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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 14, 2009 08:36 AM |
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Yet another marvelous thread that somehow I missed entirely. I am partial to themes over races. I think to many of a similar kind is kind of dull. Even Haven. Fortress just took it to an extream. There are tons of things to use in any type of theme, and while the dominate race should/can have more representitives in the town..a whole town full of the same creature with different names just seems lazy.
The lists of fantasy creatures is near endless, and they really havn't gotten past the tip of the iceberg. Yes 5 is my favorite of the games so far, but I would like to see more. Like Dragons, there are some extreamly powerful creatures out there other then dragons. A little creativity would be nice ... 
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Message received.
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Trashid
Famous Hero
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posted October 14, 2009 07:25 PM |
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Heres my story about Homm series:
Heroes I/II:
At the beginning, there were 5 Mages in the world. Each one with great power, giving them posibility to change everything they wanted. They lived in a shadow, studying magic. But their human nature couldnt just stay hidden. Greed made them fight with each other for every tiny part of land. The Knight Mage thought, that human is the power. His magic helped him rise big army, giving quick experience to whoever he wanted. The Wizard opened a book. He found many interesting creatures there and formed them from pure magic. Warlock was interested in arcane magic. He transformed his minions to terrific monsters, although that cost him more money than the other ones. The Power Mage was helping many people, healing their wounds. Then barbarians attacked the vilage, killing everybody there. Their chieftain accidently absorbed the magic, and transformed all of his barbarians to strong monsters. Sorceress lived in a forest. She created friends for her. Necroman was fascinated in death. He tried to bring the dead back to life. He tried to move the corpses, but he was to weak. He created an aura of life and killed himself. That worked, and he was first undead ever created. The summoned creatures were afraid to be dispelled, so they were doing everything they master wanted.
Heroes III:
The mages died and chaos came. Every monster was free now. To keep creatures in control, several human mages were casting spells and trying to cage them. But that didnt happen. Other ones were trying to make new monsters, but they died from hands of their creation. The only thing, that was keeping world from total chaos was the level 7 creatures. Everyone was afraid. That made creatures to keep at their side. But that wasnt enough. Human race was no longer controlling this game.
Heroes IV:
The creatures started to dislike other ones from same faction. They started fighting with same level monsters, which one is best. Heroes couldnt have two of them in same army. That made them weaker. The humanoid races had time to build their cultures.
Heroes V:
Those races used the overall confusion and started to gain control over the confused creatures. Their cultures made them more specialized, being able to choose their path of upgrade. Some of the cultures didnt survive, some of them had their rebirth later. Mages from all races started to gain power. The human magic wasnt best any longer. The whole human race regreets the day, when mages was born...
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 16, 2009 09:32 AM |
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What a debate. Could anyone make a HoMM map out of this?
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LordGodric
Known Hero
The Griffin Rider
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posted October 18, 2009 08:35 PM |
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the both conceps when well balanced is the best way.
each faction have to have a theme like the 'forest faction' the theme is fortest, and all of the creatures must fit in the theme!... so you'll not put a naga or a dwarf here, will you?
but inside the theme there should be a 'ruling race' like th elves in the fortes theme. ok there is the another very iconic race in this theme, the centaurs, but lets make the most iconic rule (im talkin bout have more units, background politic is another thing)
so the forest line up could be:
the elves, the centaurs, and some creatures that fit in the theme...
i fhink that the 'race' should have 2-3 creatures (no more 6 dwarves in the same faction!)... heaven/castle is exception, cause they must have 5 humans + griffin + angel! this should change never!
so...
1- pixie: fit in theme and race, is elven cousin!
2- fasr melle centaur: secondary race melle for tactical reasons
3- ranged elf with a bow: the most iconic creature ofthe faction!
4- caster/ranged elf: the druid!
5- unichorn: fit in theme and was already with elves in others Homm
6- slow-walking-tank-tree: name it as you want! but put them in!
7- green/golden/fairy/silver/white/rainbow dragon
3/7race + 800kg theme + goodideias = the perfect HoMM6
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thre are dozens and dozens of mithological creatures... come on, we realy needed to have the h5 all-dwarven-kind faction?
and there are dozens and dozens of themes, mix then and uowa! you got it!
