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triumph
Anti-race based town
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posted July 09, 2008 07:13 PM |
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I completly DO NOT agree. Tech-trees/town levels makes the game much more balanced and better. Like TheDeath just said, do you really think its fun to have lvl 7s in the end of week one? -.-
In my opinon, race-based towns are better. There should be 3 of the main race and the rest monsters ( or another race creature with a mount).
For instance, the Fortress line-up is very boring and could be modified into this ( i made this in 10 seconds...) :
1. Wolf-Fenrir Worg/White Worg
2. Spearwielder-Harpooner/Skrimisher
3. Bear Rider-Whitebear Rider/Blackbear Rider
4. Yeti-Berserker Yeti/Brawling Yeti
5. Runepriest-Rune Keeper/Flame Watcher
6. Roc-Frostbird/Firebird
7. Fire Wyrm-Magma Wyrm/Lava Wyrm
xerox hit the nail on the head with this one. ive got to say...i actually agree with it. I think this discussion has FINALLY come to a close. the line-up was made on the fly (as noted) but the idea is there. it pleases both the prejustice-basest racists and those who like the theme based castles.
thread = /locked
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 09, 2008 07:16 PM |
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Quote:
the line-up was made on the fly (as noted) but the idea is there.
So where is the "theme-based" are harder than "race-based" (even though most of what you people gave examples were also not at all appropiate for a race-based town!)
And besides, Academy is already a non-race-based town -- why not have a full race-based town to compensate 
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 09, 2008 07:26 PM |
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Quote:
To answer this, I have to say: Why shouldn't we?
But let me elaborate (again). Look at the Haven line-up: In Haven, we see 5 Human units and 2 Magical Beasts. Does anybody ever complain about this? No. Why not? Because it's been so since Heroes 3 Heroes 1. My point is then: Why should Elven towns be different? Or why Dwarven? Isn't it reasonable to imagine, that the army of any sentinent creature is likely to develop something like:
- An infantry unit (Squire, Sword Dancer, Fury, Defender).
- An artillery unit (Archer, Hunter, Assassin, Spierwielder).
- A cavalry unit (Paladin, -, Grim Raider, Bear Rider).
- A mage unit (Priest, Druid, Matriarch, Rune Priest).
Ok, like I said no one complains about Haven, because it agrees with a theme, and not just the human race. AND THE HUMAN IS NOT A MYTHICAL CREATURE. Haven has a theme of medieval, and holy. There really isn't anything else that would make since in that castle. And Haven has been the same as Heroes 1. And the reason why Heroes shouldn't be the way you want it is because that is not the heroes way!
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One great thing about Heroes 1, 2, and 3, was that they only used well-known creatures from mythology and general fantasy, they did not use weird new self-invented units or monsters. That was one major fun aspect of these games, you could easily recognize all the creatures.
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The problem here is that you wouldn't know in which town they were since it made basically no sense without knowing it by heart. So you know a harpy is a harpy, but why in the town Dungeon along with all the others? (this is only saying that your argument is weak and you still need to 'browse' through the game/story or whatever to make sense out of it)
I really don't think that is what A5ado meant. What he meant was that having the units look just like each other makes it hard to tell what level creature they are. Which is much more important than knowing what castle they belong in. You don't wanna see a level 4 dwarf on the adventure map, thinking it's a level 1 dwarf when all you have is level 1's. Also, anyone with the slightest amount of intelligence should be able to know what "themed" castle the creature belongs to, like in Heroes 3.
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triumph
Anti-race based town
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posted July 09, 2008 07:33 PM |
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trying to come up with 8 GOOD race based castles would lead you to this fantastic race, the trogdolytes!:
Grundlox
trogdolyte lurker/trogdolyte spearweilder
trogdolyte baneling/trogdolyte overseer
trogdolyte blindling/visually impaired trogdolyte
trogdolyte mageician/trogdolyte trickster
Bill "trogdolyte" Moyers/Fiendish trogdolyte
Burley trogdolyte/Hungering trogdolyte
Superior trogdolyte/Devilish trogdolyte
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 09, 2008 07:33 PM |
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Edited by Zazu1 at 19:40, 09 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
Quote:
In my opinon, race-based towns are better. There should be 3 of the main race and the rest monsters ( or another race creature with a mount).
