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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Final verdict on alternate upgrades?
Thread: Final verdict on alternate upgrades? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
phoenixreborn
phoenixreborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted April 15, 2008 06:09 AM

Poll Question:
Final verdict on alternate upgrades?

Well Tribes has been out for awhile and doesn't seem like it's getting patched any time soon.  Even if it is the game is pretty much in it's final form.

So my question here is do you like the alternate upgrade system?  Does it seem like a good blend between the hereos 4 and heroes 3 system?  Or does Regrading ruin it for you?

Or is it inconsequential and maybe it doesn't make much difference if you have a harpooner or a skirmisher?

Or maybe you find it to be a key to your strategy that can turn games for you?

We'll see how the poll/discussion goes.

Responses:
Alternate upgrades are great
Alternate upgrades are terrible
It should be more like heroes 4
I'd prefer a new concept (explain)
It's ok but it needs tweaking
I'm not sure
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 15, 2008 08:39 AM

I think Alternate Upgrades is a pretty good feature, but it deffinitely needs tweaking. In far too many cases (at least half of the creatures!) the one upgrade is simply far superior to the other. Sylvan is a case of point: Who ever picks War Dancers, Master Hunters, or Emerald Dragons anymore?

In principle, the idea is good, but having two upgrades where one is offensive and the other more offensive simply doesn't work.
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zamrai
zamrai


Adventuring Hero
Moonlight Melody
posted April 15, 2008 08:53 AM

Most of the cases I prefer standard upgrades (though, arcane archers rulez!) but alternative are also great possibility.

For example imo Emerald dragon is still better against Dungeon (50% immune for earth magic) than alternative. It all depends on strategy and enemy so I'm very happy with this idea of alternative.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 15, 2008 09:13 AM

There is a big difference most of the time where picking one over the other can change your battle strategy. A few notable examples are chieftains, witch doctors, champions, high druids. However I'm with Alc, they need tweaking.
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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted April 15, 2008 12:27 PM

Quote:
Who ever picks War Dancers


I Think they look really better than Wind Dancers, plus the War Dance Combo is really cool (I'm not denying that Agility is way too powerful however).

All in all it depends on the upgrade we are talking about.

-Academy: Gremlin Saboteurs are better than Master Gremlins.

-Dungeon: Stalkers are different but certainly more useful than Assassins. Blood Furies and Blood Sisters are roughly the same save for Initiative and HP, personally I always go for Blood Sisters these days.

-Haven: Crossbowmen make Marksmen redundant, unless you get the Unicorn Horn Bow (or use some tack that relies on Precise Shot).

-Inferno: Horned Grunts, Firehounds are certainly better than the alternative upgrades.

-Necropolis: Rot Zombies are better tanks and have that nice aura about them.

-Sylvan: Wind Dancers, Arcane Archers are way better (no contest about these upgrades).

-Fortress: Battle Ragers and Thunder Thanes are better (except when you need Firelords for Armaggedon). I actually favour Shieldguards (shieldwall is awesome) and Magma Dragons (Magma Shield) over the alternatives.

-Stronghold: Marauders and Warmongers are way better IMHO, the others are not so clear cut.

Sylvan and Inferno benefit a lot more from alternate upgrades, nevertheless some are rather well balanced. Druids are a fine example of this, Elders are more offensive (Call Lightning) but High Druids have the Channeling ability.

A bad example of alternate upgrades are those that I listed above, the ones for which you don't lose anything whatsoever (almost) if you pick them instead of the others.
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2ndHero
2ndHero


Famous Hero
Floppy Slayer
posted April 15, 2008 03:44 PM

I think horned overseers and grunts are kinda balanced, since overseers have better defence and speed.

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HartZa
HartZa


Known Hero
watchout graveyards!
posted April 15, 2008 04:21 PM

War dancer seems much inferior to wind dancer, but I didnt liked result after enemy hero teleported his war dancer to the middle of my army and hitted(dancers turn was unluckily next) 4 units with luck.

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tb5841
tb5841


Hired Hero
posted April 15, 2008 05:05 PM

I still pick Emerald Dragons. There are a few cases where the upgrades aren't balanced, but I think most of them are.

Some could have been made much more interesting (Titans) though...

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sith_of_ziost
sith_of_ziost


Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
posted April 15, 2008 09:54 PM

Quote:
-Fortress: Battle Ragers and Thunder Thanes are better (except when you need Firelords for Armaggedon). I actually favour Shieldguards (shieldwall is awesome) and Magma Dragons (Magma Shield) over the alternatives.



I personally enjoy the Warlords better than the Thunder Tanes. Since (please be right) Dwarven Luck is through Soldier's Luck, Flamewave triggers with a nice product, since it has no range. Battle Ragers don't have Berserk, so I like Berserkers better. Shieldguards are better for attack, and Mountain Guards are good for sieges. Magma Drags and Lava Drags are almost equal, one for defense and one for attack.

