the little fellows at all times (and not smack the living s*** out of them with the untamed’s retaliation like I did once)


So there you have it, an overview of the stronghold units. Remember that all stated above are my own ideas, so criticism and correction is always welcome. Tell me what you think.  Corrections and comments will be added soon (now that I’ve finished it I’m going for a beer).



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Bombur
Bombur


Known Hero
posted January 20, 2008 06:30 PM

While I agree with your creatures overview overall,I want to give you an advice.Taunt is really good,all you need is to boost their bloodrage so they wont suffer many losses and/or boost their initiative with shamans and you'll get pretty good results.The maulers die very fast compared to warmongers.Plus they get 8 hit points on level 1 bloodrage.
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Orfinn
Orfinn


Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
posted January 20, 2008 07:50 PM

I love your rewiew. Funny and informative But! I have to say that Foul Wyverns and Sky Daughters aint bad at all. Chain Lightning may cause even more damage than those Earth Daughters, well ecept nasty curses, still. The Sky Daughter aint crazy running into the field as her Earth bound sister loves to do. She stay behind and protected by her orcish lovers While sacrificing Goblin Witch Doctors and chewin bubblegum

I have found the Foul Wyverns regeneration and poison more useful than the pao kais abilities, since eating corpses waste a turn...though it may be worth it. But as you said, getting the Foulies hitting as many targets ASAP is a nice tactic, even if they may die fast. Still the regeneration are quite useful in the long run IMO.
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elmek
elmek


Adventuring Hero
posted January 20, 2008 08:14 PM

Nice review.
One correction: The Bloodeyed cyclops reduces enemy luck by 3, not morale.

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Anakrom
Anakrom


Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
posted January 20, 2008 08:30 PM

Nice review, just two things - Warmonger does 200% damage during retaliation, and Slayer is trash metal.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 20, 2008 09:10 PM

Goblins: Yep normally I upgrade them first day But I'll wait until an enemy is weakened before I attack and until then I'll be running around.

Goblin trappers: Actually I use one full stack and 3 single trappers that works surprisingly well. At worst you sacrifice a few of the single ones to steal retaliation and also boost your rage. Otherwise they'll be placing traps all the time though first trap should be placed by the big stack that will have higher chance to work

Goblin witch-doctors: They also have decent damage. I only use them in hero battles but they often fail. Of course the times it will work the results will be miraculous Against dungeon they will either weaken the spell or cause the enemy to cast an extra free spell focused on them as if he had mark of the wizard Funny gamble.

Conclusion: Their staying power along with the rage that accumulates as they stay in the back and battle frenzy perk can surprise an enemy that has not faced them in lategame. They die hard.


Centaurs' Conclusion: If you get first aid fast you can exploit their low hp to resurrect them easier I'd still get to use nomads against dark casters. If they are frenzied they'll hit you with half damage which is very important.


Warriors: I don't think they are meant to be used in earlygame except in the case of Telsek. They are really bad unupgraded and not of much help with creeping.

Warmonger: Err these guys don't die if you ask me. Already monstrous health so the +8hp from rage and unlimited retaliations later make them crazy tanks. They will be the ones that will remain since the opponent focuses on those that can be killed faster and have better damage dealing capabilities. I have seen 7 dragons attack them with luck, less than 10 died.. And taunt is good, you just have to find the correct placement so the opponent has to pass near them to attack his intended target. It's a good surprise to attack them instead, kill almost none and get a powerful retaliation

Conclusion: Maybe but maulers also die fast. Anyway I would not use them against dark casters but they are pretty good. It depends on what  role you want them.


Conclusion: Sky Daughter are not that bad But I prefer the overall hexing around as well.


Wyvern: It may be noted that if you have the money and wood you can skip slayers to go for them and cyclopses. Not that I'd ever want to skip the slayers but it could be viable if you can't spare the mercury yet.

Foul wyvern: Actually if I'd chose them it would be to avoid the lighning breath

Paokai: I think their main advantage is they can attack archers behind  enemy formations and disappearing the dead stacks so the enemy can't resurrect them.


Untamed cyclops: Only reason I may not get them is exactly their double edged special They work well with chieftains, low initiative.  


Good job frostwolf
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frostwolf
frostwolf


Famous Hero
livin' in a bottle of vodka
posted January 20, 2008 11:53 PM

Quote:
Nice review.
One correction: The Bloodeyed cyclops reduces enemy luck by 3, not morale.


Right, don't know what I was thinking. Correction has been applied.


Quote:
Nice review, just two things - Warmonger does 200% damage during retaliation, and Slayer is trash metal.


Doesn't the description say it does once and a half it's damage?
And I was using metal as a generic term, but yes, I stand corrected.  

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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted January 20, 2008 11:55 PM

Warmongers health is the only one which is great in the orcs lineup, all the rest are terrible, and saying that enemies will always focus on other troops and leave warmongers alone is wrong, When all other units are dead they have to attack them, and at level 2 bloodrage they get unlimited retaliation. which results in serious kills, Especially if your creeping and the only units you place on the field are warmogners and all the enemys are melee
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Anakrom
Anakrom


Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
posted January 21, 2008 12:01 AM

Quote:

Doesn't the description say it does once and a half it's damage?


Yeah, but look here - http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/toe_stronghold_creatures.shtml#CREATURE_ORC_WARMONGER
It seems that they planned to give them 150% retal, but they changed it in the end, because page seems to be up-to-date, version 3.0.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 21, 2008 12:07 AM
Edited by Elvin at 09:49, 21 Jan 2008.

@Roy
I know but it still would make little tactical sense not to focus on the slayers and cyclopses first. Heck even the earth daughters. Of course it's up to the situation, I'm generalizing.