1medieval+humans: heaven
2forest+elves: 'forest'
3dwarves+montains outdoor and indoor: ?
4arcane magic+human wizards: tower/academy
5swamp+lizardman: ?
6rocky desolated hills+barbarian orc/goblins: ?
7chaos,destruction and fire+minotaurs: some thing more like h2 warlock
8death+undead: necropolis
9green hill, savage animals+centaurs (humans have 2 faction centaru have 2 too!)
10inferno, corruption, evil+demons: inferno
11snow+vori(homm snow elves!: ?
12cave+minotaurs˛: dungeon (more like h3)
13desert+naga (? snakes, cold blood? makes some sense at all?)
14conlfux?
15sea faction
16skyes faction
17shadows factio
18...
see? isnt dificult get lots of ideias, put only 9-12 factions and there is!
there are lots fo creatures!
put wolfs, bears, boars, tigers (narnia!), giant dragonflyes, trolls, ogres, dryads, nayads, fauns, sphinx, manticores, medusas, walking mushroons (come on all good game have them!), slimes (any game have them!) - ok just kidding..- pegasus, valkiries, giants, phoenixes, coaltls, halfings, leprechauns, djinns, efreets, djans, sacis, curupiras (from blrazilian mithology, will be realy intrersting a flame haired hunter-hunterer guy), boitatas (from brazilian too), wisps, animated armors, ghosts, giant scorpions, marmeids, sand giant wyrm, sea giant sankes, sand storms spirts, chupa cabras... hum, no that no... griffins, algenl, demons, unichorns, treants, pixies, dragons, animated stone monsters (dwarven creature of couse, how about a stone giant with a crystal made spear?), gargoleys, gremlins, golens, basilisks, gorgons, kobolds, gnolls, goblins, cyclops, hydras, beholders, bandits, harpies, elemntals...
so thets a lot of creatures that could be used!
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 18, 2009 11:49 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 23:55, 18 Oct 2009.
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Quote:
i fhink that the 'race' should have 2-3 creatures (no more 6 dwarves in the same faction!)... heaven/castle is exception, cause they must have 5 humans + griffin + angel! this should change never
Well that's a hypocritical way of looking at it, allowing one faction because it's been in already, but not allowing anything similar because there's been 'one' stuff-up.
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put wolfs, bears, boars, tigers (narnia!), giant dragonflyes, trolls, ogres, dryads, nayads, fauns, sphinx, manticores, medusas, walking mushroons (come on all good game have them!), slimes (any game have them!) - ok just kidding..- pegasus, valkiries, giants, phoenixes, coaltls, halfings, leprechauns, djinns, efreets, djans, sacis, curupiras (from blrazilian mithology, will be realy intrersting a flame haired hunter-hunterer guy), boitatas (from brazilian too), wisps, animated armors, ghosts, giant scorpions, marmeids, sand giant wyrm, sea giant sankes, sand storms spirts, chupa cabras... hum, no that no... griffins, algenl, demons, unichorns, treants, pixies, dragons, animated stone monsters (dwarven creature of couse, how about a stone giant with a crystal made spear?), gargoleys, gremlins, golens, basilisks, gorgons, kobolds, gnolls, goblins, cyclops, hydras, beholders, bandits, harpies, elemntals...
Creatures aren't the be-all and end-all, you also have to think about culture, are they tribal or united, democratic or despotic, do they have specific gender-based roles, how do they feel about magic, if they like magic how do they 'use' it, etc. You'll also have to come up with an architectural style for them, be it Greek, Medieval, Chinese or Aztec, etc.
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Eden
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 02, 2009 06:20 PM |
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Dido to Mytical; I like theme better then race. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a faction to have many of the same races, but I find things like fortress overkill, though believeable overkill. Dungeon I feel is a good example, in that it is a 'Dark Elf' faction, but you have hydra and Minotaur slaves, with Dragons ruling the roost along side the dark elf race theme.
anyway... nough said.
