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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 10, 2008 08:17 PM |
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Quote:
I also want to point out their names. I think A5ado already mentioned this but I guess I'll just address this one more time. Defender!? Brawler?! Warrior?! Slayer!?.. wtf. What do these names tell you about the creature. Absolutely NOTHING.
Oh yeah, the name "Wyvern" tells you so much more about the creature (except the fact that it's a wyvern)... you can immediately figure out the stats and level of the creature by looking at this name
Or Foul-Wyvern, or Hydra, or Harpy... yeah, I completely figure out the stats/abilities from these names!
And can you tell me ONE (1) game which has a dwarf like the Brawler? THERE ARE NO GAMES LIKE THAT. That makes it the most original and imaginative creature. And that's a good sign btw
Oh yeah, I forgot, if it was a wolf (an example) it would've been so much more interesting, right? Wolves are so original...
Oh and @Alc, yes I think the Thanes are a clan among Dwarves, because the dwelling is named Clan Halls
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 10, 2008 10:12 PM |
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Quote:
Well, I feel that these units look very similar because they are the same race. Basically the only difference is what they wear and what weapons they use.
Let's bury the hatchett on this issue soon, but seriously - what separated one unit from the other in Heroes 3 except what they wore and what weapons they used? It was not because they graphics were so amazing they you could make out the racial differences between, say, the Grand Elf and the Markman.
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What will happen now?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 10, 2008 11:36 PM |
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even the people on the theme-based side disagree with me so I theres no point in arguing.
If this refers to me, just a clarification: I'm not on the theme-based side nor the race-based one, I want neither extreme (which is why I agree with your arguments on the Fortress, and their arguments against whatever else).
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I seem to recall someone mentioning that one of the campaign storylines tells us that they are a clan among the Dwarves. Can anybody confirm this?
I don't recall any specific mention of this in the campaigns, though I might be wrong since I haven't looked over every single one of the HoF dialogues.
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These should not be creature. If I tell you the creature is a dwarf, what do you think?
If we were to do as you suggest to all towns, it would also be necessary to call the Haven's army "Human Pikeman", "Human Cavalier", "Human Archer" etc. Get what I'm saying?
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triumph
Anti-race based town
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posted July 11, 2008 04:37 AM |
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i do not want to see "human pikeman", i dont want to see "elf archer" That is too bland and the reason I dont want to see race castles. Also, if all the creatures are humanoids, that makes for a very boring fight and boring army. The fun of the battles are having unique monsters and creatures. Racial towns would nullify this advantage to what made this game so popular.
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A5ado
Tavern Dweller
Master of Logic
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posted July 11, 2008 04:46 AM |
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I want to point out that it seems you are choosing which castles to call race based castles and which castles to call theme based castles based on what you like. You accuse zazu1 of making exceptions by liking haven (which he admits to) but you won't admit that you are making exceptions.
Since you like inferno and necropolis and those other castles you choose to call them race based. I don't see a pit lord being in the same family as a succubus, thats just ridiculous. Maybe they are the same phylum, or genus, but not species.
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 11, 2008 04:59 AM |
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I would be perfectly fine with my line-up having yeti, chimera, wyrms, valkerie and the story would say that there all dwarves in disguise. It really wouldn't bother me.
See? You're not against 'races' you are against "looks" 
Umm..... I guess so? I'm sure how to respond to that. As you know I don't play the game for the story, so yea it doesn't matter to me. I guess we have reached a compromise, Every unique creature that is not part of the core race can be the that race, wearing the costume. YAY! 
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Oh yeah, the name "Wyvern" tells you so much more about the creature (except the fact that it's a wyvern)
Umm.. Well it tells you exactly what creature is so yes. If you haven't played heroes would you know what a Brawler is? And I want to make one thing clear. If being original means becoming dull, I don't want it.
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Well, I feel that these units look very similar because they are the same race. Basically the only difference is what they wear and what weapons they use.
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Let's bury the hatchett on this issue soon, but seriously - what separated one unit from the other in Heroes 3 except what they wore and what weapons they used? It was not because they graphics were so amazing they you could make out the racial differences between, say, the Grand Elf and the Markman.
Alc, I'm surprised to see something like this from you. Although, you are against me on this subject, I had respect for you since you always backed up your arguments and made a lot of important points. But if you can't see how much more variety heroes 3 had than heroes 5, you don't know what this argument is about.
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If we were to do as you suggest to all towns, it would also be necessary to call the Haven's army "Human Pikeman", "Human Cavalier", "Human Archer" etc. Get what I'm saying?
