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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 06, 2008 07:10 PM |
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That being said, we can still discuss how we reach the best compromise. 
Well here is my compromise. The entire castle doesn't have to be the same creature in order to have a good story. Like I said before, I like having humanoids in castles, to show a bit of structure. For instance, I like just having Druids and Hunters in Sylvan. The defenders (but called dwarves) and rune priests in H5's fortress, the shadow witch in dungeon, the lizardmen and Gnoll's in H3's fortress and so on. There is no need to have more of the same creature.
Picture these creatures as the "culture" in the town. They are the ones that keep order. The other creatures may be slaves, allies, or just want to protect their land. Or what ever you can think of. Happy?
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 06, 2008 07:12 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 19:16, 06 Jul 2008.
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No, because "slaves" and "allies" should be the minority, not vice-versa
That means that the Sylvan town is pretty good right now with Blade Dancers (although more Elves would be nice to have)
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 06, 2008 07:20 PM |
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Quote:
Like I said before, I like having humanoids in castles, to show a bit of structure. For instance, I like just having Druids and Hunters in Sylvan.
They don't necessarily have to be humanoids.
Not only humanoids can keep a culture, as long as they are not 'beasts' 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 06, 2008 07:35 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
That being said, we can still discuss how we reach the best compromise.
Well here is my compromise. The entire castle doesn't have to be the same creature in order to have a good story. Like I said before, I like having humanoids in castles, to show a bit of structure. For instance, I like just having Druids and Hunters in Sylvan. The defenders (but called dwarves) and rune priests in H5's fortress, the shadow witch in dungeon, the lizardmen and Gnoll's in H3's fortress and so on. There is no need to have more of the same creature.
Picture these creatures as the "culture" in the town. They are the ones that keep order. The other creatures may be slaves, allies, or just want to protect their land. Or what ever you can think of. Happy?
I think we're moving in the right direction now, at least.
On point I'd like to address is the great focus we see on the Fortress. Like you said, when HoF came out, there was an uproad because of the Dwarven line-up, people were furious about this tendency to have "only one type of creatures in each castle". Even more humerous were the speculations that soon arose over the supposed Naga faction in the second expansion, which people almost catastrophically speculated to concist of 7 Naga units.
Now, what I think we should look at is the actual number of racial units in each town:
Fortress: 6 (1 mounted)
Haven: 5 (1 mounted)
Dungeon: 4 (1 mounted)
Sylvan: 3 (+½ in Sprite)
Stronghold: 3 (+ 3 associated)
Academy: 1?
Necropolis: ~ 7, but nobody seem to complain here.
Inferno: ~ 7, but again, nobody complain here.
Thus, I think actually Nival has distributed Sun and Wind equal, as the saying goes. Fortress, Haven, Dungeon and Sylvan towns obviously satisfy the "racial" group. On the other hand, Stronghold, Academy, Necropolis and Inferno sit much more in the other camp, favoring more of a thematic line-up.
Nival even said themselves, when they published the Dwarven line-up, that they wanted the Dwarven faction to be unique in the sense that it had almost only Dwarven units. Isn't that actually something we should credit them for? - that instead of making 8 factions following strictly some rule (e.g. always 5 racial units, or whatever), they addapted the line-ups to the nature of the faction and the history they made for the faction.
From general lore and mythology (which the theme people seem to put a lot of emphasis on, I could add! ), Dwarves are not typically fond of associating with other races, and Nival incorporated this fact by making the faction with little outside input. True, I could myself have gone without the Bear Rider (@ Asheera: Simply because I think it looks utterly stupid!!) and the Thane (because this looks like an attempt to break the natural flow of things to fit the decided strategy - i.e. we want a giant unit, but don't want foreign input, so we make a giant dwarf - wtf!?), but those things aside, I respect Nival for trying to make each faction unique in this sense.
And isn't that what we're all asking for?
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What will happen now?
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 06, 2008 07:38 PM |
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Since this argument is NEVER going to end, lets just send in a very large suggestion to Ubisoft with the following:
*Massive race based suggestion
*Massive theme based suggestions
In H3 mainly Castle and Necropolis was major race based.
