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| Thread: Arena tournament |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 09, 2008 12:57 PM |
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Quote:
sq is overrated. the footman rank suits him perfectly
this is not the point here ... so let's not divagate from the subject.
I want everyone that had an oppinion in this thread to answer those two questions that i asked. Please use your best arguments so we can understand what can and what cannot be done.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted September 09, 2008 01:08 PM |
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1. final fight is just half of this game (or even less). maybe the most important, but still. keep in mind that a full game requires creeping, scouting, micromanagement and in the end fight. so an arena champion could be a lot less skilled creeper, etc...
2. irrelevant
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 09, 2008 02:04 PM |
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Quote:
1. final fight is just half of this game (or even less). maybe the most important, but still. keep in mind that a full game requires creeping, scouting, micromanagement and in the end fight. so an arena champion could be a lot less skilled creeper, etc...
2. irrelevant
Arena is not just a final fight ...
Creeping part is the only thing missing, but that part is just dork stuff, learning how stupid the AI is, and screaming to his face :
" You stupid AI, I tricked you again, with the same old trick  !".
Killing throngs of zombies with few pixies, or hordes of angels with some skellies and dark magic doesn't require alot of mastery, not to mention stalkers and destructive. I think any good (arena or no arena) player, can learn those patterns that make the AI stupid enough to lose the battles with few losses or none. In my oppinion, by not creeping, you are not losing too much.
Scouting, I'll give you that, Arena lacks scouting, and scouts ... But what are you actually scouting in a game where you know the map already(as most of the games happen on familiar maps, very few on random) ?
I don't know what exactly you mean by micromanagement, but you must manage your economy in Arena also, you must split your money and resources between troops, skills and artifacts.
By this I don't want to say that Arena takes care of all the aspects of the game, but it is a balanced map, and it CAN determine if a player is skilled or not in heroes.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 09, 2008 02:19 PM |
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I'm against it unless it works as an independent tournament. It's not just creeping, there are so many options, risk assessment, movement planning, development choices present in a regular game that you miss out. Arena is a fast forward button that skips all strategic thinking to get you there without casualties or effort, an empty game to decide the winner. It's for the same reason that duel mode could never work in toh even if it was better balanced.
Also the fact that numerous duels can be fought in a single game's duration does not help things.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted September 09, 2008 03:57 PM |
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Edited by sq79 at 15:58, 09 Sep 2008.
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We can just have a league and from there play for arena points, nothing to do with toh points?
Honestly don't think its right as well to report arena games for normal toh games.
Problem with arena is if you get unlucky with matchups and spells and skills offered, there's little you could do to savage the situation because the fight takes place on day 1, so its actually very different from map playing
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 09, 2008 04:21 PM |
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Elvin, Sq , first of all, you are missing the questions. Answer those please.
Second of all, as I said before, a league of our own at ToH would be perfect, but i doubt that we are gonna find an asp programmer to do it.
Thirdly, I am aware that match-ups are not fully balanced, and sometimes you might get bad ones, that is why I proposed a 2out of 3 games matchup for a win. That way the result will be alot more accurate.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 09, 2008 04:31 PM |
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Very well. No I don't believe that a good arena player will be lousy in the rest though I will say that he could have lost the game before it even got to that battle. Naturally there is great difference in each field even between the good players that will not show there. Still that's irrelevant for me since I could not accept arena matches having the same worth as regular games.
And yes I'd feel cheated if someone got the same points by playing a duel.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted September 09, 2008 04:34 PM |
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Quote:
So in the end I just want everyone to be objective and answer these questions :
1. Do you think a high ranked Arena player(good player) , will be a lousy normal game player, and he won't deserve his rank ?
2. Or does it bother you that by playing 3-4 hours, he will get as much points as you would for a full game ?
1.WTF is "high arena player"? If he dont play normal games he is complete h5 n00b. If he play both, you can find easy your answer.
2.Yes its bother me. Its prety easy to abuse points sistems with arena games.
Maybe arena games can be "add for report" in toh page. Just for statistic. No points from arena games.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted September 09, 2008 04:39 PM |
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First of all, I'm glad to hear from Tower so much passion for incorporating arena games into TOH
Here is the experience from HeroesLeague concerning the same issue:
1. As a result of long discussion players there almost unanimously decided that mixing both rankings is poor enterprise. Some even suggested that there should be different rating for arena and duels as well... Obvioulsy, we won't tread that path.
