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| Thread: Is being poor a choice? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 20, 2008 03:26 AM |
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Is being poor a choice?
A woman I know, who is not rich, nor even middle-class, has recently bought a huge big-screen TV. She is unemployed, and receives disability payments from the government. She recently moved out of her apartment and is renting a house. Yet she complains about the high cost of gas and electricity.
A family I know, who are also "working"-class, also have a big-screen TV. They have a variety of game consoles. Yet they don't have a large source of income.
America has a negative savings rate, and people are blaming the banks and the government for it. Since a lot of people are too stupid to invest, that means that the people who are smart enough to invest should be taxed at a higher rate. And the banks should be more tightly regulated to prevent them from giving out bad loans. Yet no one held a gun to people's heads and told them to get a bad mortgage. It's their own fault for taking bad loans, and when their homes are foreclosed, they only have themselves to blame. Don't buy what you can't afford.
So, I must ask you, Other Side. Is being poor a choice? (Note that I am talking about developed countries, not third-world countries, where the situation is obviously different.)
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Eccentric Opinion
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 20, 2008 03:42 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 03:45, 20 Jul 2008.
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My mum has a friend that doesnt want and refuses to work -.-
Dont really know where he lives because I hate him 
(he is completly stupid, retarded and snowed my mum several times lol, thats life in sweden, your parents have sex all the time with diffrent people and when you become 14 year old you begin to do the same lol ).
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Anyway, in my opinion its diffrent for diffrent people.
Some just have a crappy life and cant get money (like those in Africa, but they get 12 children...) and other are just weird and choose to be poor
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Over himself, over his own
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- John Stuart Mill
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Aculias
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Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted July 20, 2008 09:53 AM |
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Sometimes life can be harsh & you are dealt what the cards deal you in life.
Sometimes you work so hard to make it in life just to get kicked down by other people.
Sometimes you rely on others, so you dont have to work so hard.
Sometimes you take the wrong path in life & it rushes you like a bug & you just dont know how to cope.
Sometimes you can not comprehend life just like everyone else can & you just think you dont need certain criteria's. (Did I say it right ?)
Sometimes people just give up when others give up on you.
Sometimes you just dont care anymore.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Galev
Famous Hero
Galiv :D
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posted July 20, 2008 12:46 PM |
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Quote:
It's their own fault for taking bad loans, and when their homes are foreclosed, they only have themselves to blame. Don't buy what you can't afford.
If I offer a child arsenic, wrapped in shiny paper and telling him frequently that this is the best candy on the plane; Who would you blame?
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Is it a choice? Yes and no. Depends on.
However being stupid is an other question. Is that a choice? Well, partly. It highly depends on the (mis)leaders of a society/country. Here in Hungary education was rather good and Hungarians had notable achievements; at least had some brains and common sense. Now we embrace (are forced to do so) a shiny new miraculous education-system. It surely results in a desaster of a bunch of zombieman controlled by not even Britny Lances but " Anettka"s and
"Győzike"s. It is horror. My mother is a teacher and "suck my d***" or "f*** u" [of course in the nicest Hungarian] are just conjunctions for 6-10 year-old "kids". Well, not all of them, but now it is certainly Not a minority of children...
What does this do with poverty? Stupid people are not too smart about loans if they don't even know noumbers.
But I'm too serious, aren't I?
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Incidence? I think it's cummulative!
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 20, 2008 03:59 PM |
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Quote:
America has a negative savings rate, and people are blaming the banks and the government for it. Since a lot of people are too stupid to invest, that means that the people who are smart enough to invest should be taxed at a higher rate.
I disagree completely. It's their fault that they don't invest, they should expect to be poor (or rather, not rich). Why "punish" the "smart" ones?
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So, I must ask you, Other Side. Is being poor a choice?
Sometimes not. Depends if you are born in a very poor family.
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted July 20, 2008 04:21 PM |
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sure it is. My parents' friend could earn like three times what he earns right now, but he doesn't care, more free time to spend on his hobbies/with his family is much more valuable to him than bigger earnings. He is relatively poor right now (old car, small flat etc) but he doesn't care and I agree with him.
