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mvassilev
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posted October 05, 2008 02:35 AM |
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Immigration
I realize that this is a controversial topic, but let's keep this discussion civil. No racism, please.
I think the latest estimate is that there are 12 million illegal immigrants in the US. Clearly, that is a problem - they broke the law. And both of our presidential candidates want to give them amnesty! That's just rewarding them for breaking the law. I have nothing against immigrants - I am one myself. But illegal immigration is a different matter.
Unfortunately, though, the two most common arguments against immigration can be summed up this: "DEY TOOK OUR JERBS!!!" and "DEY'S DESTROYIN OUR KULCHOOR!!!" The first is not a valid argument at all. There's no such thing as "our jobs". There are people that companies employ and there are people that companies don't employ. They may employ anyone they want, regardless of national origin (unless, of course, he/she is an illegal immigrant). And they can employ people in other parts of the world. People are not entitled to a job, so they should stop saying "DEY TOOK OUR JERBS!". I'm looking at you, Lou Dobbs. And, besides, more competition drives wages down, which drives costs down, making things better for everybody. (But this last sentence should not become the main subject of the thread.  )
The second argument is often raised by cultural conservatives. Is it true? Maybe. If true, is it an actual problem? It depends. On one hand, it isn't good to import people from other countries who just turn around and sit on welfare, and make it more acceptable. Even more importantly, it is important not to massively have immigration of people who would impose an oppressive system, such as Sharia law. On the other hand, some objection from cultural conservatives is laughable - they may be opposed to the immigration of educated people because they are likely to be "godless atheists" or that they are "too success-driven, and don't have 'family values'". Such objections are indeed ridiculous.
What is my objection to just letting everybody in, if I think that increased job competition is good? First, it is that there would be massive migration, huge slums, an increase in crime, and a drop in the standard of living. Second, it is what I said earlier - that some may just leech off the system, or impose their own preferences on others. Third, and most controversially, the problem with massive unskilled workers is not actually a problem with massive unskilled workers - but with their children. While their parents work hard, they live in a poor neighborhood, and, in rich countries, poor neighborhoods are known for their higher crime rate and poor schools. Since the parents are working, they can't be with their children so much, and pass on their excellent work ethic. Thus, many of their children end up in gangs and become criminals.
Such is the problem with mass migration of unskilled workers. This is why we need an expansive guest worker program - so they can come and work, and so a lot of them can do so, but so they don't settle and bring up children here.
On the other hand, skilled immigrants usually have no such problem, which is why we should give a greencard to any foreigner who has any postgraduate degree in any marketable skill (medicine, science, math, engineering, etc) after a basic background check and a verification of the degree's authenticity. Skilled immigrants tend to rise much more quickly, so their children don't spend such a long time (indeed, if any) in poor neighborhoods, and they usually have more time to spend with their children and pass on their values.
HC, your opinions?
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Doomforge
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posted October 05, 2008 12:39 PM |
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My opinion is: Immigration is good.
Because if you earn 1/10 of what your neighbor does (Like Germans and Poles  ) AND he gets stuff like cars and computers for 50-80% of what they cost in your country.. lol. Talk about it being fair. It's ridiculous.
Why should we demand from people to stay in such a place?
Why should we accept what those damned importers set?
I know everyone wants to become rich, but they are such leeches. They sell stuff for twice the price in a poorer country.. TEN TIMES poorer country.
Why do we, intelligent people, have to agree with that?
Unfortunately we can't change our poor countries within our lifetime. The only way, no matter how selfish it looks, is to get the heck away from here.
Sad but true.
As for the impact of the immigration on culture.. well. The immigrants are still MINORITY. Social minorities rarely set rules (except for few privileged groups ofc.) or have any impact at all at the culture. It doesn't matter whether we have 1 or 100 Black students on Warsaw Tech.. it doesn't matter whether whether we have 1000 or 10000 Chinese inhabitants. They are people like we are and they can assimilate. Most of them, at least.
