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| Thread: New retro-suggestion | |
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darklord_1984
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 09, 2008 08:26 AM |
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New retro-suggestion
IMHO, Heroes 2 is one of the best out of its series, next to H3 and even surpassing H3 in some aspects
Some retro-suggestions are
1. Scrap the need to upgrade two tiers or two branches for ALL units. From what I see, some creatures are just CRAP, worst of all they don't mesh into the storyline nor mythologies and don't give any satisfaction in gameplay. Practically they are created there for the sake of being there. Some of the names are atrocious(Not mentioning names)
So the suggestion is -> Have some units remain unupgradable. Have some mix of units that can upgrade once and some that can split into branches and last but not least, bring back double upgraders (I.E. Your Green,red,black dragons in H2, though it need not be dragons since green has been taken by sylvan etc, but the concept itself)
Some new suggestions are
-> Have the same spells for different schools of magic. E.g. Healing spells can be both in light and in Earth and maybe fire(think warmth, cauterization), and u'll automatically cast the highest proficiency level out of the 3. Haste in light? Maybe as a blessing, but why not include it in fire
And finally
-> Have the same creatures for different towns! Yes.. humans races overlap in real life, so do they. Maybe in some their "Master" town, they can be upgraded, but in the subservient town, they could be only restricted to basic tier (Think minotaur slaves in Dungeon, and upgradable in Tauren race for e.g.). A small inspiration was from warlords battlecry 3, plaguelords have access to upgraded zombies whereas undead per se, was used as a basic workhorse. The griffin could be in the new Aviak town? (Then we can also scrap the nonsensical "filler" units just to make a race whole
Whaddya think?
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Andrelvis
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 09, 2008 02:32 PM |
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I agree with everything you said, in fact I have had the same opinions for some time... it would make the game more organic. Some creatures should have three alternate upgrades (for example, Green Dragon upgrading to either Emerald, Crystal or Gold Dragon), others should have none. I only don't agree with the idea of having overlapping creatures upgrade only in their "main" town. What would be interesting though is having them with different upgrades in each town. For example, the Hydra upgrading to Chaos Hydra in Fortress (swamp) and to Deep Hydra in Dungeon.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted February 09, 2008 03:06 PM |
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Quote:
1. Scrap the need to upgrade two tiers or two branches for ALL units. From what I see, some creatures are just CRAP, worst of all they don't mesh into the storyline nor mythologies and don't give any satisfaction in gameplay. Practically they are created there for the sake of being there. Some of the names are atrocious(Not mentioning names)
All the creatures fit into the storyline somehow, loosly or not. What do you think doesn't? And names can be easily changed.
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So the suggestion is -> Have some units remain unupgradable. Have some mix of units that can upgrade once and some that can split into branches and last but not least, bring back double upgraders.
I don't think you can remove upgrades, that's not a revival of retro themes, that's just stepping backwards. I do liike the idea of upgrading multiple times though.
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Have the same creatures for different towns!
We already do (See dragons) but I don't think this will improve anything a great deal. The factions are all very unique, having creatures interchange between them would be just cheating to not have to bother to fill races in.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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ruby3ye5
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 09, 2008 03:46 PM |
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Going retro
I think the idea of having some creatures unupgradable yet some can have double upgrades like Heroes 2 is... BRILLIANT. It will make the game more organic and has more variations into it.
Just for some idea. I think it is best to combine this retro style with Heroes 5 TotE such as there are towns that have 2 alternate upgrades, combined with normal upgrades and unugradables.
Its for the sake balancing and variation in the gameplay. Nice idea!!
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Andrelvis
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 09, 2008 05:20 PM |
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Quote:
We already do (See dragons) but I don't think this will improve anything a great deal. The factions are all very unique, having creatures interchange between them would be just cheating to not have to bother to fill races in.
