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Daystar
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Back from the Dead
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posted July 15, 2008 02:15 PM |
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Goblins are Orcs...
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Cepheus
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posted July 15, 2008 02:27 PM |
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But elves and dwarves act that way.
They are from Ashan. Demons aren't.
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But we're talking about rules of classification created by humans. They either fall under "race/species" or "alignment".
There's no hard proof that Imps and Devils are not part of one race. Different subspecies, sure, but not totally separate races.
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But Zerg Drones change themselves into buildings. You can't say that they're buildings to begin with.
I can, however, claim that the buildings and the Drones are part of one race: the Zerg.
Yeah, and sorry for drifting off topic but there's not exactly a lot more to be discussed.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2008 04:41 PM |
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They are from Ashan. Demons aren't.
So? The rules of classification aren't magically suspended just because they're from a different world.
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Different subspecies, sure, but not totally separate races.
I would say that they're the same class (Demons), but not the same race. They're far too different to be the same race.
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I can, however, claim that the buildings and the Drones are part of one race: the Zerg.
You can claim that, but you'd be wrong.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted July 15, 2008 04:44 PM |
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I can, however, claim that the buildings and the Drones are part of one race: the Zerg.
You can claim that, but you'd be wrong.
Actually, you are already wrong -- Zerg was made up by Blizzard, they named it a "race", you can't question the 'inventor' of an invention's classification.
You have a problem with the fact that you think races are only happening similar to humans (humanoids). If creatures can morph, then they are the same race -- just because we humans lack that "mechanism" doesn't mean it isn't.
As for Cerberus and Nightmare, no obviously not, they are "beasts" not the same 'race'.
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Cepheus
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posted July 15, 2008 04:52 PM |
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So? The rules of classification aren't magically suspended just because they're from a different world.
How many different planes of existence have you visited...?
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I would say that they're the same class (Demons), but not the same race. They're far too different to be the same race.
I still say otherwise, unless Nival actually says that they are not the same race. They are not far too different. There are more similarities between Imps and Horned Demons than between Gremlins and Goblins or Fire Dragons and Emerald Dragons.
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You can claim that, but you'd be wrong.
Subjective. Since when did metamorphosis dictate that you transform from one race into another? This is like saying a caterpillar isn't part of the same "race" as a butterfly - insect 
I think the problem here is that we define a "race" differently.
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mvassilev
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posted July 15, 2008 04:55 PM |
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Zerg was made up by Blizzard, they named it a "race", you can't question the 'inventor' of an invention's classification.
Well, that depends on the meaning of "race". I suppose that one could use the word "race" to refer to a class, as Blizzard does in the case of the Zerg. But the Zerg aren't a race in the sense that the Terrans and the Protoss are races.
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How many different planes of existence have you visited...?
OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND!!!! 
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There are more similarities between Imps and Horned Demons than between Gremlins and Goblins or Fire Dragons and Emerald Dragons.
I'd say that there are a lot of similarities between Gremlins and Goblins; certainly more than there are similarities between Imps and Horned Demons. I mean, Gremlins basically look like fat Goblins, only their ears are wider and not quite so long. As for Fire Dragons and Emerald Dragons, that's because they're dragons that serve different Elemental Dragons. It makes sense for a Fire Dragon to not fly, since it's the servant of a Fire Dragon whose worshippers live underground.
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Since when did metamorphosis dictate that you transform from one race into another? This is like saying a caterpillar isn't part of the same "race" as a butterfly - insect
I suppose so, but there's no evidence to show that the Demons are anything like that.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Cepheus
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posted July 15, 2008 06:50 PM |
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Anyway... let's cut out the metamorphosis nonsense and summarise.
I say Inferno is a race-based town, because Demons are a race. Imps and Devils and all the rest are apparently subspecies as part of one larger species. Someone says no, Demons are too different to be a normal species / race. "How so?" I ask. Someone replies "just look at them, their in-game graphics are so different." They do look fairly different, but that's not good enough. I ask for story-based proof concerning this assertion that they can't be considered a single race. I receive none, but I'm told that they're so different from the other races that there's no doubt. I reply that they're from a separate plane of existence so of course they'll be different. The answer relies on the following basis: "but Ashan is so like our world! Because, you know, we don't have magic and elves and pixies and infernal planes, but still! The laws are the same!" I raise an eyebrow.
Conclusion: Nival are too vague for their own good. 
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Asheera
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posted July 15, 2008 07:01 PM |
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but Ashan is so like our world!