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If I must die, I will encounter darkness as a bride, And hug it in mine arms." —William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure
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dkolb
Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
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posted November 09, 2009 09:01 AM |
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Quote:
Well that's a hypocritical way of looking at it, allowing one faction because it's been in already, but not allowing anything similar because there's been 'one' stuff-up.
I disagree. The race in question is humanity and there is more variation in humanity than in any of these made up races.
And precedent is important if a game as good as HOMM3 is to be made again.
I think part of how the town is arranged/its culture is formed by who leads it:
In HOMM and HOMM2 the heroes were almost all human. (Some skeletons/Genies)
In 3 some of the Sentient creatures from the town were also heroes.
In 4 many creatures were allowed to be heroes.
In 5 the different dominant "races" mainly took over.
So if I had to choose between race based or theme based I'd choose theme. For all it's failings Heroes 4 really made "theme" something that was very important. The towns stood for concepts(like Life, Death, Nature, Chaos) and the creatures affiliated with those concepts. There was variety of creatures in just about every town.
Now in Heroes 5 they took the race approach with these races worshipping a different dragon of Ashan. Most of the creatures who weren't sentient were subjugated by these races. Dark Elves were introduced and almost were like a cult. Minotaurs became like BDSM slaves. Me personally, I hated it. The dark elves didn't add anything to the game for me. The Fortress in Homm3 was one of the most unique towns and was one of the most boring towns in Homm5 that didn't develop passed the Mountain Clan/Dwarf Stereotype.
Essentially the conflicts in HOMM5 shifted from:
Nature vs. Chaos.
to:
Elves who live in a tree vs. Dark Elves who live in a cave *yawn*
I think variety is what I enjoy about the game, I like the dichotomy between all of the towns. The different colors and landscapes. The symbolism and the idea of simply commanding your favorite mythological creature into battle. That's HOMM to me.
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"...once you bought your first green dragon, there was already a necromancer with six or seven boners out and about-Lord_Wook"
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 09, 2009 11:21 AM |
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Edited by Geny at 18:53, 09 Nov 2009.
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While I can understand most of your post, this: "The race in question is humanity and there is more variation in humanity than in any of these made up races." is just nonsense.
Why are humans more varied than, say, dwarfs? The only real difference is that humans are taller, so why are they more varied? (I'm not talking about HoMM 5, I'm talking about general concepts).
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted November 09, 2009 04:51 PM |
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It's not nonsense. The Castle/Haven IS an exception to any theme/race rule. They've been the "protagonist" or "beginner" faction in every game aside from H4 and meddling with their lineup or play style in any significant way isn't necessary... there's a reason they've remained functionally unchanged since H1.
And indeed the humans are more varied, at least judging from all five installments so far in which they've featured as heroes in at least two towns each (and all nine in H3).
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 09, 2009 06:54 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 19:07, 09 Nov 2009.
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And you don't find it at all hypocritical that 5 human creatures is ok, while 5 creatures of any other race are considered an overkill?
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted November 09, 2009 07:30 PM |
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I don't consider it okay, I just wouldn't condemn it outright since, if you look back, it is actually the only remaining faction with a common race throughout all five games and there's certainly a reason for it. It isn't like the other towns nor intended to be - it's a common faction which bridges all five installments and to play around with it would be kicking taboo in the face.
H1 -> H2 -> H3 -> H4 -> H5
Haven evolution
Humans -> Same -> Same -> Same -> Same
Preserve evolution
Elves/Dwarves/Sprites -> Same -> Elves/Dwarves -> Elves -> Elves
Stronghold evolution
Conanesque mashup -> Same -> Greenskin mashup -> Rugged creatures -> Orcs
Dungeon evolution
Gothic/classical mashup -> Same -> Beastmen -> Pirates/bandits/scum -> Dark Elves
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 09, 2009 07:38 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 04:04, 10 Nov 2009.
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Quote:
I disagree. The race in question is humanity and there is more variation in humanity than in any of these made up races.
Only because you're working from across a whole world, and 5,000 years of history. I'm sure if elves or orcs had that kind of backing they'd seem pretty diverse as well.
Quote:
And precedent is important if a game as good as HOMM3 is to be made again.