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xerox
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posted October 05, 2008 12:56 PM |
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There are to many "bad" immigrants in my country ;( (sweden)
Everybody just wants to fight, if they come to our country then they should learn that we never hit each other here - we talk like civilized people.
Plus they are always like "omg racist omg" and skip school and refuses to learn swedish and just suck at everything they do.
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Doomforge
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posted October 05, 2008 01:02 PM |
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That's pretty sad. I think that all immigrants should learn the language of the country they are in as fast as possible.. Helps both sides.. >_>
And it's really easy to learn a foreign language while living in corresponding country.. I'd say thrice easier than learning it at your own country
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Adrius
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posted October 05, 2008 01:04 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 13:55, 05 Oct 2008.
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There are to many "bad" immigrants in my country ;( (sweden)
Everybody just wants to fight, if they come to our country then they should learn that we never hit each other here - we talk like civilized people.
Plus they are always like "omg racist omg" and skip school and refuses to learn swedish and just suck at everything they do.
Dude, the idiots per capita is much larger among Swedes. Don't talk like you know everyone of them.
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Adrius
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posted October 05, 2008 01:16 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 13:24, 05 Oct 2008.
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I just wanted to say something here... many people seem to have a vision of Sweden as some sort of ultimate equality country, untrue.
Sweden has something that I'd like to call silent-rascism. We don't say anything, because we're so damn isolated. That's why many Swedes become so damn terrified when they meet someone like, let's say an Iranian person, they are so much more open than Swedes and are willing to share much more.
Swedes in regular are scared to show too much of themselves. But the rascism is still there!
I know, because I have about 200 iranian relatives... I remember one time when my family, my aunt and my aunt's husband (who's iranian, and pretty damn rich too) went to a restaurant in Stockholm. At the door, they let everyone in except for the husband, they told him "Only members" and showed him out.
WHAT THE HELL?! We're like, 4 middleclass hillbillys people who visit Stockholm, like, 2 times per year! We're not extremly fancy dressed or anything, in fact, my Iranian relative was among the most welldressed in the whole place! And we're absolutely not members! There was no such thing as a member section in there...
We just told them to **** off and got the hell out of there.
God... I hate Sweden sometimes...
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del_diablo
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posted October 05, 2008 03:00 PM |
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Norway is not that dam different from sweden. The adults are the worst, but the kids never know what it is and does not behave bad til the adults brainwash em.
In Norway............. our problem is part of the way childcare money is sent and that stuff. Freaking many polish workers, and their kids get childcare(and the kids are living in Poland with their other parent <.< ), it kind of feels wrong.
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executor
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posted October 05, 2008 04:34 PM |
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Edited by executor at 16:44, 05 Oct 2008.
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I generally agree with Mvass on this topic, with a addition that you can as well relocate production instead of slurping workers from outside.
I am of opinion that if society of a given state refuses to take in any group of immigrants for whatever reason, they should be allowed to not let them in.
@doomforge
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My opinion is: Immigration is good.
Depends for whom, and what you want to achieve/gain. If you want to live in a country that *is yours*, you don't emigrate and you don't accept masses of foreigners in.
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Because if you earn 1/10 of what your neighbor does (Like Germans and Poles ) AND he gets stuff like cars and computers for 50-80% of what they cost in your country.. lol. Talk about it being fair. It's ridiculous.
Poles earn 0,4 of what Germans do in real prices. taking into account full spectrum of goods, we aren't that bad off.
Besides, many of price differences are due to cartels operating (e.g. construction materials, which are made in Poland btw.), which is illegal, and can be omitted (buy abroad yourself)
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Why should we demand from people to stay in such a place?
I don't demand them staying, but why demand people in another place letting them in if they don't want them?
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Why should we accept what those damned importers set?
I know everyone wants to become rich, but they are such leeches. They sell stuff for twice the price in a poorer country.. TEN TIMES poorer country.
Oh well, as I stated before, Poland is not 10x poorer but 2,5x poorer, and:
1)nobody forces you to buy
2)you can always go to Germany and buy yourself 
3)cartels(if thet's the case) can be fought by legal means and competition (set up your own import company and conquer the market )
Please note that ANY imported good will be more expensive than in its country of origin, due to transport and currency conversion&risk costs, to say the least.
