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| Thread: [Modding Discussion] Might and Magic classes |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted March 24, 2008 09:02 AM |
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I think a mod that creates 2 different classes for each race with really different development paths could raise the whole game to a higher level with much more strategic possibilities and deeper gameplay. It might even be able to gain a popularity similar to wog for h3 if it is carried out well. (I don't believe such mods exist for h5 at the moment)
Yes I know, lots of people in the Altar of Wishes forum have discussed this so interest is something it'll already have.
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Somewhere in January I discovered another way of creating 2 classes by copying classes. How i did this is no longer relevant because your hex-editing method is superior but i would like to share some ideas/issues I ran into when starting to work on it (I have now long stopped working on it):
1. The first thing I realised is that the largest part of the work is not editing the skills.xdb but it is the creation (and design) of 16 ingame skillwheels. The skill system from h5 is just too complex to be enjoyable without ingame skillwheels (or something similar) especially when you add another 8 classes.
Well unfortunatly it is hard to work with if you don't have a skillwheel and I have no idea how Aurelain made such a great thing, but we could release a table to those who have need of it.
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2. The second thing is the heroes in h5 are not suitable for 2 classes. From all haven heroes for example none of them has a face of a cleric/priest. So the options are: creating a lot of extra portraits yourself or switch to the h4 portraits from the heroes of axeoth.
Well Haven is a problem, Academy has some "strong" looking Heroes who could switch over to the Might class (I.E. Galib, including his spec) Dungeon has some "mighty" Heroes too, Inferno has Magicy  Heroes too (Alastor Marbas Nymus and more) Necropolis has a few as well (Kaspar, Orson) Sylvan has a few to be Magic Heroes, but not enough, Fortress is the easiest, because it orients on both, we can split it  I don't think we should make a Barbarian second class as they cannot learn new spells in their Town  but think about did Heroes IV have a second Stronghold class?
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3. We all know it is impossible to create new abilities or specials, so a priest will still have counterstrike but I still found a great way to make the classes very different from each other. if you look at the secondary skills there are always a 2/3 might oriented and 2/3 magic oriented (special!) features.
For example war machines:
magic: remote control, tremors
might: triple ballista, brimstone rain, runic machines (can be used for other factions too under different name)
Or destructive magic:
magic: secrets of destruction, ignite
might (more towards defending against magic): mana burst, sap magic
So if you restrict the classes to the might or magic features you can create two very much different classes for each race. It could also help a team to get easily an agreement about how the skillwheels look like (if they agree about the system of course).
That's the idea I had as well (and don't forget about the glorius Shatter Dark, Lgiht etc.)
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Because my motivation for modding was weakening at the time and I overlooked the amount of work I stopped working on it. I realised only a team could manage it, even more if you also want to create 8 new generic models
It could be something like this:
priest/cleric: based on necromancer
heretic: based on agreal
witch/shaman: based on kujin
alchemist: based on zehir
rune warrior: based on king/wulfstan
assassin/overlord: the current generic model/ realag/shadya for warlock
druid: the current generic model/ findan for ranger
I have some very cool ideas for this as well:
Haven - Cleris: Markal's Model (Has no syce )
Inferno - Heretic: Maybe Necromancer on a Nightmare (Face changed to a Demonic one)
Necropolis - Dread Knight: (Renegade?)Knight Model recoloured to Necro colours
Academy - Alchemist: Godric's Model
Dungeon - Overlord: Agreal's Model with the Staff replaced with a Sword.
Fortress - Maybe Captain or Marshal (Rune Warrior sounds wierd) Wulfstan's Model.
Sylvan - Herbologist (Druid's a creature): Findan's Model
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So far the core of my ideas, i would like to input more and dig up some of my old work if people are interested in moving forward, I can only not promise to do any xdb coding, because I lost the motivation at this moment, but it may come back. i will surely keep tracking this.
Well we'll see how this will turn out
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[edit] I have sended an im to vokial to request changing the title of this thread.
Great! 