2. In many cases, excellent arena players have proven to be only above average full game players and vice versa. Aspects of kingdom logistics, economics, planning and execution, flexibility - that all are important parts in full online game - do take their toll and it's not surprising to see in HeroesLeague that there are somewhat different leaders in both types of game.
My personal conviction:
I don't endorse the idea of mixing both ratings. I hope we can find that programmer. I'm ready to contribute in system design. Anyway, before we proceed, let's see if Ves doesn't cut the idea at root. 
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 09, 2008 07:08 PM |
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To Elvin:
Let's assume the following situation:
You get to be a Baraon, after a while, by playing regular maps.
A player, lets call him "S" , who also plays on the same level as you do, becomes a Baron by playing Arena games mostly. If you were to play against him a regular game, the chances would be fifty-fifty...
Are you saying that he doesn't deserve to have the same rank as you do? And if so, my question is why ?
To Elit:
It's not hard to understand ... High ranked Arena player = Emperor , Lord , Legionnare etc... gained by playing Arena games. I thought emperors were smarter than that 
It's also easy "to abuse" by playing Land of the Outcasts, Mystic Vale or other small maps at ToH.
To Strider:
From what I've seen you were no. 1 at ToH , and also won Arena at HeroesLeague ... And I think those guys that you are talking about, are only above average in the regular games because they don't pay attention to that kind of games very much, don't have experience in many maps etc. Even you are afraid to play Sq on Hourglass, because he would kick your ass due to his superior experience. That's what happens to those guys probably, but if they started training for normal games I bet they could be as almost good as they are in Arena.
In the end I fully endorse the ideea of a separate ranking for Arena, but I am believe that is not going to happen, because that normally means Vesuvius will have to put on the payroll, a programmer for a while ...
Also as I understand, the only way to report games currently at ToH, is through main rankings, so any separate (which would also be very nice) Arena Tournament is impossible, unless it will be connected to that.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted September 09, 2008 09:55 PM |
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@ TOWERLORD--
The reason is simply this. Its only possible to complete 1 game per day usually if playing standard... Whereas you can play 15-20 Arena games per day... maybe more lol.. so how do you expect the normal game players to compete when you are potentially gaininng 300pts a day and I gain 30pts.
Besides the rankings is there to gauge over all skill in the game. Creeping - building - strategy. Duel games are only Battle Skills.
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 09, 2008 10:08 PM |
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I just answered this in the other thread.
Ahhh... you are making me dizzy , I think I'd better buy a russian dictionary and go to heroes league instead of arguing with some narrow minded people.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 09, 2008 10:12 PM |
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Quote:
You get to be a Baraon, after a while, by playing regular maps.
A player, lets call him "S" , who also plays on the same level as you do, becomes a Baron by playing Arena games mostly. If you were to play against him a regular game, the chances would be fifty-fifty...
Are you saying that he doesn't deserve to have the same rank as you do? And if so, my question is why ?
By playing duels no he doesn't. This is theoretical since it's a given that we are equal but in reality who tells me he can handle full games as good as I do? Forget the points for a moment. I'll give an example, suppose I'm good at inferno duels because I've practiced but I simply suck at this faction. Does that make me as good as someone who has the creativity and skill to let's say play without warmachines? And what about risks? I will lose some games because of them or bad luck, he will lose none.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 09, 2008 10:52 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
You get to be a Baraon, after a while, by playing regular maps.
A player, lets call him "S" , who also plays on the same level as you do, becomes a Baron by playing Arena games mostly. If you were to play against him a regular game, the chances would be fifty-fifty...
Are you saying that he doesn't deserve to have the same rank as you do? And if so, my question is why ?
By playing duels no he doesn't. This is theoretical since it's a given that we are equal but in reality who tells me he can handle full games as good as I do? Forget the points for a moment. I'll give an example, suppose I'm good at inferno duels because I've practiced but I simply suck at this faction. Does that make me as good as someone who has the creativity and skill to let's say play without warmachines? And what about risks? I will lose some games because of them or bad luck, he will lose none.
He is as good as you are ... shouldn't he have the same rank as you have ? That's what a ranking system should reflect, the real power of the participants.
And if someone is good at playing Inferno in the Arena, it means he knows how to deal with all the other races in battle, and thus he cannot suck at that faction.
