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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: The Evolution of Towns: Heroes 6 Possibilities
Thread: The Evolution of Towns: Heroes 6 Possibilities
polaris
polaris


Promising
Known Hero
posted August 18, 2008 02:52 AM

The Evolution of Towns: Heroes 6 Possibilities

The towns in the Heroes games have had some evolutions in each entry in the series. What kinds of evolutions do you think they might add in H6?

Here are some ideas I had- some wacky, some mild. You probably won't like all of them but that's why you get to post your own!

===================

-Two dwellings per tier, and you can buy all dwellings. However, you can only upgrade 1 of the dwellings in each tier. Upgrades are important. Might have fewer tiers / fewer factions in order to keep the creature count do-able.

-Horde buildings on every tier except the top tier. However, you cannot purchase all of them; you can only build a certain number of them (limit to be decided by number of tiers and balance).

-Horde buildings are reconcepted. Some of them may still simply increase the weekly production of a corresponding unit (or units!), but there are a large number of other effects they can do in addition to- or instead of- increasing unit growth. For example the Magi horde building might add an additional L1 spell to that town's Mage guild. A gold golem (or a genie) horde might increase gold income of the town. Each Dwarf Soldier horde that you have constructed in towns you own might increase the attack and defense of all Dwarf Soldiers you control. One faction might have a high level horde building that increases troop growth for all their units. Etc. There should be tension between getting low level hordes for rush (military rush or economic rush) vs. high level hordes for raw power.

-Make towns less well-rounded. Perhaps you can only get a Thief's guild or a Marketplace, but not both (they conflict with each other). Resource Silo or Blacksmith, but not both (short term benefit of war machines vs. long term benefit of resources) etc.

-Temporary Structures. One way of doing temporary structures is to let them be destroyed in combat, but I think that would be frustrating. A more desirable way would be usage-based or time-based expiration. Generally any structure that grants a temporary boost fits well as a temporary structure, and there are many of these already in the series. A good example would be the Mana Well type structures that double the visiting hero's mana. After a certain number of usages, the Mana Well evaporates and needs to be reconstructed. Other examples might include population boosters (expires next week), luck/morale boosts (expires next battle), move speed boosts (expires next day), necromancy booster (expires next battle), trade rate boosts (expires next day), attribute bonus (expires next battle), etc. Most of these already occured in previous games as permanent structures, but I'm sure there's some good design space I'm missing. Since temporary structures can always be reconcepted as permanent structures, they need to be distinguished with unique benefits. I think high resource cost but very low gold cost should do well. It also makes them more of a late-game tech (when you have surplus resources) which is difficult to do with permanent structures. In particular, I think the necromancy one would work well because it makes necromancy more powerful only while you're near your home town, because the effect doesn't span as far as the necromancy amplifiers do.

-Loosen the 1 building per day limit. You can build any number of non-military buildings in a day, but only one military building. Military buildings include dwellings, dwelling upgrades, hordes, forts, and possibly mage guild. Also can't upgrade a building more than once in a day (e.g. for town halls), nor build and upgrade the same building in the same day (e.g. for marketplace). Might reduce starting resources for this change.

===================

I imagine there will be quite a bit of confusion about some of my wackier ideas because I'm not too worried about balance at this point and I'm sure many people thought of balance problems before reading through my whole list. I'm of the opinion that if something is too powerful it's effect can be toned down or tweaked or whatever. Nonetheless, do share any balance problems you see with your crystal ball (it always opens the door for more discussion, after all).

So those were some of my ideas, now what are yours?
____________

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 18, 2008 06:13 AM
Edited by MattII at 03:53, 21 Mar 2009.

Quote:
-Two dwellings per tier, and you can buy all dwellings. However, you can only upgrade 1 of the dwellings in each tier. Upgrades are important. Might have fewer tiers / fewer factions in order to keep the creature count do-able.


This would need a H4 style system of exclusive (to base it on anyway) creatures, which some people might disagree with.

Quote:
-Horde buildings on every tier except the top tier. However, you cannot purchase all of them; you can only build a certain number of them (limit to be decided by number of tiers and balance).


How about hordes which work across several tiers eg, a Stronghold based horde which boosts both Warriors and Slayers, or a Sylvan one which boosts all the elves?

Quote:
-Horde buildings are reconcepted. Some of them may still simply increase the weekly production of a corresponding unit (or units!), but there are a large number of other effects they can do in addition to- or instead of- increasing unit growth. For example the Magi horde building might add an additional L1 spell to that town's Mage guild. A gold golem (or a genie) horde might increase gold income of the town. Each Dwarf Soldier horde that you have constructed in towns you own might increase the attack and defense of all Dwarf Soldiers you control. One faction might have a high level horde building that increases troop growth for all their units. Etc. There should be tension between getting low level hordes for rush (military rush or economic rush) vs. high level hordes for raw power.