Then we got the partlyal ones called "Inferno", "Conflux" and "Stronghold".
The theme based ones is Tower, Rampart, Stronghold, Fortress.
In H5 the theme based ones is "Academy", wait?! only 1?!
Partial ones are "Dungeon", "Sylvan", "Inferno", "Stronghold".
Race based ones are "Fortress", Haven", "Necropolis".
So H3 had 9 factions after 2 expansion.
So H5 had 8 factions after 2 expansions.
However H3 had 8 races without expansions, and H5 had 6 without expansions.
H5 was alot later, so along with better grapic it should also have alot more factions. What is the difference in games bethween the generations is that Generation 2 should have improved gameplay in comparision to G1.
This happend from H1 --> H2.
But why do i still enjoy Heroes 3 soo much when Heroes 5 is out with the "1337" grapics? Simply because i find the design in H3 to be better.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 06, 2008 08:09 PM |
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@zazu
Like alc said, now we're getting somewhere. The only thing is - you think that 1-2 race creatures is enough, I think that 3-4 would be better, especially in self-centered races like humans and dwarves. And of course, as alc said, there are different castles in HoMM right now, enough to satisfy everyone.
P.S. Using Fortress as your only argument (not saying you did) is pointless because even most of the pro-racers () agree that this town is a bit of an overkill (by a unit or two).
@del_diablo
I disagree. 15 factions is not neccessarily an improvement. It's probably even a drawback, because there's no way in hell you could make 15 truly different, unique and original factions, not in one installment (or two or three) anyway.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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A5ado
Tavern Dweller
Master of Logic
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posted July 06, 2008 08:13 PM |
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I agree that this discussion is finally going in the right direction. One point I want to make is that necropolis is NOT race based, but one of the best examples of a theme based castle (same exact thing goes for inferno). And TheDeath, I'm glad you backed up some of your arguments with your veiwpoints. Thats all I meant, not to just say "I agree" or "you're wrong". You made some good points but I think we can identify the dividing factor here: I don't play HOMM for the story, the lore, the history, the culture, and the long long lines of ridiculous story descripiton. I don't care about immersing myself in the wonderfully fantastic new world of Heroes of Might and Magic. I play it becuase of the very fun gameplay, the fact that you can play with friends for hours, the interesting creatures and upgrades and line ups, and have I mentioned gameplay? Its fine if you want to read a book, but by making the book more 'realistic', in my opinion (which I never said it wasn't) that makes the game less interesting (which some people argue has to or does not have to do with gameplay). Nonetheless, I feel the game suffers and my reason for this argument is that I would like others to at least see my side of it.
On your whole argument that race based town are LESS confusing: You seem to not have grasped what I meant by confusing. I didn't mean it was consfusing as to what castle they were from, I meant what level obviously. I realize that If you saw an elf you would know that it was from the elf castle, but it wouldn't be clear (especially to noobs) what level that creature is.
Also, the whole point of theme based is that you can recognize which castle they are from easily. Swamp creatures can be identified as from the swampy castle; demon-like evil creatures are form inferno; skeltons, ghosts, wraiths, undead creatures are from undead castle; woodland green forest creatures are from the forest castle; maybe the egyptian mythology people are from the egyptian castle; etc. etc.
Just a note about the 'not listening' thing. I wrote how a complicated game is more fun, especially heroes since its pretty complicated and lots of fun. But you seemed to have thought that I said complicated games are not fun. I said specifically that a more complicated game is more fun, until it gets overly involved and cumbersome. And you seem to agree with me on that point (If not to the same degree) so why were you trying to argue it??
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 06, 2008 08:18 PM |
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I don't care about immersing myself in the wonderfully fantastic new world of Heroes of Might and Magic. I play it becuase of the very fun gameplay, the fact that you can play with friends for hours, the interesting creatures and upgrades and line ups, and have I mentioned gameplay?
But that's a part of the game, because it's a fantasy game, where story and background is a part of it. If you don't want story at all, there are several games available, most are arcade, but even e.g Counter-Strike (obviously it's a FPS, but I only mentioned a list with games without a story being a part of it).
Some games, including fantasy ones, are improved by a story.