Ugh! I am tired of people bringing up Haven! I will not repeat myself on why this castle is fine as it is.
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a5ado
Tavern Dweller
Master of Logic
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posted July 11, 2008 05:07 AM |
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Quote:
If we were to do as you suggest to all towns, it would also be necessary to call the Haven's army "Human Pikeman", "Human Cavalier", "Human Archer" etc. Get what I'm saying?
I get exactly what you are saying. And just to make sure, you do know that we have been saying that this is exactly what we don't want. And this is why we don't want it. Becuase all of the castles would follow this general formula. And if there were only 2 racial creatures in each castle the storyline could easily support it. In case you haven't noticed, dwarves aren't real, and neither are most of the other creatures. And TheDeath, you could easily say that the bears are sentient and can talk and interact, it really doesn't matter. Realism isn't exactly a goal here. the 'Tamed' excuse could be used, but I would agree that it would be a more interesting culture if the animals or beasts were sentient and had culture. Look at Narnia, the beavers talked, it was interesting, no one complained.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 11, 2008 07:43 AM |
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Quote:
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Let's bury the hatchett on this issue soon, but seriously - what separated one unit from the other in Heroes 3 except what they wore and what weapons they used? It was not because they graphics were so amazing they you could make out the racial differences between, say, the Grand Elf and the Markman.
Alc, I'm surprised to see something like this from you. Although, you are against me on this subject, I had respect for you since you always backed up your arguments and made a lot of important points. But if you can't see how much more variety heroes 3 had than heroes 5, you don't know what this argument is about.
Ok I'm sorry if I offended you here, but my point still stands. What I was trying to say was simply this:
Heroes 3 had:
Marksman: Little man wearing white and blue clothes shooting his crosbow twice.
Grandelf: Little man wearing grey clothers shooting his longbow twice.
Heroes 5 has:
Defender: Little man wearing tartan clothes and fighting with helmet and great shield and hammer.
Brawlers: Little man wearing tartan clothes with ponytail fighting with odd two-handed knive things.
In either game, you can claim that the two units are "repeats" of each other, because obviously, there are similarities. However, in neither case, I think it's fair to actually say they are repetitions of each other - in both games, the units are simply way different when you look at how they look and what they do in game, and I dare say it requires only casual knowledge of the game to learn this difference.
Therefore, my point is that when you see "repetition" in Heroes 5 but not in Heroes 3, that's simply caused by your "prejudice", and with this I mean that you watch the game from a perspective where you compare it to Heroes 3 rather than evaluate it on its own premises. Yes, there are differences from Heroes 3, and yes, I liked Heroes 3 better in some ways as well - but hell, I played Heroes 3 constantly for more than 5 years!
However, in judging Heroes 5, we sometimes need to stand back a bit and forget the past. If we evaluate everything with the attitude that "the old ways were perfect", obviously, every change will come as unwelcome. That's what I'm trying to avoid.
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What will happen now?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 11, 2008 02:10 PM |
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@Zazu1:Quote:
Umm..... I guess so? I'm sure how to respond to that. As you know I don't play the game for the story, so yea it doesn't matter to me. I guess we have reached a compromise, Every unique creature that is not part of the core race can be the that race, wearing the costume. YAY!
I don't think so, that would be the most childish town ever and that's exactly the thing I'm trying to avoid with the race-based towns.
@A5Ado:Quote:
I get exactly what you are saying. And just to make sure, you do know that we have been saying that this is exactly what we don't want. And this is why we don't want it. Becuase all of the castles would follow this general formula. And if there were only 2 racial creatures in each castle the storyline could easily support it. In case you haven't noticed, dwarves aren't real, and neither are most of the other creatures. And TheDeath, you could easily say that the bears are sentient and can talk and interact, it really doesn't matter. Realism isn't exactly a goal here. the 'Tamed' excuse could be used, but I would agree that it would be a more interesting culture if the animals or beasts were sentient and had culture. Look at Narnia, the beavers talked, it was interesting, no one complained.
Well it seems HOMM5 tried a better angle at that. And what I said, if bears talked, it would be interesting (at least from a fantasy perspective). The problem is the following:
Whether bears talk or not, a town should not have so many different types of beasts together. Thus, a bear town could be ok in the case they were sentient. But not a "random animal" soup (which includes bears as well).
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 11, 2008 02:21 PM |
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*sigh*
Since I don't see any bright future for this topic, I'll end the debate right now.
Some people like theme-based, some race-based, so the best IMO is to make a compromise (some also said they want this!). That's perfectly fine with me. This means that every town should have half of the creatures race-based and half other "themed" creatures. So, let's analyze H5:
Haven, Necropolis and Inferno don't count, as nobody has problems with them.