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Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted March 24, 2008 12:40 PM |
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I can go and get started on texturing, if we're already working on this.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 24, 2008 12:42 PM |
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Well Haven is a problem, Academy has some "strong" looking Heroes who could switch over to the Might class (I.E. Galib, including his spec) Dungeon has some "mighty" Heroes too, Inferno has Magicy Heroes too (Alastor Marbas Nymus and more) Necropolis has a few as well (Kaspar, Orson) Sylvan has a few to be Magic Heroes, but not enough, Fortress is the easiest, because it orients on both, we can split it I don't think we should make a Barbarian second class as they cannot learn new spells in their Town but think about did Heroes IV have a second Stronghold class?
You're right the bad factions may do quite well. A solution for the haven town could be not to make a cleric class, but a renegade class or paladin class instead, these could be knights more dedicated to dark magic or magical capabilities. I think it's good to follow the philosophy from h3, which means a haven magic class is not as good with magic as a warlock or wizard, while an academy might class is not as mighty as a knight.
For the barbarian town I thought it could be fun to make a h3 fortress inspired male/female split up. The female class (witch or shaman) class could be more oriented toward war cries or shatter magic. If you look at the current skillwheel barbarians have a 2% chance to learn shouting, so for barbarians it is not a very common skill.
About the skillwheels:
They don't need to be as good as the ones from aurelain, but I think there should be at least a button with access to 16 tga pictures with a table or wheel that gives the basic info. Otherwise you would get the same thing as h5 vanilla, where it was just a mystery for people how the skill system was constructed. Examining the skillwheel mod should give the info how this can be done.
@Cepheus:
I would personally wait before there is some more certainty they are going to be used. On the other hand, even if this mod will never be created there might be a purpose for them (unique models/campaigns?) so if you like to do it go ahead.
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2ndHero
Famous Hero
Floppy Slayer
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posted March 24, 2008 06:30 PM |
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I could also do textures, but I think I'm going to wait until you manage to do something.
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Help and suggestions needed here.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted March 25, 2008 10:25 AM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 10:35, 25 Mar 2008.
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Its nice that you think about names, but any ideas for the gameplay? Of course the different classes will start with different stats (might or magic).
You cant create different skills or skill build (the wheel) for every class.
What is possible is to start with indefinite hero class (universal hero class), and later with the game progress to choose your skills specialization (like 3 specializations per race, its just 3 different variants to build your hero - might, magic or hybrid. Ex. knight, priest, paladin for Haven)
Anyway mod like this one is:
1. Great project
2. A lot of time
3. Pain if its not successful at the end
Other problem:
We have 9 heroes per race. If we want 2 classes we need 5 per type (balance for the classes), we have to add 1 more hero per race. This note is important only if your main ideas is to create 2 type of classes per race, and not 1 indefinite hero class.
And after all we'll need new final abilities (Might class with Arcane Omniscience huh )
The initiative is good, because this is Heroes of might and magic, in H5 we have Heroes of might or magic.
I'm volunteer to help you guys, but only if we are doing something real (and if I have free time).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 25, 2008 12:22 PM |
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What is possible is to start with indefinite hero class (universal hero class), and later with the game progress to choose your skills specialization (like 3 specializations per race, its just 3 different variants to build your hero - might, magic or hybrid. Ex. knight, priest, paladin for Haven)
I always liked the h4 class-system but this is not possible. It will be h3-like. Kronos is able to add classes with hex editing. by editing the skills.xdb and classes.xdb it is then possible to create 16 new skillwheels, but it is not possible to create new skills.
So the distinction between the classes will be the development of primary and secondary skills (chances they popup when leveling up) and the skills available for every class (read earlier post about the idea
Kronos and I had).
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3. Pain if its not successful at the end
Yes I think therefore one important test need to be done at the start.
the 16 classes must be unlocked in the exe and then it should be tested if it works stable. (probably by copying the knight class 8 times in the tables with a small modification to seperate them)
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We have 9 heroes per race. If we want 2 classes we need 5 per type (balance for the classes), we have to add 1 more hero per race. This note is important only if your main ideas is to create 2 type of classes per race, and not 1 indefinite hero class.