And before starting to say that Polish administration is corrupt and legal system works as slow as a snail, consider the fact that if nobody faces the problem and escapes abroad, it will continue. It is now as it is because these problems were not adressed for years...
Sorry, that's cowardice for me . I am not for banning it, but I just disapprove.
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Why do we, intelligent people, have to agree with that?
Unfortunately we can't change our poor countries within our lifetime. The only way, no matter how selfish it looks, is to get the heck away from here.
Sad but true.
Sad but true is that I notice attitude you described in far too many Poles... and the more Poles escape, the longer it will take for our country to catch up with the most developed countries.
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As for the impact of the immigration on culture.. well. The immigrants are still MINORITY. Social minorities rarely set rules (except for few privileged groups ofc.) or have any impact at all at the culture. It doesn't matter whether we have 1 or 100 Black students on Warsaw Tech.. it doesn't matter whether whether we have 1000 or 10000 Chinese inhabitants. They are people like we are and they can assimilate. Most of them, at least.
Completely agree, that's why you don't let 'hordes' of foreigners in at once. Look at what happened due to Polish immigration in Ireland. Poor Irish don't feel at home anymore (Poles became ~10% of population within 3 years lol) and they want to get rid of us a very kind way - Poles are to be paid to return home .
And heck, I fully understand them. If I were in their skin, I would feel besieged too.
@deldiablo
Change your childcare rules then or don't invite foreign guest workers, as easy as that .
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Doomforge
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posted October 05, 2008 05:50 PM |
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I don't demand them staying, but why demand people in another place letting them in if they don't want them?
Excuse me, what is the point whether I'm from Poland, France or Germany.. if I'm just peacefully leaving there? Without doing what some immigrants do (forcing their culture, behaving agressive, drinking excessively, stealing even). If somebody feels offended JUST because I am of different nationality.. lol he should go kill himself. Like I cared about such idiots
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Oh well, as I stated before, Poland is not 10x poorer but 2,5x poorer, and:
And German cieæ (a colloquial polish word for janitor ;P) earns more than polish lecturer. Why should I want to remain a lecturer here if I can live a better life as a janitor there? Why? For moral principles? No thx. Even better. I can become a lecturer there. I don't actually have to clean floors, albeit it's better than being a lecturer here anyway.. >__>
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1)nobody forces you to buy
Sure, that's a plan.. I can sulk and NOT buy anything at all >_> Great, next idea please? 
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2)you can always go to Germany and buy yourself
How is this related to overpriced electronic stuff problem of our country?
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3)cartels(if thet's the case) can be fought by legal means and competition (set up your own import company and conquer the market )
Why should I _care_ for other people's pocket if they just don't care about mine and only think how to drain it?
Why should I overpay for everything when I earn so little?
Because those are the rules of free market?
Because I live in a pisspoor country and the only answer is "get over it", "accept it"?
I don't care about the rules. >_> And I don't have to.
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And before starting to say that Polish administration is corrupt and legal system works as slow as a snail, consider the fact that if nobody faces the problem and escapes abroad, it will continue. It is now as it is because these problems were not adressed for years...
Sorry, that's cowardice for me . I am not for banning it, but I just disapprove.
Cowardiance. I know people that are too afraid of trying elsewhere or too brainwashed by the "the only true way of a Pole" aka go to work at 8.00 end at 20.00, get super huge credit, never leave your country, keep sucking up to your boss and die of overwork at the age of 45 propaganda to see a greater opportunity call those who try to think smart in their life cowards, but, of all people, why you, Executor.  You are an intelligent guy as far as I can tell. I'm surprised you really think that way ;P We, simple citizens, will never ever affect things as they are.. we can only affect things indirectly by voting on those that we think will change things.. but you can vote from another country too, you know? And be more useful than those who desperately cling to their little sad world and don't vote at all.
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Sad but true is that I notice attitude you described in far too many Poles... and the more Poles escape, the longer it will take for our country to catch up with the most developed countries.