Sylvan - 3 out of 7 -> perfect!
Dungeon - 4 out of 7 -> perfect!
Stronghold - 3 out of 7 -> perfect!
Fortress - 6 out of 7. I know, this is a purely race-based town, but it is in perfect contrast with Academy which is a theme-based town, since it has 1 out of 7 race-based creatures.
So let's just say H5 is the best and all next Heroes should be made like this
 End of Debate
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted July 11, 2008 02:24 PM |
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Griffins can talk. Not sure if it matters but I just wanted to throw it out there.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 11, 2008 03:10 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 15:35, 11 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
I want to point out that it seems you are choosing which castles to call race based castles and which castles to call theme based castles based on what you like. You accuse zazu1 of making exceptions by liking haven (which he admits to) but you won't admit that you are making exceptions.
Since you like inferno and necropolis and those other castles you choose to call them race based. I don't see a pit lord being in the same family as a succubus, thats just ridiculous. Maybe they are the same phylum, or genus, but not species.
There are no accusations here thank you, this is a friendly debate. I am not trying to bedevil you into believing me or whatever...
Picking and choosing am I? Look, to make things clearer I will show you in plain English which towns I consider to be which, then we can take a look at where the "exceptions" lie.
HAVEN
Core race: Humans. 5/7 Humans.
"Beasts": Griffin, Angel.
Verdict: RACE-based.
ACADEMY
Core race: Humans. 1/7 Humans.
"Beasts": Gremlin, Gargoyle, Golem, Genie, Rakshasa, Titan.
Verdict: Extremely THEME-based.
SYLVAN
Core race: Wood Elves. 3/7 Wood Elves.
"Beasts": Pixie, Unicorn, Treant, Green Dragon.
Verdict: MIXED.
FORTRESS
Core race: Dwarves. 6/7 Dwarves.
"Beasts": Fire Dragon.
Verdict: Extremely RACE-based.
NECROPOLIS
Core race: Unspecified.
"Beasts": Skeletal Dragon.
Verdict: THEME-based, as there is not even a specific race to go on.
DUNGEON
Core race: Dark Elves. 4/7 Dark Elves.
"Beasts": Minotaur, Hydra, Dark Dragon.
Verdict: MIXED.
INFERNO
Core race: Demons. 5/7 Demons.
"Beasts": Cerberus, Nightmare.
Verdict: RACE-based.
STRONGHOLD
Core race: Orcs. 4/7 Orcs.
"Beasts": Goblin(?), Wyvern, Cyclops.
Verdict: MIXED.
Notice that I have NOT called the Necropolis a race-based town anywhere. Now I did mention there are six racials and one beast, were you to consider the main race Undead, but if you were to take a closer look you would notice that that was a variation argument, not a race-theme argument 
Pit Lords and Succubi being parts of the Demon race is certainly no more ridiculous than saying a Centaur and a Warmonger are of the Orc race (which they are, it is clearly stated in lore as shown by Alc above). We have a fantasy game here where genetics do not reign over everything 
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I get exactly what you are saying. And just to make sure, you do know that we have been saying that this is exactly what we don't want.
Ahem. Page 12:
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Defender!? Brawler?! Warrior?! Slayer!?.. wtf. What do these names tell you about the creature. Absolutely NOTHING. Well the defender must be some unit that defends something, the Brawler must be some unit that brawls? These should not be creature. If I tell you the creature is a dwarf, what do you think? Small, brawn, Big beard, carrying axe. Talks in a Scottish accent.
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Griffins can talk. Not sure if it matters but I just wanted to throw it out there.
Um, no they can't.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 11, 2008 03:34 PM |
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If one were to look at my H6 proposals, one would see a sort of compromise. The towns are mostly theme-based, but the L 7 creature and the heroes are mostly of one race - meaning that the town is just theme-based, but the town as a whole is sort of both theme-based and race-based at the same time. There is a dominant ruling race, and various tamed creatures from the environment. I think that sort of compromise works best. (Except for Haven, of course.)
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Eccentric Opinion
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 11, 2008 06:09 PM |
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In TotE campaign it looks like a Griffin can talk in one of the cut-scenes. I think he meant that.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 11, 2008 06:15 PM |
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No, that was prerelease and is not in the released game.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 11, 2008 07:56 PM |
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I just played the campaign again and it talked.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 11, 2008 09:11 PM |
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Seriously? Whoa, which scenario? Originally I thought it was in the prologue but they "fixed" it up later, so maybe I missed something.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 11, 2008 10:03 PM |
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It is in the begining, i think it even might be the first mission but im not sure
edit: I hate floodprotect -.-
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 11, 2008 11:34 PM |
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Quote:
Heroes 3 had:
Marksman: Little man wearing white and blue clothes shooting his crosbow twice.