As for the complicated game part, the problem is where we consider them too complicated. I did not say there should be line drawn somewhere, I said that cumbersome and complicated are two different things. Cumbersome = too much 'manual' tweaking (micro-management). Complicated = rules and strategy (with lots of choices).
Race based towns definitely are not more confusing than theme-based ones in any way, even for 'distingushability' factor.
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A5ado
Tavern Dweller
Master of Logic
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posted July 06, 2008 08:30 PM |
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Quote:
Race based towns definitely are not more confusing than theme-based ones in any way, even for 'distingushability' factor.
Thanks for that fact, did you find that in like an encyclopedia or something?
And as for those other games, thanks but no thanks. HOMM for me is about having fun with friends, not playing it all by myself becuase none of the mean kids at school will talk to me. I mean after all, the game is set up like a board game, but immensly more complex and fun.
I you say that you play the game for the story, then I have to say my opinion differs. I think the game was meant to be multiplayer, and that the campaign is sort of like a side project. Therefore, obviously neither of us can convince eachother that our opinions are correct, since they are just that, subjective opinions. So it is my opinion that you are welcome to play HOMM, but please do not try to change it since it would change for the worse. If you want more story, there are plenty of other games out there that are ACTUALLY MEANT to have an in depth story.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 06, 2008 08:34 PM |
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Thanks for that fact, did you find that in like an encyclopedia or something?
Did you find your statement about confusion in an encyclopedia or something?
You said it's confusing, your opinion. Are you not allowing myself to express my opinion? 
Quote:
I you say that you play the game for the story, then I have to say my opinion differs. I think the game was meant to be multiplayer, and that the campaign is sort of like a side project.
I don't play the campaign for the record. I meant the 'story' of the factions themselves. I don't play for the story, but you have to understand that story is a vital part of it. We need both 'fun' and story in a fantasy game. I don't mean that we should only play for the story, but it is a part of it. They complement each other. I'm not saying 100% story, or 100% non-story. I'm talking about a 50% of each, that adds to the feeling of a fantasy game
Quote:
So it is my opinion that you are welcome to play HOMM, but please do not try to change it since it would change for the worse. If you want more story, there are plenty of other games out there that are ACTUALLY MEANT to have an in depth story.
It seems H5 changed the direction, 3D0 were pretty childish anyway
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 06, 2008 08:35 PM |
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Edited by Zazu1 at 20:37, 06 Jul 2008.
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Ok, Well, then at least we are going somewhere. I just don't see the point in having 3-4 of the same race in the same castle, when you can only have 1-2. Like it has been said before, the line-up is only the army of the castle. So why can't you except the fact that the rest of the race is part of the "culture". The story can explain that. There is no need in having more in the line-up.
On another point, I completely agree with A5ado about Necropolis and Inferno. I have never seen them as race-based, I guess thats why I have never complained about them. If necropolis were race-based it would be would be 7 levels of vampires or 7 seven levels of zombies. It's an undead theme. Infact I've always liked necropolis for that reason, it's in my opinion the most theme-based castle in Heroes 5, besides maybe Acedemy.
Quote:
But why do i still enjoy Heroes 3 soo much when Heroes 5 is out with the "1337" grapics? Simply because i find the design in H3 to be better.
I agree with this 100%. This is why I started this topic.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 06, 2008 08:42 PM |
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Quote:
On another point, I completely agree with A5ado about Necropolis and Inferno. I have never seen them as race-based,
Well, in most fantasy games (which have races by the way, not themes - in fact, H1, 2 3 and 4 are the only theme-based fantasy games that I know!) there are Undead as a race; I don't think undead are a theme but some sort of race.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 06, 2008 08:46 PM |
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Quote:
I just don't see the point in having 3-4 of the same race in the same castle, when you can only have 1-2.
There's nothing bad in having 1-2 units in certain cases. Academy is a perfect example - it's clear that the mages will not be the majority in the army, they don't need to do it because they can build/summon other creatires who will blindly obey them. On the other hand, do you really expect a physically strong and secluded race like the Dwarves not be the main force of their army? Same goes for the humans - they are skilled and versatile fighters, why would they want to rely on many allies when they can do the job themselves?