But if some tiers of some factions have alternate dwellings like HoMM IV it would work without taking away diversity. And it wouldn't be very costly on production either, as it would be the same unit used on another town. Let's say for example, that the Haven can produce tier-4 Griffins. Now, the Dungeon could build either one of two dwellings in tier-4: one for Dark Raiders and one for Griffins. But what if the player changes his mind later and wants the creature he didn't choose? A "demolish building" option could be added 
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted February 10, 2008 09:31 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 09:39, 10 Feb 2008.
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He, new here, but this is the post that finally got me interested enough to join. I don't have much experience with many of the HoMM games (have HoMM3 only, with WoG, have played bits of 2 and 4), but I was on the Celestial Heavens forums when this sort of thing was going on about HoMM5.
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So the suggestion is -> Have some units remain unupgradable. Have some mix of units that can upgrade once and some that can split into branches and last but not least, bring back double upgraders (I.E. Your Green,red,black dragons in H2, though it need not be dragons since green has been taken by sylvan etc, but the concept itself)
This idea, or something like it was polled on the original Celestial Heavens forum, and as I recall, gained wide support. I'd also like add that some HoMM4 style exclusive creatures could add to the fun (Vampire/Lich for example), and even have a few of them having upgrades.
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-> Have the same spells for different schools of magic. E.g. Healing spells can be both in light and in Earth and maybe fire(think warmth, cauterization), and u'll automatically cast the highest proficiency level out of the 3. Haste in light? Maybe as a blessing, but why not include it in fire
In HoMM3, Magic Arrow and Visions are both universal spells, being available across every school, though I think a few more could be good (summon Faeries could be earth, air, or water, depending on how you think).
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-> Have the same creatures for different towns! Yes.. humans races overlap in real life, so do they. Maybe in some their "Master" town, they can be upgraded, but in the subservient town, they could be only restricted to basic tier (Think minotaur slaves in Dungeon, and upgradable in Tauren race for e.g.).
Not so hot on this, or at least not much. Griffen (Gryphon) I think could be either Haven or Sylvan, and humans could be in several apart from Haven (Sylvan, Fortress, Dungeon, etc.), but I get the feeling that such things wouldn't be as smooth now as they would have been in past games.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted February 10, 2008 10:30 AM |
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There are a lot of bad things about HV and unnecessary things but the two-tier creatures isn't one that I've noticed at all.
No reason to take it out.
As for the overlapping of creatures: that just becomes repetitive and is unnecessary, doesn't really add much to the game. The towns (in HIII especially) are very unique and should stay that way, that's what I love the most about Heroes.
Although HV having an extreme amount of elves has already started to do this and I basically think it misses the entire point of Heroes.
Giving an elf a different weapon shouldn't qualify it for a different creature, let alone enough to make a few towns out form them.
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John says to live above hell.
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booboo
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 11, 2008 06:48 PM |
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right. I agree with that. It's cool to have a sylvan faction in h5 based on the elves, but the nival staff should really tickle their brains and need to come up with original/myth based creatures to go in those factions. It's not nice to see a dark elves faction full of dark elves.
two-tier creatures work best for me, but it's not about an extra skill or palette swapping. homm it's about diversity and strategy.
peace 
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 11, 2008 08:48 PM |
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Quote:
There are a lot of bad things about HV and unnecessary things but the two-tier creatures isn't one that I've noticed at all.
No reason to take it out.
As for the overlapping of creatures: that just becomes repetitive and is unnecessary, doesn't really add much to the game. The towns (in HIII especially) are very unique and should stay that way, that's what I love the most about Heroes.
Although HV having an extreme amount of elves has already started to do this and I basically think it misses the entire point of Heroes.
Giving an elf a different weapon shouldn't qualify it for a different creature, let alone enough to make a few towns out form them.
 You understand what Alci and Elvin don't!  Humans having different troops is one thing, but for other races it becomes overdone and boring, and they take up spaces that could be filled with more interesting creatures.