Grandelf: Little man wearing grey clothers shooting his longbow twice.
Heroes 5 has:
Defender: Little man wearing tartan clothes and fighting with helmet and great shield and hammer.
Brawlers: Little man wearing tartan clothes with ponytail fighting with odd two-handed knive things.
In either game, you can claim that the two units are "repeats" of each other, because obviously, there are similarities. However, in neither case, I think it's fair to actually say they are repetitions of each other - in both games, the units are simply way different when you look at how they look and what they do in game, and I dare say it requires only casual knowledge of the game to learn this difference.
Well I think this statement is absurd. The difference between The Grandelf and Marksman are much different than The Defender and the Brawler. That is like saying that you can throw lizardman in there, he looks the same. There is a very clear difference. One being human and one being elf. The human belongs in the medieval themed castle, and the elf belongs in the woodland themed castle. The Defender and the Brawler or both dwarves, with different weapons.
Quote:
However, in judging Heroes 5, we sometimes need to stand back a bit and forget the past. If we evaluate everything with the attitude that "the old ways were perfect", obviously, every change will come as unwelcome. That's what I'm trying to avoid.
Well that is exactly the way people felt about Heroes 4. They tried a different approach and most people didn't like it. Therefore, they reverted back to a lot more of a Heroes 3 approach when they made Heroes 5. That is what I want them to do with Heroes 6. I like Heroes 5, don't get me wrong but I would like them to take more of a Heroes 3 approach.
I know obviously everyone doesn't agree with me but I think that it would make a lot of sense to evaluate the game based on the games that came before it. There are many improvements made to the game, but at the same time I felt that the lack of variety of creatures took much of the fun away from the game. I played Heroes 3 constantly as well, but Heroes 5 just doesn't live up to the enjoyment that Heroes 3 provided me. I never said that Heroes 3 was perfect. If that were true than why would I be arguing about this? I would just play that game. Both games are far from perfect. That is why I said that I wanted to see H6 have H3's design and H5's game-play, plus more. Than it would be perfect(or as close to perfect as I can imagine. That is why I called my line-up thread "My Heroes 6 dream", because if they followed that line-up and make it the way I want it, then it would be as perfect as I can imagine. Ever heard of the phrase "If it's not broke why fix it?".
Also, this is my solution. That would make everyone happy, cus this thread is getting redic. It has pretty much been one side saying that variety = good, and the other saying... uh... this has to be a made up fantasy world that makes sense? What they could do is make it the way you want it. Lots of elves, dwarves and what ever. But have all of the different unique and interesting creatures that would fit into the castle as themes as neutral units. That way, it will make it easier to create mods to replace all of the unwanted elves and dwarves with those unique creatures. As long as this can be done, without causing problems with internet play. Which, for the most part, I only play with my friends so they will all do the same. I think everyone everybody can agree that this is the only solution to make everyone happy.
I think that it is time to close this thread, that being said, I think it should be made a sticky so everyone can read it and still vote.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 12, 2008 06:33 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Heroes 3 had:
Marksman: Little man wearing white and blue clothes shooting his crosbow twice.
Grandelf: Little man wearing grey clothers shooting his longbow twice.
Heroes 5 has:
Defender: Little man wearing tartan clothes and fighting with helmet and great shield and hammer.
Brawlers: Little man wearing tartan clothes with ponytail fighting with odd two-handed knive things.
In either game, you can claim that the two units are "repeats" of each other, because obviously, there are similarities. However, in neither case, I think it's fair to actually say they are repetitions of each other - in both games, the units are simply way different when you look at how they look and what they do in game, and I dare say it requires only casual knowledge of the game to learn this difference.
Well I think this statement is absurd. The difference between The Grandelf and Marksman are much different than The Defender and the Brawler. That is like saying that you can throw lizardman in there, he looks the same. There is a very clear difference. One being human and one being elf. The human belongs in the medieval themed castle, and the elf belongs in the woodland themed castle. The Defender and the Brawler or both dwarves, with different weapons.
Actually if you step away from your own blindsiding arguments for a moment you'll see the truth here. Marksmen and Grand elves have the same abilities, and so play out very similarly to each other. The fact that the Defender and the Brawler are of the same race and town on the other hand, doesn't come into it, their abilities and mechanics are completely different from each other.
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