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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted July 14, 2008 03:57 PM |
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ow, nvm, I said that out of context.
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a Demon cultist, meaning that he is part of a sect within the dark elves that worships the power of the demons and their progenitor, the dragon Ourobos, father Of Chaos.
So I drew the wrong assumptions 
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2008 04:54 PM |
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Zerg (Starcraft) is a race too you know?
Yeah, but in that sense, "race" means something closer to "alignment".
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted July 14, 2008 04:56 PM |
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Not necessarily because not everything (especially demons) need to behave like humans in their 'genetics' process (for all we know, they shouldn't have genetics at all). So race is more than just "species" 
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Cepheus
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posted July 14, 2008 05:00 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 17:01, 14 Jul 2008.
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The Zerg and Sheogh Demons are both races, just extremely varied ones. I mean, it's like their evolutionary patterns are completely wild, probably because of a little something we don't have called Magic (or vespene gas  ).
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2008 05:23 PM |
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Not necessarily because not everything (especially demons) need to behave like humans in their 'genetics' process (for all we know, they shouldn't have genetics at all). So race is more than just "species"
Race is synonymous with "species". See "human race".
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The Zerg and Sheogh Demons are both races, just extremely varied ones.
You wouldn't claim that a Zergling and a Destroyer are of the same species. Nor are an Imp and a Devil.
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Cepheus
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posted July 14, 2008 05:29 PM |
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Nor are an Imp and a Devil.
The burden of proof lies with you.
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mvassilev
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posted July 14, 2008 05:33 PM |
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The proof? Just look at them. An imp differs far more from a Devil than any human from any other human. I mean, humans look more or less like each other. So do elves and dwarves (if you ignore Thanes). Not Demons, though.
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Cepheus
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posted July 14, 2008 05:39 PM |
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Okay then, a comparison between Imps and Devils.
SIMILARITIES
-> Both sentient
-> Both red-skinned
-> Both listed as "Demonic"
-> They are summoned through Gating
-> Upgrades take on similar colour patterns
DIFFERENCES
-> Different tiers
-> One is far larger than the other
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An imp differs far more from a Devil than any human from any other human.
Haven't you considered a sort of evolutionary progression? Imps and Devils are two extremes, it's like Imp -> Horned Demon -> Succubus / Pit Fiend -> Devil. Think Pokemon or whatever.
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Not Demons, though.
And take note of the fact that they come from a totally different plane of existence.
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mvassilev
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posted July 14, 2008 06:08 PM |
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DIFFERENCES
-> Different tiers
-> One is far larger than the other
They have a lot more differences than that. Just look at them. Look at their feet, for example. Imps have hooves. Demons have clawed toes. Imps have wings. Devils don't. Imps have long tongues. Devils don't. Imps have a tail. Devils don't. Imps have three fingers and an opposable thumb. Devils have two fingers and an opposable thumb. And just look at the shape of their bodies. Completely different.
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Imp -> Horned Demon -> Succubus / Pit Fiend -> Devil
But Horned Demons aren't much like Imps either.
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Cepheus
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posted July 14, 2008 06:20 PM |
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Aside from graphical differences, can you offer proof given in the game? Any text that states they're not part of the same race?
Gremlins and Goblins sure don't look the same, yet they are essentially the same race.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2008 06:25 PM |
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Aside from graphical differences, can you offer proof given in the game?
Do you need a text to tell you that a chimpanzee is not of the same species as you?
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Gremlins and Goblins sure don't look the same, yet they are essentially the same race.
They look a lot more similar than Imps and Devils. Gremlins basically look like fat Goblins with shorter ears.
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BrennusWhiskey
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posted July 14, 2008 06:25 PM |
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Forget about imps and devils. Everybody knew that they are different. And IMO they are more from one theme than race.
That reason makes theme more interesting - more random creatures, not - elf, big alf and dark elf - that combo is borring.
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Cepheus
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posted July 14, 2008 06:27 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 18:31, 14 Jul 2008.
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Forget about imps and devils. Everybody knew that they are different.
Prove it.
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Do you need a text to tell you that a chimpanzee is not of the same species as you?
Wonderful analogy, but it doesn't answer my question.
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They look a lot more similar than Imps and Devils. Gremlins basically look like fat Goblins with shorter ears.
Warmongers don't look much like Earth Daughters.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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mvassilev
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posted July 14, 2008 06:37 PM |
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Wonderful analogy, but it doesn't answer my question.