Not an idea I'm so certain about.

Quote:
-Make towns less well-rounded. Perhaps you can only get a Thief's guild or a Marketplace, but not both (they conflict with each other). Resource Silo or Blacksmith, but not both (short term benefit of war machines vs. long term benefit of resources) etc.


Heck, go one better and make some buildings special rather than basic (Resource Silo and Shipyard immediately come to mind), so some towns don't have them, and in others they don't have the same requirements, or even give them several.

Quote:
-Temporary Structures. One way of doing temporary structures is to let them be destroyed in combat, but I think that would be frustrating. A more desirable way would be usage-based or time-based expiration. Generally any structure that grants a temporary boost fits well as a temporary structure, and there are many of these already in the series. A good example would be the Mana Well type structures that double the visiting hero's mana. After a certain number of usages, the Mana Well evaporates and needs to be reconstructed. Other examples might include population boosters (expires next week), luck/morale boosts (expires next battle), move speed boosts (expires next day), necromancy booster (expires next battle), trade rate boosts (expires next day), attribute bonus (expires next battle), etc. Most of these already occured in previous games as permanent structures, but I'm sure there's some good design space I'm missing. Since temporary structures can always be reconcepted as permanent structures, they need to be distinguished with unique benefits. I think high resource cost but very low gold cost should do well. It also makes them more of a late-game tech (when you have surplus resources) which is difficult to do with permanent structures. In particular, I think the necromancy one would work well because it makes necromancy more powerful only while you're near your home town, because the effect doesn't span as far as the necromancy amplifiers do.


A possibility, but not one I like the sound of.

Quote:
-Loosen the 1 building per day limit. You can build any number of non-military buildings in a day, but only one military building. Military buildings include dwellings, dwelling upgrades, hordes, forts, and possibly mage guild. Also can't upgrade a building more than once in a day (e.g. for town halls), nor build and upgrade the same building in the same day (e.g. for marketplace). Might reduce starting resources for this change.


I don't know about losing the limit altogether, but make the limit more complex eg, a Village Hall provides 10 construction points per day and a Town Hall 15 and so on. Then perhaps a Fort costs 10 points, but a Market costs only 5, and a Citidal 15. so you can construct a Fort on day one, then a Marketplace on day 2, but this will leave you with 5 extra points, so you spend those 5 on a Citidal, to be completed by the end of day 3, etc. In this sense, projects could run over multiple days, but points aren't stored day-to-day.

A few of my thoughts about towns-

-Money now gained from Tax Office (normally prebuilt) based on town level.

-Creature recruitment now based on town level eg, level 1 creatures have population cost of 1 so get 12 level 12 town, but level 2 has cost of 1.5 so only get 8, and level 3 has cost of 2, so get 6, etc.

-A more H2 style of defences eg, corner towers built separately among other things.

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polaris
polaris


Promising
Known Hero
posted August 25, 2008 08:07 AM

Quote:
Re: 2 dwelling per tier

This would need a H4 style system of exclusive (to base it on anyway) creatures, which some people might disagree with.


No, not really. You get all the creatures every time, unlike H4. However you still need to make choices on upgrades, as is the case in H5 newest expansion, I believe. H4 had problems I would rather not see again, and this idea was specifically crafted to take the good and drop the bad.

Quote:
Re: Horde buildings on every tier

How about hordes which work across several tiers eg, a Stronghold based horde which boosts both Warriors and Slayers, or a Sylvan one which boosts all the elves?


Just fine with me.

Quote:
Re: Horde buildings reconcepted

Not an idea I'm so certain about.


In the interest of creating discussion, could you elaborate on what you're not certain about? What's wrong with it that could be improved?

Quote:
Re: Less rounded towns

Heck, go one better and make some buildings special rather than basic (Resource Silo and Shipyard immediately come to mind), so some towns don't have them, and in others they don't have the same requirements, or even give them several.


Why not?

Quote:
Re: Temporary Structures

A possibility, but not one I like the sound of.


Again, could you give some specifics? I realized in advance this one would probably be the least popular proposal on my list, but a general allegation that it sounds bad is not particularly useful in refining the idea or discovering something better to replace it.

Quote:
Re: 1 building per day limit

I don't know about losing the limit altogether, but make the limit more complex eg, a Village Hall provides 10 construction points per day and a Town Hall 15 and so on. Then perhaps a Fort costs 10 points, but a Market costs only 5, and a Citidal 15. so you can construct a Fort on day one, then a Marketplace on day 2, but this will leave you with 5 extra points, so you spend those 5 on a Citidal, to be completed by the end of day 3, etc. In this sense, projects could run over multiple days, but points aren't stored day-to-day.