Wardancers are still quite nice when attack into a group. As for the Titan, there really wasn't much decision to go on. I think Ubival did the right thing.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 15, 2008 10:43 PM

Quote:
As for the Titan, there really wasn't much decision to go on. I think Ubival did the right thing.


What about a melee alternative? That would have been really interesting.
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sith_of_ziost
sith_of_ziost


Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
posted April 15, 2008 10:53 PM

But then, the legendary Tier 7 Shooter would have a way to...not be a Tier 7 shooter. Its just that, keeping it at range gives it its proper title. Plus, the Djinns, Rakshasa, Golems, and Gargs are all completely melee (save for the djinns, but you know), and putting a fifth melee in would just make Academy seems too might-oriented.

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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted April 15, 2008 10:53 PM

A lot of favored alternatives change significantly when facing a human player though, One can guess where stalkers are and thunder thanes become a lto less useful.
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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted April 15, 2008 10:58 PM

Quote:
Since (please be right) Dwarven Luck is through Soldier's Luck


Not correct. It's Magic Resistance --> Dwarven Luck. I think Firelords look better but the alternate upgrade is way more powerful (lightning is more reliable when you want to affect several enemy units).
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 15, 2008 11:13 PM

Well there's also the part where they have a higher initiative and can deal double damage(compared to thunder upgrade) to shooters such as hunters. Making them also vulnerable to fire.
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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted April 16, 2008 02:09 AM

Quote:
and can deal double damage(compared to thunder upgrade)

Actually it's even more, Flamestrike deals 120% damage.
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DarkShadow
DarkShadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted April 16, 2008 07:26 AM

I can say thing about necro alternative's:

Both are used (exept plague zombie's) and have same strenght's

the power is not excatly at necropolis army *points tome of dark magic*

Even with alt's our 7 levels stink bad,the cost is high and unit is weak

actualy I could make comparison list:

1.skeleton warrior's are good for late-middle,archer's for early creeps

2.zombie's are only exeption,they are so bad already the aura is only thing that make's me buy festering crypt and use them as cannon fodder  or shield to shooter's

3.spectre's are usefull if you know there is going to be alot of caster's and they have speed advantage as well,while revenant's (the funny pink ghost's) do not have such usefull ability they beat spectre's with damage so both are usefull.

4.nosferatu's can be good with soldier's luck and such,they are very equal to vampire lord's since torpor does not trigger alway's,only that they do not have no retalition ability wich make's them to be hit more often and lord's are more effective while fighting other necromancer's and on the other hand lord's have no ret ability but nosferatu's have higher hp and damage,so again they are equall

5.here come's my favorite part:Liche's,the lichmaster has raise dead ability and that mean's he WILL make unit's give more pain to enemy,however there is a drawback  that it lower's the raised unit's hp thus making it weaker.Now the Archlich will lay barrage of decay and vulnuarebility spell's,While they BOTH make terrbile shooter's and their melee combat is zero.Lichlord's have hp and dmg but no real dark spell's,while the archliche's have good array of spell's and death cloud they cannot resurrect their troop's or kill many with single hit as lichmaster.Archliche's have tiny advantage during midgame while master's should be used in late siege's.

6.Reaper's?They made banshee have a horrible ability and less stat's,that does not mean they are useless,they can be used on heavy morale dependant troop's and deal base damage while vampire's finish them off.Wraith's should be used for better opponent's such as dungeon,with their harm touch and good stat's they will break through any shield formation.Not much else here,Banshee's for morale and midgame,wraith's for damage,stable defense,mustard and harm touch

7.The trouble dwelling.Buy bone dragon's if you can afford the first building,then you should avoid the second.Spectral's and ghost's are way too expensive.But if compared in combat the spectral's are better in my opinion,ghost dragon's lack any significant advantage,and their ability is lousy.I suggest to avoid both up's and go for bone dragon's,if it is neccesary to get them then pick spectral's.




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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 16, 2008 08:32 AM

Let's not turn this into another "compare the alternate upgrades" thread. We have one of them. I think the idea of this topic was to discuss the overall feature rather than strengths and weaknesses of specific upgrades.
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DarkShadow
DarkShadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted April 16, 2008 01:25 PM

overall feature is:There is no comparison,you can't compare the alt's with regular's.simple as that.

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phoenixreborn
phoenixreborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted April 16, 2008 03:07 PM

Quote:
Let's not turn this into another "compare the alternate upgrades" thread.


It's tough to get away from that.

What really surprises me is that there is only one vote for it should be like heroes 4.  Before Tribes came out there were many voices saying that there should be stronger consequences and choosing one path should close another.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 16, 2008 03:11 PM

And also a lot of justified criticism. I'm so glad it did not get to this.
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