Although I disagree that alternative tier upgrades are good for ALL creatures. For some creatures it's merely forced because other creatures have it. For example, there is no justification for a zombie upgrade.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted February 11, 2008 09:13 PM |
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Quote:
right. I agree with that. It's cool to have a sylvan faction in h5 based on the elves, but the nival staff should really tickle their brains and need to come up with original/myth based creatures to go in those factions. It's not nice to see a dark elves faction full of dark elves.
How about a HoMM3 style Dungeon with a few exclusive (HoMM4 style) Dark Elf units, so you could maintain a half Dark Elf style town, or a totally normal one.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 12, 2008 08:58 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
There are a lot of bad things about HV and unnecessary things but the two-tier creatures isn't one that I've noticed at all.
No reason to take it out.
As for the overlapping of creatures: that just becomes repetitive and is unnecessary, doesn't really add much to the game. The towns (in HIII especially) are very unique and should stay that way, that's what I love the most about Heroes.
Although HV having an extreme amount of elves has already started to do this and I basically think it misses the entire point of Heroes.
Giving an elf a different weapon shouldn't qualify it for a different creature, let alone enough to make a few towns out form them.
You understand what Alci and Elvin don't! Humans having different troops is one thing, but for other races it becomes overdone and boring, and they take up spaces that could be filled with more interesting creatures.
Although I disagree that alternative tier upgrades are good for ALL creatures. For some creatures it's merely forced because other creatures have it. For example, there is no justification for a zombie upgrade.
Now let me explain something to you guys!
A town being unique is not about having 7 different races mingled together in it. Yes, different skins are cool, but when it comes down to it, the skins of the Battle Dwarf and Grand Elf in Heroes 3 are as much different - and as much alike - as those of, say, the Defender and the Thane in Heroes 5. You just got your minds locked up on the fact that the Heroes 5 units both are Dwarves, which makes them "too much the same" in your minds.
Facts are, that in Heroes 5, every unit has a unique combination of skills. That makes every unit unique. I need not delve too much into the details of units in Heroes 3 for you guys I gather, but we probably all know that the range of abilities was far narrower in that game.
Furthermore, in Heroes 5, every faction has a unique skills that opts for a unique style of play. This was also not the case in Heroes 3, where the only thing that separated each class was the starting skill and skill and stat distribution.
Taking these two things into account, from an objective point of view, there is little grounds for saying that Heroes 3 had "more unique factions" or "more unique creatures". Of course, one is entitled to a personal oppinion about the schemes of the factions, and not everybody like the monoracial approach, but saying that the creatures are "all the same" just because they are all dwarves now is simply wrong in terms of gameplay. The rest is just a good deal of subjective feelings and nostalgia, probably grounded in the fact that you "grew up" with Heroes 3 rather than Heroes 5.
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What will happen now?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 12, 2008 01:50 PM |
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Nostalgia aside, the main issue I have is this:
For creatures like the Basilisk, a specific ability like petrifying gaze, is NATURAL. For creatures like the various dwarves and elves, the abilities are MADE UP because they are REQUIRED to have unique abilities.
In that light, I loathe the multiple units of the same race in every faction. Because none of it comes truly natural with the creature.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted February 12, 2008 04:22 PM |
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Quote:
Nostalgia aside, the main issue I have is this:
For creatures like the Basilisk, a specific ability like petrifying gaze, is NATURAL. For creatures like the various dwarves and elves, the abilities are MADE UP because they are REQUIRED to have unique abilities.
In that light, I loathe the multiple units of the same race in every faction. Because none of it comes truly natural with the creature.
While I do not want to discuss this, could not help but notice this
Moon, do you imagine someone making an elf a level 7, eh ? Just think: they see in the night, are camouflaged most of the time, have excellent archery, melee (including no penalty), much stronger than any human... These are NATURAL abilities. But that makes the game stupid  Every race can separate itself into castes, occupying, say, spots of a caster/shooter/walker/melee fighter. Different training, different skills.
It is just that people do not want to realize that there must be a reason to BASE your creatures on. Story-wise, concept-wise, no matter. Simply people fail to see why the differences should be there.
And to those that hate racial system: GO PLAY KING's BOUNTY@!
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