For instance, the Fortress line-up is very boring and could be modified into this ( i made this in 10 seconds...) :
1. Wolf-Fenrir Worg/White Worg
2. Spearwielder-Harpooner/Skrimisher
3. Bear Rider-Whitebear Rider/Blackbear Rider
4. Yeti-Berserker Yeti/Brawling Yeti
5. Runepriest-Rune Keeper/Flame Watcher
6. Roc-Frostbird/Firebird
7. Fire Wyrm-Magma Wyrm/Lava Wyrm
xerox hit the nail on the head with this one. ive got to say...i actually agree with it. I think this discussion has FINALLY come to a close. the line-up was made on the fly (as noted) but the idea is there. it pleases both the prejustice-basest racists and those who like the theme based castles.
thread = /locked
Wtf Triumph?! I can't tell if your being sarcastic or not. That is definitely a a big improvement from what Heroes 5 has but there are still some things I have a problem with. One being, the spearwielder is still there. I would want to see it called something different. perhaps dwarf? Anyway I guess its not that bad besides that. Just as an example, this is taken directly from my line-up of what would be ,in my opinion, the perfect castle where dwarves are:
Bastion: Neutral, Creatures of the frozen tundra and Mountains, Dwarves
1) Dwarf - Battle Dwarf -> Dwarven Defender ground
2) Dísir - Fylgja -> ? caster
3) Black Bear - White Bear -> ? ground
4) Snow Monster - Yeti -> Frozen Yeti ground
5) Battle Maiden - Valkyrie -> Valkyrie Priestess flyer - flyer -> flyer/caster
6) Rune Priest - Rune Keeper -> Rune Patriarch caster/archer
7) Wurm - Lindworm -> Frost Worm ground/underground attack
8) Nemean Lion - Chimera -> Monstrous Chimera ground - flyer/three headed attack
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 09, 2008 07:43 PM |
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And the reason why Heroes shouldn't be the way you want it is because that is not the heroes way!
Sorry but Nival seem to have a different opinion, and H5 is the latest in line, so your argument doesn't hold. 
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I really don't think that is what A5ado meant. What he meant was that having the units look just like each other makes it hard to tell what level creature they are. Which is much more important than knowing what castle they belong in. You don't wanna see a level 4 dwarf on the adventure map, thinking it's a level 1 dwarf when all you have is level 1's. Also, anyone with the slightest amount of intelligence should be able to know what "themed" castle the creature belongs to, like in Heroes 3.
WTF? If you see a creature, and you right-click, and you see "Arcane Archer", doesn't that mean that you know it's the lvl3 unit from Sylvan Castle? I hope you're not talking about noobs that don't know the game, are you?
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Grundlox
trogdolyte lurker/trogdolyte spearweilder
trogdolyte baneling/trogdolyte overseer
trogdolyte blindling/visually impaired trogdolyte
trogdolyte mageician/trogdolyte trickster
Bill "trogdolyte" Moyers/Fiendish trogdolyte
Burley trogdolyte/Hungering trogdolyte
Superior trogdolyte/Devilish trogdolyte
Thanks for ignoring whatever I said about a random line-up. If you think that's how a race-based line-up is made, then I suggest you don't use your assumptions from theme-based castles, because race-based towns are much more, shall I say, elaborate to make, and the line-up needs to have a lot more connected to culture, maybe social attributes (e.g: Dwarves don't like outsiders), purpose or role, and perhaps even the philosophy of the faction.
But keep on going people, give ignorant examples of random-based towns, that only proves theme-based ideas are easy to make, because i have explained already too many times that race-based towns are A LOT MORE than that!!