Campaign heroes should make up for that, I think there can be 6 for every class. In fact it is extremely easy to attach any possible hero
to the new class system after it is created. You only need to change one line in the .xdb + balance the primary skills, so mods like the campaign hero unlocker or heroes of axeoth can be adjusted in ~1 hour work.
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And after all we'll need new final abilities (Might class with Arcane Omniscience huh)
Yes this is a problem, because it is not possible to create new skills, but we can use all of them 2 times, so an alchemist can have ultimate protection as ultimate. The last solution will be to use not any ultimates at all. Another problem is they will all have the same unique skill and most of them are magic or might oriented (irresistable magic).
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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted March 25, 2008 02:07 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
What is possible is to start with indefinite hero class (universal hero class), and later with the game progress to choose your skills specialization (like 3 specializations per race, its just 3 different variants to build your hero - might, magic or hybrid. Ex. knight, priest, paladin for Haven)
I always liked the h4 class-system but this is not possible. It will be h3-like. Kronos is able to add classes with hex editing. by editing the skills.xdb and classes.xdb it is then possible to create 16 new skillwheels, but it is not possible to create new skills.
So the distinction between the classes will be the development of primary and secondary skills (chances they popup when leveling up) and the skills available for every class (read earlier post about the idea Kronos and I had).
Indeed, Hex editing allows us to add new Hero Classes and new skillwheels for each one I have already done it with ToK's Planeswalker and it works fine. Don't forget the Primary skills (attack, defence etc.) increase as well so every Might should focus on either Attack or Defence while Magic Heroes focus on Knowledge and Spellpower.
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We have 9 heroes per race. If we want 2 classes we need 5 per type (balance for the classes), we have to add 1 more hero per race. This note is important only if your main ideas is to create 2 type of classes per race, and not 1 indefinite hero class.
Campaign heroes should make up for that, I think there can be 6 for every class. In fact it is extremely easy to attach any possible hero
to the new class system after it is created. You only need to change one line in the .xdb + balance the primary skills, so mods like the campaign hero unlocker or heroes of axeoth can be adjusted in ~1 hour work.
Huh? Doesn't every faction start with eight Heroes? 
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And after all we'll need new final abilities (Might class with Arcane Omniscience huh)
Yes this is a problem, because it is not possible to create new skills, but we can use all of them 2 times, so an alchemist can have ultimate protection as ultimate. The last solution will be to use not any ultimates at all. Another problem is they will all have the same unique skill and most of them are magic or might oriented (irresistable magic).
I agree, we shouldn't use any ultimates at all they are nearly impossible to obtain and are way too strong, let's use some good sets of regular abilities instead.
Here are my ideas for which Heroes should be in which class:
Haven: Knight: The ones that aren't Clerics
Cleric (Based on specs): Maeve, Rutger(?), No idea, maybe we could give two others: Vessel of Elrath/Dragonblessed/Paragon Knight?
Inferno: Demon Lord: Deleb, Grawl, Nebiros, Jezebeth.
Heretic: Alastor, Grok, Marbas, Nymus
Necropolis: Dread Knight: Kaspar, Lucretia, Orson, Naadir.
Necromancer: Deirde, Raven, Vladimir, Zoltan.
Dungeon: Overlord: Kythra, Sorgal, Vayshan, Yrwanna
Warlock: Eruina (And extra shot is magic like), Lethos, Sinitar, Yrbeth.
Sylvan: Herbologist: Dirael, Vinrael, Wyngaal, Talanar.
Ranger: Anwen, Gilraen, Ossir, Ylthin.
Academy: Alchemist: Galib, Havez, Narxes, Razzak.
Wizard: Faiz, Jhora, Nathir, Nur.
Fortress: Might: Ebba, Erling, Ingvar, Karli.
Runemage: Brand, Helmar, Inga, Svea.
Stronghold: No two classer for they can't learn spells.
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Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'
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2ndHero
Famous Hero
Floppy Slayer
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posted March 25, 2008 05:02 PM |
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I think Grawl should be a heretic and Grok a demon lord. Also Talanar and Ylthin could be switched. As for the extra heroes, remember that some of the beta heroes could be clerics.