What does creativity and skill have to do with playing without war machines? This is just a simple game choice that you make, knowing that on a big map with lots of troops, War Machines power in the final battle is not worthed the effort and other skills can be better.
There are plenty of risks in the Arena also, just play it against a decent opponent and you'll see.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 09, 2008 11:17 PM |
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Tower Lord
Some veterans here are enough nice to explain you why arena games will never be played for regular points.
While arguing can be interesting, there is NO WAY Vesuvius will allow you guys to play them as regular games. You can react,ask why, and wait for answers.
It is a subtourney just for fun, as it always was. Arena was played in HoMM3 tournaments and its name was Fest tourney if I remember well.
Don't you think being somehow arrogant to tell them they are narrow mind people? Who are you?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 09, 2008 11:50 PM |
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The reasons why arenas should not count as games I believe has long been pointed out but I'll answer.
For starters points do not necessarily reflect skill, they reflect how much free time you have Some lords are better some are worse yet they may have same points. If someone wants to reach me he's free to do so by playing maps as I did, cope as I did, risk his @ss for those points. And no you won't convince me the risks are the same.
The example I mentioned on inferno. Anyone can train a few days to play well an inferno duel but knowing how to handle all aspects of inferno takes a hell of a long time. Fact. Final battles are not everything, they are crucial but not all.
The machine example was because some take the easy way out with ballista/tent and would suck badly without their assistance so if they don't get it early it could mess with their creeping. Knowing warmachines does not equal knowing creeping. Fact. And yes it depends on map, I just wanted to illustrate my point.
Regardless the arguing is futile, not only because it blatantly seems a bad idea but because it's not up to us.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted September 09, 2008 11:51 PM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 00:04, 10 Sep 2008.
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This is fun! I feel like I am trying to get my 3 year old to understand something.. Just have to keep trying till it clicks...
I almost never play Inferno.. in recent game I thought I would try and learn them.. And WOW did I find out that creeping with them is SOOO much different. There is no Rez to count on... I couldnt keep from losing atleast some troops... and I am used to losing almost none in a game. I was freaking. ONce I got vampirsm it was better... but that doesnt help vs. Elemental and undead battles..
So my point is this... when playing a normal game that involved skilled creeping and planning thru out entire game.. when I meet up with my opponent.. maybe I lost 2 devils 60 imps 12 succumbus 30 hounds... along my journy to the final battle.. cause I suck at Creeping with inferno! Whereas if I play inferno Arena.. there is no creeping.. I am presented with a full inferno army.. Now I am AWESOME and battleing with inferno.. but suck at creeping.. so there is NO way you can say that they show the same skill level of a player.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted September 10, 2008 02:23 AM |
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Edited by Elit at 02:24, 10 Sep 2008.
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Quote:
To Elit:
It's not hard to understand ... High ranked Arena player = Emperor , Lord , Legionnare etc... gained by playing Arena games. I thought emperors were smarter than that
It's also easy "to abuse" by playing Land of the Outcasts, Mystic Vale or other small maps at ToH.
My qestion was rhetorical. Arena games is so easy for play. All what you need is to test in home tactics. After it you can beat alot good heroes players because arena and real heroes are different games. For example Anwen is one from best Sylvan arena/heroes for his special. He is very rare used in normal games but rox for arena.
Arena is for fun noting more. You cant call any arena player "high rank" because its not. To be good arena player no need much skills.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted September 10, 2008 07:31 AM |
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As Salamandre said, these sort of games wouldn't be counted for TOH points. It would create massive point inflation, and make regular games worthless.
This sort of subtourney can be set up thru this message board, and winloss reports posted here. With a finals/finish, there can be prestige points and bonus ranking points added to the top players as credit.
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 10, 2008 08:57 AM |
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Elvin, in every game played in this world, ranking systems struggle to show the real power of the players involved, not the time spent playing.
I recommend that you read this page, to see that ToH wants the same:
Toh new player
Elit, if you think it's so easy, and requires no skill, I challenge you to defeat me 5 of out 9, in the arena. Keep in mind that different heroes, are good on different maps in regular games also.
Vesuvius I agree, it could create point inflation, but only because of the point scoring formula at ToH, which awards more points for a win, than it substracts for a loss (between players with equal points).
Anyway, the fact that ToH will be hosting an Arena tournament, is a good start, I think ToH is making a step in the right direction, and it will bring more players to this tournament.
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