Well since the universe is different now, we've lost a lot of precedent already.
Quote:
So if I had to choose between race based or theme based I'd choose theme. For all it's failings Heroes 4 really made "theme" something that was very important. The towns stood for concepts(like Life, Death, Nature, Chaos) and the creatures affiliated with those concepts. There was variety of creatures in just about every town.
Interesting point, since they contradicted those positions as often as they fell in with them (for nature you get Phoenix, Fairie Dragon and Unicorn, for life you get a ballista, and the lineup for 'order' seems to nearly as chaotic as for chaos, oh, and death is a mix of Necropolis and Inferno, which means it's only sticking to theme about half the time anyway).
Quote:
The Fortress in Homm3 was one of the most unique towns and was one of the most boring towns in Homm5 that didn't develop passed the Mountain Clan/Dwarf Stereotype.
I'd agree here, but also disagree. Agree in the fact that Fortress was a pretty bad lineup, but disagree with the fact that they were coherent enough to even 'reach' a single stereotype
Quote:
Essentially the conflicts in HOMM5 shifted from:
Nature vs. Chaos.
to:
Elves who live in a tree vs. Dark Elves who live in a cave *yawn*
Actually they've shifted from the complex and interesting politics of H3 to good vs. evil
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It's not nonsense. The Castle/Haven IS an exception to any theme/race rule.
They're an exception to the 'theme' rule, not to the 'race' rule.
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there's a reason they've remained functionally unchanged since H1.
Well Sylvan and stronghold haven't changed 'that' much either.
Quote:
And indeed the humans are more varied, at least judging from all five installments so far in which they've featured as heroes in at least two towns each (and all nine in H3).
Yeah, well I'm sure if elves or dwarves ever made a game they'd give 'their' races a bit of a boost as well.
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dkolb
Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
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posted November 09, 2009 10:04 PM |
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Edited by dkolb at 22:05, 09 Nov 2009.
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Quote:
Only because you're working from across a whole world, and 5,000 years of history. I'm sure if elves or orcs had that kind of backing they'd seem pretty diverse as well.
Yes. Your 100% right, but they don't. Humans also have the extreme advantage of being real and thus in some ways relate more to the gamer I think. Another way humans are in the game is with the undead. Pretty much they are all humans or spirits of humans.
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Well since the universe is different now, we've lost a lot of precedent already.
Yes and that is a problem in my mind. I blame HOMM4 for the new world, that may have gave Ubisoft the "inspiration" to create their own world.
Quote:
Interesting point, since they contradicted those positions as often as they fell in with them (for nature you get Phoenix, Fairie Dragon and Unicorn, for life you get a ballista, and the lineup for 'order' seems to nearly as chaotic as for chaos, oh, and death is a mix of Necropolis and Inferno, which means it's only sticking to theme about half the time anyway).
I think they wanted variety to make up for the lack of creatures they had. Heroes 4 was a disaster but you couldn't really call it race based.
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"...once you bought your first green dragon, there was already a necromancer with six or seven boners out and about-Lord_Wook"
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted November 09, 2009 10:43 PM |
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Quote:
Yes and that is a problem in my mind. I blame HOMM4 for the new world, that may have gave Ubisoft the "inspiration" to create their own world.
Why's that; the series had shifted and alternated worlds at least five times before that point. New universe is different indeed.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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dkolb
Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
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posted November 10, 2009 04:38 AM |
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yes, but Heroes 4 was radically different from Homm1,2,3 and 5 is radically different from any of them.
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"...once you bought your first green dragon, there was already a necromancer with six or seven boners out and about-Lord_Wook"
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 10, 2009 05:38 AM |
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Quote:
Yes. Your 100% right, but they don't. Humans also have the extreme advantage of being real and thus in some ways relate more to the gamer I think.
Unfortunately true, pretty much all the campaigns except those in H4 are focussed around the Castle/Haven faction, Which is a pity, because the other factions could probably provide as great a plot if the designers were prepared to spend the time on them.
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Another way humans are in the game is with the undead. Pretty much they are all humans or spirits of humans.