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Wtf Triumph?! I can't tell if your being sarcastic or not. That is definitely a a big improvement from what Heroes 5 has but there are still some things I have a problem with. One being, the spearwielder is still there. I would want to see it called something different. perhaps dwarf? Anyway I guess its not that bad besides that. Just as an example, this is taken directly from my line-up of what would be ,in my opinion, the perfect castle where dwarves are:
Bastion: Neutral, Creatures of the frozen tundra and Mountains, Dwarves
1) Dwarf - Battle Dwarf -> Dwarven Defender ground
2) Dísir - Fylgja -> ? caster
3) Black Bear - White Bear -> ? ground
4) Snow Monster - Yeti -> Frozen Yeti ground
5) Battle Maiden - Valkyrie -> Valkyrie Priestess flyer - flyer -> flyer/caster
6) Rune Priest - Rune Keeper -> Rune Patriarch caster/archer
7) Wurm - Lindworm -> Frost Worm ground/underground attack
8) Nemean Lion - Chimera -> Monstrous Chimera ground - flyer/three headed attack
You already have Academy with only one creature from its race -- how about you give a town with 6 dwarves and 1 creature to compensate?
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 09, 2008 08:10 PM |
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Well, the rune priest is a dwarf too! And the Hero would obviously remain a dwarf on a mammoth. Which, I forgot to mention is the only thing good to come out of that castle. In my opinion, the coolest looking hero. But, that should be enough! I guess, It wouldn't be too painful to throw a dwarf on the bears since there are 8 tiers of creatures. But that is where I draw the line, it's not necessary to have anymore.
What I think they should do it make 2 different games. One being Heroes of might and magic 6 and the other being Heroes of Humans, Orcs, Elves, and dwarves. Haha, im jokin. But I certainly wouldn't mind.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 09, 2008 08:14 PM |
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What I think they should do it make 2 different games. One being Heroes of might and magic 6 and the other being Heroes of Humans, Orcs, Elves, and dwarves. Haha, im jokin. But I certainly wouldn't mind.
How about: making a Heroes of Might and Magic 6 that follows the pattern of HoMM 5 and let HoMM 3 be dead.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 09, 2008 08:44 PM |
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@Ceph
Quote:
Dwarves are a secluded race, that doesn't give an excuse to fill the whole town with them. In every mythology, including Nival's, Dwarves are not exactly well-known for reproduction. So how exactly do we come up with hundreds of individual Dwarven units more than, say, Orcs?
Because unlike orcs, dwarves are known to live for hundreds of years and be able to put a heck of a fight most of that time.
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I mean, one could do the same thing with the Academy, since they're also a fairly secluded race who don't rely on outside influences. But how then do we end up with a town that isn't race-based at all?
You missed the part when I said that dwarves are skilled enough warriors to fight their own battles. Mages are clearly not like that, they don't rely on their physical strength, weapon/armor smithing and runes, the mages rely on their spells and their creations/summons, while mostly staying behind because a scholar and a scientist has no place on the battlefield.
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And if these Dwarves happen to worship fire, the "usual theme" of mountain-dwelling in other game worlds doesn't really explain why these ones would choose to dwell primarily in snowy mountains - where fire is usually extinguished - rather than, say, tunnels beneath the earth like the Dark Elves.
From I understand, most of them do live in tunnels beneath the earth like the Dark Elves and have encountered them several times. And the dwarves prefer to live under the mountains because that's where their mines are usually situated.
@zazu
Quote:
AND THE HUMAN IS NOT A MYTHICAL CREATURE.
All the more reason to put only one human in the game, at most (according to what you're saying), because humans are boring and could be replaced by more interesting mythical creatures.
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Haven has a theme of medieval, and holy.
And Sylvan has a theme of forest and harmony, but you still consider it a race faction.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 09, 2008 08:48 PM |
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Ok, like I said no one complains about Haven, because it agrees with a theme, and not just the human race. AND THE HUMAN IS NOT A MYTHICAL CREATURE. Haven has a theme of medieval, and holy. There really isn't anything else that would make since in that castle.