To answer your question, there isn't one that I know of, but it's obvious to the point that you don't need one.
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Warmongers don't look much like Earth Daughters.
That's because of how they are formed.
Warmonger = Human + Horned Demon
Earth Daughter = Human + Succubus
And Succubus and Horned Demon are quite different.
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Cepheus
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posted July 14, 2008 06:46 PM |
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To answer your question, there isn't one that I know of, but it's obvious to the point that you don't need one.
If it were that obvious, I wouldn't be contesting your claim. Plenty of books etc. class Imps as a form of Demon.
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And Succubus and Horned Demon are quite different.
If we're following the almighty pattern of logic, Shadow Dragons shouldn't upgrade into Red ones and a yellow-skinned Minotaur shouldn't amazingly turn into a grey one.
These are graphic-based assumptions. You can't base a lore argument upon graphics. Look at Goblins, they differ hugely from Heroes II to Heroes IV and nobody complains.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted July 14, 2008 08:01 PM |
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Warmonger = Human + Horned Demon
Earth Daughter = Human + Succubus
What? I thought that orcs were just humans. (Aside from the experimentation of demon blood by mages)
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mvassilev
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posted July 14, 2008 09:04 PM |
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Plenty of books etc. class Imps as a form of Demon.
Of course an imp is a type of Demon. But "Demon" is not really a race; it's more of an alignment.
Here's the way it goes, from most inclusive to most specific:
World (ex: Ashan)
Faction (ex: Inferno, Haven)
Alignment (ex: Demon, Haven except for Griffins)
Species/Race (ex: Imp, Human)
Job: (ex: Familiar, Archer)
Individual: (ex: a particular Familiar, a particular Archer)
Perhaps "alignment" isn't the best term, but it's the best I could come up with.
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Shadow Dragons shouldn't upgrade into Red ones and a yellow-skinned Minotaur shouldn't amazingly turn into a grey one.
Well, the whole idea of "upgrades" adds an additional level of confusion. But the Horned Demon upgrades into a unit that looks a lot like a Horned Demon, and a Succubus upgrades into a unit that looks a lot like a Succubus. But you don't see a Horned Demon upgrade into a Succubus, do you?
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Look at Goblins, they differ hugely from Heroes II to Heroes IV and nobody complains.
Well, the only difference between H2 and H3 goblins is that the H3 ones are more muscular, and you can't really see what the H4 goblins look like, because they're totally covered in armor. So the comarison does not stand.
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I thought that orcs were just humans.
Well, the blood was from different demons, though. Shamanesses got Succubus blood, Warriors got Horned Demon blood, and so on.
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Cepheus
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posted July 14, 2008 09:19 PM |
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Of course an imp is a type of Demon. But "Demon" is not really a race; it's more of an alignment.
I think perhaps the word you're looking for is a "classification". Maybe a better word than the "Demon race" would be "Hellspawn". The way I see it, Demon is the race and Imp, Devil, Pit Fiend etc are the subspecies, just like Centaur is a subspecies of Orc.
It doesn't matter, we are still not given the hard proof that Imps are not Demons - as I said earlier:
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Nival have made it pretty obvious which units are beasts and which are not, and since Imps and Devils are traditionally known to be "demons" (plus Ashan's excuse for lore fails to contradict this), they're likely part of the same race too.
I mean, we could also make the assumption that Thanes are not part of the Dwarven race, or that Centaurs are not part of the Orc race, or that Pixies are part of the Wood Elven race, but we're not certain about this and none of it seems likely, so let's err on the side of caution
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But you don't see a Horned Demon upgrade into a Succubus, do you?
No, but I do see an Archer upgrade into a Priest 
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Well, the only difference between H2 and H3 goblins is that the H3 ones are more muscular, and you can't really see what the H4 goblins look like, because they're totally covered in armor. So the comarison does not stand.
The hero named Gretchin, who carried over from Heroes III, is a Goblin. My point still does stand: you can't base a lore argument entirely on graphics.
Woot for Quote Wars!
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BrennusWhiskey
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posted July 14, 2008 09:28 PM |
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@Cepheus: With your twisted logic we should prove you difference between angels and devils. It is the same race right?
Imps are not devils, like devils are not angels. (I mean they have so many differences...)
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Cepheus
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posted July 14, 2008 09:31 PM |
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Angels and Devils are the same race? My twisted logic? Justify your claim that Imps are not part of the Demon race, as Devils are.
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This thread is pages long: 