That's the main problem I see here: some users think from our world's perspective. That's not right, you have to think "inside Ashan" and understand how it works there.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2008 07:53 PM |
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They do look fairly different, but that's not good enough
Why's that?
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I reply that they're from a separate plane of existence so of course they'll be different.
But from our point of view, Demons are different species. If they have a classification system in the Infernal plane, maybe they consider themselves to be one species, and humans different ones, but from out perspective, they're different species. Don't just look at humans. Look at elves and dwarves too. They're the same species/race. Demons clearly aren't.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted July 15, 2008 08:05 PM |
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Why's that?
See the butterfly example above Cepheus used. It is very similar to how "Zerg" morphs
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
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posted July 15, 2008 08:05 PM |
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Conclusion: Nival are too vague for their own good.
This deserves a QP for a exelent conclusion
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Cepheus
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posted July 15, 2008 08:06 PM |
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Why's that?
No story evidence.
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But from our point of view, Demons are different species. If they have a classification system in the Infernal plane, maybe they consider themselves to be one species, and humans different ones, but from out perspective, they're different species. Don't just look at humans. Look at elves and dwarves too. They're the same species/race. Demons clearly aren't.
I've sort of lost you here since I can't tell which "species" are plurals or not... but in any case we don't know enough to debate much further. You say Demons aren't the same species/race just because they don't look the same (Horned Demons and Succubi look quite similar IMO in any case, but meh). I don't consider that an argument that stands on its own, it has to be backed up by lore
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alcibiades
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of Gold Dragons
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posted July 15, 2008 08:33 PM |
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Guys, don't forget that this is all theory crafting! There is no truth as Nival has simply not provided us sufficient information to discard one of these theories - in fact, I doubt they even went into this much details with the subject themselves! Of course we can discuss it, but please don't bash each other for disagreeing when all we do is put one oppinion against the other.
And anyway, in the end, it's kind of irrelevant if the Demons are one race or not, because even if they are, the theme-lovers don't complain about the faction, and if they aren't, the race-lovers don't seem to complain about it either.
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What will happen now?
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Cepheus
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posted July 15, 2008 08:35 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 20:38, 15 Jul 2008.
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There is no truth as Nival has simply not provided us sufficient information to discard one of these theories - in fact, I doubt they even went into this much details with the subject themselves
Yep, that was my conclusion.
But anyway, "let's err on the side of caution" unless the big guys give the final word 
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Moonlith
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posted July 15, 2008 10:43 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 22:48, 15 Jul 2008.
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As for Cerberus and Nightmare, no obviously not, they are "beasts" not the same 'race'.
I would say Cerberi and Nightmares are the same "species" like lizards and snakes are the same species (reptiles), and how Lions and Wolves are the same species (mammals).
Maybe not race, but I would reckon demonics are a special kind of species at the very least, with demons and devils being the sentient sorts that evolved from the demonic species like how humans evolved from mammals.
At least, that's the theory I personally like to use for demons
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Daystar
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posted July 15, 2008 10:59 PM |
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I like that concept. Perhaps they are Oxygen based as opposed to Carbon based, hence the burning? (Does that make any sense?)
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DagothGares
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posted July 15, 2008 11:01 PM |
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It would explain why they can't last long in the plain of Ashan.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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alcibiades
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posted July 15, 2008 11:18 PM |
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Quote:
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As for Cerberus and Nightmare, no obviously not, they are "beasts" not the same 'race'.
I would say Cerberi and Nightmares are the same "species" like lizards and snakes are the same species (reptiles), and how Lions and Wolves are the same species (mammals).
Maybe not race, but I would reckon demonics are a special kind of species at the very least, with demons and devils being the sentient sorts that evolved from the demonic species like how humans evolved from mammals.
At least, that's the theory I personally like to use for demons
Except you seem to mix up the meaning of "Species" and "Race". At least I think in most situations, one would say that Species is a lower level than Race, i.e. more specific, not more general.
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What will happen now?
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mvassilev
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posted July 15, 2008 11:53 PM |
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But anyway, "let's err on the side of caution" unless the big guys give the final word
Why not err on the side that makes sense based on what we know?
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Eccentric Opinion
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 15, 2008 11:56 PM |
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But anyway, "let's err on the side of caution" unless the big guys give the final word
Why not err on the side that makes sense based on what we know?
And that my friend, is the problem. We NEVER got any lore to decide anything. So we are stumbeling in the darkness of Niveal
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This thread is pages long: 