Well then, let's try to bring the other factions out of mythology and into reality, shall we?
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And Haven has been the same as Heroes 1. And the reason why Heroes shouldn't be the way you want it is because that is not the heroes way!
*sigh* See this is one of the arguments that really make me wanna bash the ones that call the Heroes 5 approach for unimaginative and uncreative. Enough said on that!
And Death said it pretty well above. That was not the Heroes way, but now it is ... like it or not, you better get used to it. 
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What will happen now?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 09, 2008 08:50 PM |
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How about: making a Heroes of Might and Magic 6 that follows the pattern of HoMM 5 and let HoMM 3 be dead.
Because there are aspects of HoMM 3 that need to return.
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Eccentric Opinion
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triumph
Anti-race based town
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posted July 09, 2008 09:13 PM |
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for the race arguement then, now say you could some how come up with 8 uniquely different and interesting forms of elfs and dwarfs, what 8 races would you have? Although the Trogelite castle was a joke, in all seriousness what would your 8 towns be that create 56 unique creatures? I'm not asking for a list of 56 creatures but a general guideline of the races. You all seem so set in this racist town stuff, so sell it to me.
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 09, 2008 09:15 PM |
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Edited by Zazu1 at 21:18, 09 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
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Ok, like I said no one complains about Haven, because it agrees with a theme, and not just the human race. AND THE HUMAN IS NOT A MYTHICAL CREATURE. Haven has a theme of medieval, and holy. There really isn't anything else that would make since in that castle.
Well then, let's try to bring the other factions out of mythology and into reality, shall we?
Well this makes me chuckle. My answer is no thanks. This game is not about reality, if it was we would be playing civilization. Which maybe you race-based people would like since its incredibly realistic. And I think it is a very good game. When I want fantasy I play Heroes, when I want reality I play Civilization
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And Death said it pretty well above. That was not the Heroes way, but now it is ... like it or not, you better get used to it.
No! I refuse to let this happen to Heroes! I will fight the war! And it looks like from recent polls that we are winning!
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 09, 2008 09:21 PM |
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Well this makes me chuckle. My answer is no thanks. This game is not about reality, if it was we would be playing civilization. Which maybe you race-based people would like since its incredibly realistic. And I think it is a very good game. When I want fantasy I play Heroes, when I want reality I play Civilization
You don't seem to have a problem with Haven 
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And it looks like from recent polls that we are winning!
I smell some kind of trickery around here
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 09, 2008 09:21 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 21:35, 09 Jul 2008.
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like it or not, you better get used to it.
And now we thank Krohn for the miracle of modding. 
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You already have Academy with only one creature from its race -- how about you give a town with 6 dwarves and 1 creature to compensate?
Because we already have Inferno which has 5 racials and 2 beasts, as with Haven. Necropolis has 6 racials and 1 beast. They are good towns because their main race is varied (well, Haven isn't, but that's somebody else's debate, not mine). Dwarves are not varied.
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No! I refuse to let this happen to Heroes! I will fight the war! And it looks like from recent polls that we are winning!
Ah relax. Race-based towns are fine, look at Inferno. It's just when they take their Fortresses too far that one ought to worry.
@Geny
Quote:
Because unlike orcs, dwarves are known to live for hundreds of years
Exactly, which is why there ought to be less of them than other races, judging from the patterns we've already seen. Elves are more long-lived, but you don't see a million of them walking around. Equally, there are many more humans as their lifespan is not as lengthy.
There's not exactly an excuse.
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You missed the part when I said that dwarves are skilled enough warriors to fight their own battles. Mages are clearly not like that, they don't rely on their physical strength, weapon/armor smithing and runes, the mages rely on their spells and their creations/summons, while mostly staying behind because a scholar and a scientist has no place on the battlefield.
Just because you can fight your own battles does not mean you refrain from taming creatures to support your army. Look at the Orcs.
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From I understand, most of them do live in tunnels beneath the earth like the Dark Elves and have encountered them several times. And the dwarves prefer to live under the mountains because that's where their mines are usually situated.