I need only a bit of things; luxury seems rather pointless to me. I don't need a car, and I don't want to have one - good bicycle, maybe a motorbike in the future is all that I need. The only expensive thing I want is an own house (I hate flats, maybe because I'm forced to live in those all my life), but it doesn't need to be big;
As for poor people bying luxury stuff: happens all the time. My mate just bought an old ford, and he complains about fuel's prices - too bad his monster uses 15l/100km and he knew it would be like that. He wanted a big car, though. So he must cope with what he chose. 
A more extreme case is a couple that I know: THey are extremely poor, yet they bought a car and they got two kids - too bad none of them is employed. They just take loans. Bigger and bigger 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 20, 2008 04:26 PM |
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Even though I know the phrasing of this thread is probably just unfortunate, I can't help feel that it is a bit offensive. Those who are really poor have not become so by choice, and thinking it is so is disregarding their need.
That being said, obviously some people drive themselves into lesser or larger degree of poverty by acting irresponsible.
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What will happen now?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 20, 2008 04:28 PM |
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As is often in most OSM things, the answer is not "yes" or "no", but "sometimes" 
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 20, 2008 05:50 PM |
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Asheera:
Quote:
I disagree completely. It's their fault that they don't invest, they should expect to be poor (or rather, not rich). Why "punish" the "smart" ones?
I was being sarcastic.
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Depends if you are born in a very poor family.
Yeah, but just because you're poor doesn't mean that you have to impoversh yourself even more. I mean, if you're poor, that's one thing, but don't buy things you can't afford.
Doomforge:
Quote:
My parents' friend could earn like three times what he earns right now, but he doesn't care, more free time to spend on his hobbies/with his family is much more valuable to him than bigger earnings. He is relatively poor right now (old car, small flat etc) but he doesn't care and I agree with him.
People may choose to work less to enjoy other things more. I don't hold it against them, by any means. But please don't buy things that you can't afford.
Alcibiades:
Quote:
Even though I know the phrasing of this thread is probably just unfortunate, I can't help feel that it is a bit offensive. Those who are really poor have not become so by choice, and thinking it is so is disregarding their need.
Well, certainly there are many people who are poor or become poor through no fault of their own. But I'm not talking about being poor per se. I'm talking about how many people's actions aren't helping them become any less poor, and are in fact making things worse. I mean, if you barely make any money, don't buy a big-screen TV. If gas prices are high, don't buy a gas guzzler.
TheDeath:
Quote:
As is often in most OSM things, the answer is not "yes" or "no", but "sometimes"
I'm surprised that you haven't denounced me as a greedy capitalist who hates poor people. Of course it's not always their fault that they become poor. But sometimes it is indeed their fault that they stay that way.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted July 20, 2008 06:10 PM |
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Yeah, but just because you're poor doesn't mean that you have to impoversh yourself even more. I mean, if you're poor, that's one thing, but don't buy things you can't afford.
Easy to say, hard to be fair. What fault do you have compared to someone else that you're poor? Yeah I know the world is not fair, but it's easy to say that when you are not in such a position.
If you are poor because you're stupid, it's ok. If you are poor just because you were born that way or consequences and others' actions made so, then iz not ok. It's one thing where I agree with e.g Robin Hood (don't yell at me k?).
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Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
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posted July 20, 2008 06:50 PM |
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I get the feeling that this thread should be re-named: "Is buying things that you can't afford a choice?"
Of course it is a choice to buy what you can't afford!
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 20, 2008 06:57 PM |
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What fault do you have compared to someone else that you're poor?
Well, there could be numerous things. You could be unskilled, and unable to find a high-paying job. Or there may just not be many job opportunites. Or you may have bad spending/saving habits. In this last case, it is your fault.
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If you are poor just because you were born that way or consequences and others' actions made so, then iz not ok.
Well, actually that depends on what the consequences are. If you are born into a poor family, of course it's not your fault that you're poor. But I wonder what you mean by "ok". Just because you're born doesn't mean that you have the right not to be poor. As for others' actions, if someone stole everything you own, of course that's not OK. But if you aren't getting paid as much as you want, that is probably OK.