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Help and suggestions needed here.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted March 25, 2008 05:23 PM |
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I don't like the actual form of this mod. This way we'll just change the original hero to two another ones, each with half of these skills. that could be nice variety for some cmpetetive league, but for me, the casual player, it's pointless.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted March 25, 2008 06:51 PM |
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I still think, that the universal class idea is better, at least this my point, it will give more creativity, possibilities and etcs, also the classes will be more definite, and it automaticly add 1 additional hybrid class. This was one of the top secret GotP ideas, new double-triangular skills system.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted March 25, 2008 06:58 PM |
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The mod would have more bearing with new classes introduced IMO rather than sticking to the original one and playing around with its skill wheel exclusively. Nobody normally wants to play with a mod that alters the original game too drastically, and the purpose of this thing, after all, is to add both Might and Magic classes, not to turn the ones we have into a mix of both (which is sort of already the case anyway).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 26, 2008 12:43 AM |
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I don't like the actual form of this mod. This way we'll just change the original hero to two another ones, each with half of these skills. that could be nice variety for some competetive league, but for me, the casual player, it's pointless.
This isn't true, there is no question of taking half of the skills, in the current idea there is only a division in the real special features like warlocks luck. i'm sure it can be fun for a casual player just like it was in h3. when you pick a magic class for haven you learn much more magic skills and you will have something like 10 spellpower and 10 knowledge at a high level and very few might skills. That means you will bring the haven creatures into battle in a very different setting. You will be able to play all eight factions in a different way than you did before.
@vokial:
I agree with you, but it isn't possible, there many ideas in the altar of wishes that would be superior, but the are all not possible.
This is the modders workshop, this is reality.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted March 27, 2008 09:40 PM |
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but it isn't possible
You did not get the idea but it doesn't matter
Anyway good luck guys 
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 28, 2008 12:57 PM |
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You did not get the idea but it doesn't matter
Why doesn't it matter?, if you make a clear explanation of how your advanced class system looks like and how it can be created, people might be interested in making it.
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MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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BMage
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 22, 2008 08:52 AM |
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The idea is good. I think there should be a stronghold "magic" class, more inclined in skills toward shout, enlightment, shatter magic,etc. as for stats, i think there should be one primary stat(most cances of getting it in a level up)for each class-a might stat(attack, defense)for might hero and a magic stat(spellpower,knowledge)for magic heroes,for example:knight-defense,cleric-knowldge.
as for skills, i agree there are some "magic" abillities in might skills(cold steel,remote control,power of endurance) an vise versa. also, maybe we can put the three shatter magic basics(corrupt, detain,weaken)in the magic skills for might heroes, and the three "master of" basics for magic heroes.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 08, 2008 06:59 PM |
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*bump*
A bit of thread Necromancy here.
Cepheus directed me to this thread from the Questions Topic, and I must say I think the prospect of such a mod to introduce dual Hero classes is thrilling.
If I understand Kronos' post on previous page right, one of the things that would be time-consuming is defining new skill-trees for each class, but I don't think that would be necessary: The skill trees post TotE offer both Magic and Might builds for each class already. For each alternative class, it should be sufficient to change the possibilities of skills to occur on level up plus the primary stat distribution.
Also, as a start, I think instead of putting a lot of work into developing new skins and looks for Heroes (that end up being more or less crude to look at anyway) it would suffice to simply split the current Heroes. Thus, some of the excisting Heroes already seem to fall in the alternate class based on start skills and specialty:
Knight: Maeve, Elaine? > Cleric
Demon Lord: Graul, Alastor, Jezebeth > Heretic
Necropolis: Kaspar, Orson > Death Knight
Dungeon: Sorgal, Kythra, Veyshan > Overlord
Sylvan: Dirael, Vinrael, Ylthin > Warden/Healer
Academy: Havez, Razzak, Galib > Alchemist
Fortress: Ebba, Ingvar, Karli > Defender
I would be glad to help work out new skill probability distributions for alternative classes if someone would put some effort into making the programming.
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What will happen now?
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