But most of them do not live under the mountains, they live in tundras.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 09, 2008 09:21 PM |
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No! I refuse to let this happen to Heroes! I will fight the war! And it looks like from recent polls that we are winning!
Too bad Ubisoft and Nival are the true "powers" and not this poll
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 09, 2008 09:35 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:37, 09 Jul 2008.
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The thread is pointless but interesting.
Everybody has their own opinions, so we are not getting anywhere
But there is +80% more chance that H6 will follow H5s race-based towns then H3s "mixed creatures that makes no sense" towns if not 3DO is magically reborn and buys back HoMM.
Also i loved H3, it was my favorite game for a long time, so dont think that im a anti pre-H5 person
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 09, 2008 09:40 PM |
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I think everybody here loved Heroes 3. I loved Heroes 3. I'd even go as far as saying that in some ways, it was more durable than Heroes 5 - at least when it comes to large maps. That being said, the variations you had in making your strategy was not as large in Heroes 3 as in Heroes 5, and for that reason, I think Heroes 5 is the better game.
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What will happen now?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 09, 2008 09:59 PM |
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Exactly, which is why there ought to be less of them than other races, judging from the patterns we've already seen. Elves are more long-lived, but you don't see a million of them walking around. Equally, there are many more humans as their lifespan is not as lengthy.
There's not exactly an excuse.
Why there ought to be less of them?
If there are 1k of orcs born every 50 years and only 200 dwarves, but there are also 800 orcs who died every 50 years and only 50 dwarves, then why in the long run there can't be more dwarves than orcs?
And the elves are stargazing poets, I doubt many of them even know how to "reproduce".
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Just because you can fight your own battles does not mean you refrain from taming creatures to support your army. Look at the Orcs.
Orcs are actually not a good example because the only "tamed" creatures are Wyvern and maybe Cyclops, but I see your point. Well, there are the bears and the allied dragons, and I guess I agree that adding a wolf might be a good idea, but on the other hand, the dwarves are so good at fighting that they must've established an army before they encountered many beasts worth taming and being conservative they just stuck with it... yeah, I know that you could easily put in a lot of tamed beasts without signifficantly altering the dwarves' lore, but this is already a matter of taste nothing more.
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But most of them do not live under the mountains, they live in tundras.
........Well, in that case it sucks.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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A5ado
Tavern Dweller
Master of Logic
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posted July 10, 2008 01:22 AM |
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I would make this more lengthy but there are now about 3 pages of posts to respond to so I don't feel like going through all of it to point out the flaws in your logic. And I don't have to since its all been said already by me and others and its just getting redundant - but you won't listen.
One thing I will respond to is the inferno and necropolis race thing. You say they are good races because they are 'varied'. Since they are 'varied' THEY ARE NOT A RACE. Race means they are not varied, there is a big difference between 6 dwarfs and 6 demonic creatures. Demonic is a THEME, dwarf is a race.
Also, it would take a lot more to walk to the store, buy a D&D manual, look through it and choose creatures that have similar themes, characteristics, and backgrounds, and then make a lineup, then it would to make 6 dwarfs.
And TheDeath, that joke trogylite castle was not 'random' at all, it was the opposite. They were all trogylites, and that is exactly what the dwarf castle was: all the same creature with different names.
And how does knowing the name of a creature mean you know what castle its from? I know that Treants are from sylvan, but what about axe-weilder, brawler, killer, warrior, those names are general and could refer to anyone from any castle. The themes make it easier to figure out which castle the creature is from, AND which level it is.
Just to let you know, you were a noob at some point. When you first play the game you are a noob. If you memorize all the creatures, where they are from, and what level they are, then how complicated or confusing all the creatures are really doesn't affect you. The difference is how hard it is to memorize all the creatures. Frankly, the race-based approach makes it harder to memorize it all. Obviously you will respond by just saying I'm wrong, but I'd like to see how you refute my claim (not that I don't have a good Idea of what you're gonna say)
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This thread is pages long: 