That's true, unfortunately, but that's a degradation, it's like saying that only humans fall prey to the wiles of undeath
Quote:
Why's that; the series had shifted and alternated worlds at least five times before that point. New universe is different indeed.
Nope, 1, 2 and 3 were on the same world (Enroth, Enroth, Erathia).
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted November 10, 2009 05:40 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 17:41, 10 Nov 2009.
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Quote:
Nope, 1, 2 and 3 were on the same world (Enroth, Enroth, Erathia).
I know that well; you're only referring to the HoMM games, I said the series. That's what Ubi were (apparently) looking at when making their universe/world decisions, not just Heroes IV.
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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rottenvenetic
Known Hero
Derusticated
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posted November 15, 2009 08:54 PM |
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Why not mix it up anyway? By including races and themes too one could create a lot of replay value and push the faction number into the mid tens without that much effort, of course only a few being very significant in the storyline.
In such a situation, certain creatures like maybe hydras or griffins could appear in more than one faction, giving us the chance to see the same unit fulfill slightly different roles as it is used within the unique fighting styles of 2+ different factions. Add to that, conquering rival cities which share creatures with you would provide you with a new advantage 
Take elves now; they are in fact the only proper situation of a race with two themes in Heroes 5. It doesn't say anywhere that sylvans and darkies can't interbreed, and while the latter are understandably pale their looks aren't dissimilar.
One might argue that the elves vs dark elves thing has been done to death and there's some truth to that, but as 2 possibilities among many they can still take up their places with pride if done well, and enrich the gaming experience with familiar but still attractive options.
Orcs in H5 are even more interesting IMO. Rebellious factions that try to re-invent the demon-human hybrids into new ways of life (such as delving in magic and making peace with the wizards, for example) could be very interesting.
Undead? Goes without saying. Maybe there are good Undead that are thankful for the lives they had and want to protect life using the advantages that their unfeeling nature gives them?
And there is also the converse possibility of different races in the same theme. These would often be either traditional allies or consider each other heretics and thus traditional enemies - like maybe the humans' feudal Haven and another faction that has access to angels and worships Elrath - be it dwarves, naga, humans again or whatever. But while the Haven is a might faction these guys would be more magic oriented.
Or the nomadic raiding savages' theme. There is the Stronghold of Heroes V and there is the Stronghold of heroes III. If the latter could be revived as a green-skinned goblin-type creatures' civilization with their Orc unit being called something else, or better yet changed to Gnolls, they could certainly both be together in the same game. Maybe this Gnoll or Goblin faction would be less numerous and posess limited magic alongside or together with warcries. Maybe both Gnolls and Goblins could get a savage faction, and maybe they could get more civilized ones as well if that's not too much for the mind to enjoy
I would really like being hit with such a big wall of options every time I begin a skirmish, since the current system with a few highly distinct factions leaves so much blank space in between. In reality, while people certainly bunch together in taking sides, there are as many life doctrines as there are people, no two are really the same. Certainly having some 50 factions, with some creatures potentially appearing in as many as 3 or 4, would not be something I'd term useless filler content.
____________
In the darkness, a blind man is the best guide; in an age of madness, look to the madman to lead the way.
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dkolb
Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
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posted November 18, 2009 05:50 AM |
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Quote:
I would really like being hit with such a big wall of options every time I begin a skirmish, since the current system with a few highly distinct factions leaves so much blank space in between. In reality, while people certainly bunch together in taking sides, there are as many life doctrines as there are people, no two are really the same. Certainly having some 50 factions, with some creatures potentially appearing in as many as 3 or 4, would not be something I'd term useless filler content.
I'd love 50 factions too, it just is impossible to do. The developer would have to animate all of the creatures/heroes/ and biggest off all the towns themselves. Also from a gameplay perspective, it would be extremely difficult to keep the game balanced with all of the different creature combinations.
____________
"...once you bought your first green dragon, there was already a necromancer with six or seven boners out and about-Lord_Wook"
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 18, 2009 08:06 AM |
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Yeah, 50 is over the top, and even 15 is a bit much, but I can see the game working with 12-13 factions, provided the racial skills are well thought through (if racial skills are included).
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This thread is pages long: 