I don't know about losing the limit altogether either which is why I didn't attempt to remove it. Just change it-- like you did in your counterproposal

There is merit in your suggestion, but I am hesitant to endorse it due to the complexity of the idea. I'm not so sure it's a good gameplay mechanic to have to add up some numbers on buildings you want to calculate what your options are. The advantage of my suggestion is that a late-game conquered town can quickly be built up when you have lots of extra resources, but still can't turn the face of the board too quickly because the most important part of the town- the military- is still locked down on a timer. Conversely, early game conquered towns still have slow progressions due to lack of excess resources. Which is why I contemplated adjusted starting resources in the original post.

Quote:
A few of my thoughts about towns-

-Money now gained from Tax Office (normally prebuilt) based on town level.

-Creature recruitment now based on town level eg, level 1 creatures have population cost of 1 so get 12 level 12 town, but level 2 has cost of 1.5 so only get 8, and level 3 has cost of 2, so get 6, etc.

-A more H2 style of defences eg, corner towers built separately among other things.


Now that's what I'm talking about! Put up your own ideas so we can bask in the glory of your creativity!

Here are my thoughts on the particulars:
-Re: Tax Office
What's the difference between a tax office and a town hall? Please clarify.

-Re: Creature recruitment
So every building in your town is like a small piece of a fort upgrade? Could work, but between dwellings, [actual] fort upgrades, and any ol' building upgrading growth, I think there are two issues to consider: 1) What does this do to week 1 population growth? [when you hardly have any buildings] 2) Does this change the interrelationship between the tiers? [not as many low level units will have been accumulated by the time you reach high tiers, meaning you might be even more reliant on high level tier units; ie. first tier units are even more valueless]
Also as a comment this would probably increase the gap between low level towns and high level towns even more. Not necessarily bad or good, just a comment.

-Re: H2 defenses
Have to disagree about H2 defenses, I don't like the asymmetry of having a left tower but not a right tower- it just feels wrong and looks wrong. Now breaking the defenses up into more different buildings has potential merit, but I would need to see some more specifics before passing judgment.

Cheers!
____________

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 25, 2008 01:01 PM

Quote:
No, not really. You get all the creatures every time, unlike H4. However you still need to make choices on upgrades, as is the case in H5 newest expansion, I believe. H4 had problems I would rather not see again, and this idea was specifically crafted to take the good and drop the bad.


Oh, then the difference to what we currently have is more-or-less academic, 8 creatures, but only 4 upgrades between them (8 creatures is the optimum I figure, 6 is too few, 10 too many). Of course, someone will still complain about a lack of levels, and I'm a little uneasy about academically limiting the number of upgrades available (with H4 dwelling were exclusive, you had 5 spots 2 for level 1, and one for each of the rest, but how would you explain only having one 'upgrade' per level?).

Quote:
In the interest of creating discussion, could you elaborate on what you're not certain about? What's wrong with it that could be improved?


I guess it's just that I don't like seeing buildings having multiple abilities more than any specific concerns.

Quote:
Again, could you give some specifics? I realized in advance this one would probably be the least popular proposal on my list, but a general allegation that it sounds bad is not particularly useful in refining the idea or discovering something better to replace it.


I'm not happy with the whole idea of temporary structures, maybe structures that can only be used a certain number of times in a time period (once a day, 3 times a week) or takes a certain number of days to regenerate (luck booster is usable once, then can't be used until second day afterwards), but not structures that you have to keep rebuilding.

Quote:
There is merit in your suggestion, but I am hesitant to endorse it due to the complexity of the idea. I'm not so sure it's a good gameplay mechanic to have to add up some numbers on buildings you want to calculate what your options are.


Point taken. Maybe a bar along the top of the building window then, showing you (in green?) how many construction points you have left today (with some black ones for the next few days that go yellow if it's a hangover), and how many you've used (in red?) to make easy to judge, eg, you have two construction points left of three, so if you move over a 2 point building all your remaining points go orange, indicating that you'll complete it today, but if you move over a 3 point building, both your spaces go orange, and ine of the black spaces for the next day goes yellow, indicating an overhang.

Quote:
The advantage of my suggestion is that a late-game conquered town can quickly be built up when you have lots of extra resources, but still can't turn the face of the board too quickly because the most important part of the town- the military- is still locked down on a timer. Conversely, early game conquered towns still have slow progressions due to lack of excess resources. Which is why I contemplated adjusted starting resources in the original post.