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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A5ado
Tavern Dweller
Master of Logic
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posted July 06, 2008 08:47 PM |
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Did you find your statement about confusion in an encyclopedia or something? You said it's confusing, your opinion. Are you not allowing myself to express my opinion?
If you didn't realize, I don't just make statements. I have always either given a statement, then explained my reasons, or specifically pointed out that it is my opinion. You on the other hand just write statements.
Back on topic though: I can not believe you do not play the campaign, how else do you know the story? And also, with theme based castles like necropolis and inferno there can still be a great story. You don't need to have an elaborate war between the elves, the skeletons, the dwarves, and the lizards who each have their own faction all tho themselves (although I suppose you would say that this would make the game better).
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2008 08:48 PM |
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In my opinon you cant count Necropolis, Academy and Inferno to the theme-based.
In Inferno there are demons, they are a race.
In Necropolis there are the Undead, they are like a race.
In Academy they have summoned creatures and magical constructs - it doesnt count because Academy is supposed to be like that.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 06, 2008 08:49 PM |
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Quote:
If you didn't realize, I don't just make statements. I have always either given a statement, then explained my reasons, or specifically pointed out that it is my opinion. You on the other hand just write statements.
You said you are confused because you can't recognize creatures so easily if they are similar. Isn't this an opinion, I mean sure, I never got confused, or am I missing something here?
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A5ado
Tavern Dweller
Master of Logic
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posted July 06, 2008 08:58 PM |
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Quote:
You said you are confused because you can't recognize creatures so easily if they are similar. Isn't this an opinion, I mean sure, I never got confused, or am I missing something here?
Yes, you are missing something. I said I was confused, I specifically pointed out that it was me, not a general feeling. I conveyed that it was my opinion, I did not try to make it sound like its a fact. You on the other hand just said "its not confusing" making it sound like you were stating a fact.
and Xerox, there is BIG BIG problem with what you are saying. I suppose this could be something that needs to be addressed. In the view of the theme based fans, necropolis and inferno are 100% completely and utterly the epitome of good theme based castles. If Necropolis were a race, then there would be 7 tiers of skeleton warriors (a skeleton with an axe, a skeleton on a bear, a skeleton wizard, a giant skeleton, etc.). There a ghosts, wraiths, zombies, vampires etc. so they are NOT race based. Inferno is the same: They are all different species, so they are different races. If there were 7 tiers of imps then it would be race based.
The original poll question maybe should have been worded:
castles comprising of all the same species (such as dwarves) OR
castles with a connecting theme (such as undead or satanic)
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 06, 2008 09:02 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I just don't see the point in having 3-4 of the same race in the same castle, when you can only have 1-2.
There's nothing bad in having 1-2 units in certain cases. Academy is a perfect example - it's clear that the mages will not be the majority in the army, they don't need to do it because they can build/summon other creatires who will blindly obey them. On the other hand, do you really expect a physically strong and secluded race like the Dwarves not be the main force of their army? Same goes for the humans - they are skilled and versatile fighters, why would they want to rely on many allies when they can do the job themselves?
Hmmm, well like I said this is where the story comes in. If you want to have original ideas, like all the race-based people want, then you don't have to stick with the exact history told in the mythologies, maybe their not strong enough so they use the creatures in the mountains or the frozen tundra. I obviously don't care about this, I'm just trying to have a compromise that makes sense for both of us.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 06, 2008 09:03 PM |
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Quote:
If Necropolis were a race, then there would be 7 tiers of skeleton warriors (a skeleton with an axe, a skeleton on a bear, a skeleton wizard, a giant skeleton, etc.).
No, that would be a Skeleton Faction, not an Undead one
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A5ado
Tavern Dweller
Master of Logic
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posted July 06, 2008 09:08 PM |
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Quote:
No, that would be a Skeleton Faction, not an Undead on
You are missing the whole entire essence of this whole thread. Undead is not a species, skeleton is a species (Well you know what I mean).
Dwarf is a species, not a theme
Undead is a theme, not a species.
Asheera, you seem to be a theme based fan but are unclear as to what we actually mean. I hope this clears it up what we mean by theme vs. race based towns.
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This thread is pages long: 