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It's one thing where I agree with e.g Robin Hood
I've actually changed my opinion on Robin Hood. I assume you're happy to hear that.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted July 20, 2008 07:39 PM |
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Quote:
Well, actually that depends on what the consequences are. If you are born into a poor family, of course it's not your fault that you're poor. But I wonder what you mean by "ok". Just because you're born doesn't mean that you have the right not to be poor. As for others' actions, if someone stole everything you own, of course that's not OK. But if you aren't getting paid as much as you want, that is probably OK.
By ok I meant "fair". Fair takes all things into account, that is if someone works twice as much he should earn twice as much, and I agree. But if you are unfortunate because of someone else (extreme example: see second man on Earth, can't "claim" the land as the first one ), then that's simply not fair. Just because you are "born" that way 
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 20, 2008 07:55 PM |
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someone works twice as much he should earn twice as much
Assuming, of course, that they work at the same efficiency at the same job. I mean, under no conditions should a janitor working for 2 hours make more money than a doctor working for 1 hour.
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But if you are unfortunate because of someone else (extreme example: see second man on Earth, can't "claim" the land as the first one ), then that's simply not fair.
Well, all people are born with nothing. But it changes, depending on what they're given and what they earn. But while it may be unfair for the second man to not have much opportunity, it would also be unfair to take land away from the first man. A fairer way would be to not let the first man aquire all of the land.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 20, 2008 08:03 PM |
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Assuming, of course, that they work at the same efficiency at the same job. I mean, under no conditions should a janitor working for 2 hours make more money than a doctor working for 1 hour.
Yeah obviously
Problem is: how do you "measure" the difficulty of a job?
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Well, all people are born with nothing. But it changes, depending on what they're given and what they earn. But while it may be unfair for the second man to not have much opportunity, it would also be unfair to take land away from the first man. A fairer way would be to not let the first man aquire all of the land.
Yes that's the word: opportunity. Some people don't have opportunities, so it's not their choice that they're poor, simple as that. Those that have and refuse do have a choice. Again, it is "sometimes".
You are born with nothing, I agree, but what about the opportunities of those around you? What if a kid has wealthy parents? What if he doesn't have to work? Is being rich then, a choice in this situation? Hardly.
Life is unfair. Questions as the title of this thread can't be answered with 1 or 0, depend on the situation.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 20, 2008 08:14 PM |
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Problem is: how do you "measure" the difficulty of a job?
You don't. It's not a question of difficulty but of supply and demand. Jobs that are in higher demand will get paid more, assuming that there aren't as many people to supply them. It's relatively hard to become a doctor, and they're in relatively high demand, so they get paid a lot. The demand for janitors isn't low either, but they're in far greater supply, so they get lower wages.
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Life is unfair. Questions as the title of this thread can't be answered with 1 or 0, depend on the situation.
Yeah, I agree. *shocked expressions all around* But people's stupidity and bad choices often does make their situation worse. And they often wrongly blame people who are smart enough not to make the same mistakes for their troubles.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 20, 2008 08:32 PM |
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But people's stupidity and bad choices often does make their situation worse. And they often wrongly blame people who are smart enough not to make the same mistakes for their troubles.
Well in those situations of course I would blame them and in fact for me is similar to abortion (where you make a mistake and blame the fetus), and you know my opinion about that too well
But I answered the question: Sometimes, because it depends on the situation
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 20, 2008 08:47 PM |
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(where you make a mistake and blame the fetus)
I don't think that anyone blames the fetus. It would be more analogous for accidentally pregnant women to blame women who are not accidentally pregnant for their troubles. This makes no sense, I know, but a lot of poor people use the same kind of "logic" in blaming the rich.
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william
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Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted July 21, 2008 10:04 AM |
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If you are born into a very poor family, then it wouldn't really be a choice. The person would have a very hard time trying to get enough money to go school or go to university. It isn't their choice.
Would you also consider a person who is forced into drugs by peer pressure and then for them to get addicted and keep taking it to be a choice?
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way~
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted July 21, 2008 10:32 AM |
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Well, I am from a poor family, not that poor to starve or not to have a PC/internet connection (although I'd certainly not have the high-end PC I have now if I couldn't get it free, as I did ;P), but we can't afford many luxuries (car, etc) and we live in a tiny flat (35 m^2).
Fortunately schools and universities at Poland are free
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