As with some of your other ideas though, you're sticking limits in places that might be a bit vague, I mean, how would you classify a Training Grounds, or a Stables.

Quote:
-Re: Tax Office
What's the difference between a tax office and a town hall? Please clarify.


A tax office is a one-off building, relying on the town level, which is dictated by the village/town/etc. hall (village is level 1, town level 2, etc. Halls are now exclusively used to decide town level, rather than the money gathered and/or a creature boost.

Quote:
-Re: Creature recruitment
So every building in your town is like a small piece of a fort upgrade? Could work, but between dwellings, [actual] fort upgrades, and any ol' building upgrading growth, I think there are two issues to consider: 1) What does this do to week 1 population growth? [when you hardly have any buildings] 2) Does this change the interrelationship between the tiers? [not as many low level units will have been accumulated by the time you reach high tiers, meaning you might be even more reliant on high level tier units; ie. first tier units are even more valueless]
Also as a comment this would probably increase the gap between low level towns and high level towns even more. Not necessarily bad or good, just a comment.


Actually, my idea is a lot simpler than it looks. As above with the Tax Office above, the number of creatures you get is based entirely on  the hall, and a constant, eg. a level 1 unit has a population cost of 0.25 base, and 0.2 with a horde. In this, a village (level 1) will have 4 creatures available (5 with horde), but a city (level 3) will have 12 creatures available (15 with horde). I admit, this may seem a bit odd, so I may have to adjust the numbers.

Quote:
-Re: H2 defenses
Have to disagree about H2 defenses, I don't like the asymmetry of having a left tower but not a right tower- it just feels wrong and looks wrong. Now breaking the defenses up into more different buildings has potential merit, but I would need to see some more specifics before passing judgment.


I do want defences to be stronger in the later game, not the afterthought they were in H3 (I don't know if they're any better in 4 or 5). You might be right with the left/right towers, but how about a towers on the gatehouse as well as the walls and keep? I also want uncastled towns to have some defence, even if its only a palisade (like a Blade Barrier, but without the return damage and magic resistance), and for the moat to be available separate at this level, rather than being attached to, or even requiring a castle.

I think the most dramatic change, though, would be the defences being dependent on both the castle and hall, high level castles have tougher defences than low level ones, but high level halls allow defences to do more damage to attackers than low level ones.

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Darkshadow
Darkshadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted August 25, 2008 08:05 PM

Maybe more options to thieves guild, such as:

Town defence sabotage:sabotages a tower (only 1 per town)

Steal resource:steals 3-4 of common resource and 1-3 of rare resource.

Poison the water:reduces morale by 1 (except for undead)

and all that would fall in that category.Of course these would cost a balanced amount.
____________

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 26, 2008 11:24 AM
Edited by MattII at 11:25, 26 Aug 2008.

Quote:
Town defence sabotage:sabotages a tower (only 1 per town)

Steal resource:steals 3-4 of common resource and 1-3 of rare resource.

Poison the water:reduces morale by 1 (except for undead)


I don't really like the idea of any of those, I'd prefer something like, reveal random enemy town, or track random enemy hero till the end of the week (paying per day) or something like that, espionage rather than sabotage.

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Brawlermatrix
Brawlermatrix


Thinking Outside the Box
posted August 26, 2008 03:38 PM
Edited by Brawlermatrix at 04:37, 27 Aug 2008.

Quote:
Quote:
Town defence sabotage:sabotages a tower (only 1 per town)

Steal resource:steals 3-4 of common resource and 1-3 of rare resource.

Poison the water:reduces morale by 1 (except for undead)


I don't really like the idea of any of those, I'd prefer something like, reveal random enemy town, or track random enemy hero till the end of the week (paying per day) or something like that, espionage rather than sabotage.


What would be wrong about the potential to sabotage or even disband of garrisoned forces before combat, even though that is a expansion of the base idea given by DarkShadow, where would it detract from the idea of combat as it could be a key factor in a victory or a loss based on how the town was infiltrated.
If all towns have a thieves guild then there is also a potential to use that fact to your advantage, being able to spy on the formation and structure of the town and garrison at a cost within reason to the type of infiltration desired.


Why not consider both a sabotage and espionage aspect to the thief's guild for example;
Thief's Guild
All Thief's guilds are connected by the honor amongst thief's
Making any thief's guild a potential target for access for sabotage or espionage.

Sabotage:
Sabotage Construction:
Poison Water Reserve:
Garrison Disband:
Resource Steal:

Espionage:
Intelligence Report:
Locate Hero/Forces:
Locate Controlled Town:
Locate Controlled Resources:

____________
Think outside the box and see
true potential, stay inside the
box and say the same.

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