Qp awarded. Would be a good idea to put the headlines in bold so that it's easier to read
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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted January 21, 2008 11:25 AM

Quote:
If they are frenzied they'll hit you with half damage which is very important.


Why should someone put Frenzy on Centaurs?
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 21, 2008 11:51 AM

You have probably never seen what marauders can do with frenzy. For one they will not attack you and their first attack can be really devastating. Secondly they will cripple or greatly reduce the nearest unit's rage and last the retaliation will probably kill them.

Centaurs are the first thing you must take care of because they'll keep shooting. Then cyclopses, slayers/executioners and maulers if the opponent has them.
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frostwolf
frostwolf


Famous Hero
livin' in a bottle of vodka
posted January 21, 2008 12:03 PM

Quote:

Qp awarded. Would be a good idea to put the headlines in bold so that it's easier to read


Thank you Elvin. And sorry about the bold thing, since it was such a long post I originally wrote it in bold, but it got lost when I copied it. I'll try and fix it.

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kermit
kermit


Known Hero
Soul hunter
posted January 21, 2008 12:04 PM
Edited by kermit at 12:16, 21 Jan 2008.

Very nice overview congrats!

I'd like to add a few situations where I found some upgrades definitely usefull:

Witch Doctors: generally less usefull than the trapper, they still come in handy when fighting spell casters. Although their ability is not very reliable if it works it can save you tons of trouble vs seraph's devine vengeance for one, liches decay or mages fireball. While distracting could work on a hero the chances are dramatically low so it's best used against strong casters. As an example one time divine vengenace took out nearly 30 of my cylcopses after they killed half the heaven army... needless to say I wish I had the witch doctors with me back then to at least attempt to divert the spell.

Warmonger: An increadibly tough unit when in numbers, 500 of these guys at lvl 2 blood rage absorbed nearly all of a 50 titan shot, wich killed only 10 warmongers ... although once they go below lvl 1 rage they start to suck badly.

Sky daughters: I like to have a small stack of these for casting slow/haste, they're better at the job than earth daughters since they start with 12 mana and can eat goblins too. For me it's sometimes crucial to have faster turns on my key stacks (cylcopse/centaur) than having another melee unit. And if you cast with earth daughters they seem to join the fight too late to be really usefull.

Chieftains: Now these guys are deadly cylcop accelerators if split in several stacks of 60+. With 2 stacks of these a nice stack of untamed cylcopses a good morale and word of the chief, I was able to do the following against an academy player with similar lvl and numbers defending his castle:

Cylcopses break the gate and get good morale, chieftains give them +0.6 ATB and make them act again, cyclops rush inside the fortifications and kill all rakshas+mages+golems in one blow, hero's word of the chief + chieftains makes cyclops act yet again even before the titans had a chance to make a move, cyclops kill the titan stack. That's 3 cyclops moves in a row ... deadly. I did something similar to take out around 250 titan guardians the other day with 50 untamed or so.


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frostwolf
frostwolf


Famous Hero
livin' in a bottle of vodka
posted January 21, 2008 12:17 PM

So now that I have reviewed the creatures, what do you guys think? Where would you rate the stronghold faction? Is it mediocre, is it good, do they suck? And how do they fare compared to other might factions? Better than haven, or worse, for example.

My personal belief is that with bloodrage and their large numbers, the barbarians are really tough. They get problems against dark magic and magic overall, so there is the question of shatter magic. Is it worth it? Is only shatter dark worth it?

For example, I played against academy once, even tough I didn't have any shatter magic skill, he summoned a ton of elementals, a phoenix, and kept raising his dead; But no magic shattering skill means more combat skills, which means tougher army, which means I still beat him in the end, despite his non stop summoning.    

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 21, 2008 12:35 PM

That's because you need more than summoning to win a good might faction. Personally I'd rate it amongst the best factions because of adaptability  and being good from earlygame to lategame. Especially in maps where you get extra dwellings and memory mentor. Does not depend on chance, mage guilds or mana, with ballista and tent you can creep non-stop. Of course to be fast it's a race to get flaming arrows AND warmachines but you'll get them soon anyway.
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pinkspear
pinkspear


Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
posted January 21, 2008 10:24 PM

I agree with Elvin, and I think Orcs are the best might based town, they can easily defeat Haven too. Very easy acces to triple flaming ballista, and more than one playable hero/strategy completely gives them the advantage. But imho they need careful skill management, and if you don't have war machines it's essential to know how to creep without serious losses.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 21, 2008 10:27 PM

Or basically avoid shooters/casters until you have good chances No they can creep well through attack too, just not as fast. Btw I have never tried, can you battle dive on a ballista?
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frostwolf
frostwolf


Famous Hero
livin' in a bottle of vodka
posted January 21, 2008 10:40 PM

Don't know if you can battle dive on the ballista, but I've noticed that somehow griffins are cannon fodder for most units. I don't know, they just seem to die so damn fast...

Anyway, I think they're a really powerful faction. And has anyone tried using Kilghan with diplomacy in conjecture with the slave market? I don't know how much that would work, but it's a thought.

And what final thing: how fast do you generally build the fort, considering that numbers are a strong point of the orcs? I mean, do you favour lots of units of the first tiers, or do you prefer units of (almost) all tires, but fewer of them (because of building the fort upgrades after the dwellings)?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 21, 2008 10:47 PM
Edited by Elvin at 22:49, 21 Jan 2008.

Ideally I'd aim for castle in week 2 but if you don't start with fort I'd just go for the higher dwellings(except wyvern).

Edit: Anyway such questions are better suited for this thread.
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