Come on, like it cared whether you will remain here as a teacher for 300 euro per month or go elsewhere where you can actually LIVE, not just EXIST. If you are afraid of the "not enough teachers" problem that will eventually appear.. you know, at some point they will HAVE to rise the payments. Right now there is still too much unemployed people. Why to care about your employee leaving because of low payment if there is at least three others dreaming of such job, even for a lower payment.. see.. the natural course would be for those "redundant" to leave, so those who remain may have a fair situation.. how many people in our country are desperately afraid of losing their 300europermonth job? Judging from opinion polls.. there is a lot of such people.
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mvassilev
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posted October 05, 2008 05:53 PM |
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Doomforge:
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As for the impact of the immigration on culture.. well. The immigrants are still MINORITY. Social minorities rarely set rules (except for few privileged groups ofc.) or have any impact at all at the culture. It doesn't matter whether we have 1 or 100 Black students on Warsaw Tech.. it doesn't matter whether whether we have 1000 or 10000 Chinese inhabitants. They are people like we are and they can assimilate. Most of them, at least.
In some cases this is true. And if they're at Warsaw Tech, then you don't have to worry about them changing your culture - they're all right. But if they're in the Warsaw Ethnic Housing Project, then worry. But look at the UK, for example. Recently they have adopted Sharia law as an alternative to British law for those who want to be tried by it. Terrible.
Executor:
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And heck, I fully understand them. If I were in their skin, I would feel besieged too.
I wouldn't. Or rather, I might, depending on what they were doing. If they were trying to impose an oppressive system while leeching off welfare, I'd be against them. If they were working hard and contributing to society, I'd welcome more and more of them.
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Change your childcare rules then or don't invite foreign guest workers, as easy as that
Or just make sure that your guest workers are actual guest workers.
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executor
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posted October 05, 2008 08:46 PM |
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Edited by executor at 21:00, 05 Oct 2008.
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@doomforge
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And German cieæ (a colloquial polish word for janitor ;P) earns more than polish lecturer.
Nominally yes, but his standard of living isn't better, due to price level .
But yes, if you compare two lecturers, the difference is high, as well as a lecturer can learn sth abroad .
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2)you can always go to Germany and buy yourself
How is this related to overpriced electronic stuff problem of our country?
If more people bought abroad, the domestic demand would drop and force importerts to cut their moutain-high profit margin to stimulate demand and keep profits. That's how .
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Why should I _care_ for other people's pocket if they just don't care about mine and only think how to drain it?
Why should I overpay for everything when I earn so little?
Because those are the rules of free market?
Because I live in a pisspoor country and the only answer is "get over it", "accept it"?
I don't care about the rules. >_> And I don't have to.
Um... maybe I wasn't clear. Cartels are illegal and they violate the rules of free market, and it's not normal that some prices are *that* high. But nobody cares to expose it, to fight it, yet everyone moans how this country sucks... But that's why it suks  .
IF there was an undisturbed free market in Poland, the believe me, imported cars, electronics etc. would have been cheaper than they are.
And when I explained why imported goods are always more expensive here than where they were made, that's not overpaying, that's paying for thecosts of them being delivered to our country...
How that's unfair, I can't understand...
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You are an intelligent guy as far as I can tell. I'm surprised you really think that way ;P
Surprise surprise . Your perception of my mental abilities has been noted .
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We, simple citizens, will never ever affect things as they are.. we can only affect things indirectly by voting on those that we think will change things.. but you can vote from another country too, you know? And be more useful than those who desperately cling to their little sad world and don't vote at all.
I am shocked to see such an intelligent person as yourself presenting such an opinion...
You can affect small things, from which greater are made(I know it sounds big words, but it's actually true). You can do it every day.
You can set up own bussiness, not be a bloodsucker boss, not overprice your products...
If you want, you can . And if you don't want, then voting won't help much.
Instead some people wnat to live their country, and go somewhere where people already built a fine state themselves. For me, it's escaping the problem. If someone doesn't want to improve his own country, how come he would work to improve another? For that reason alone I would be very selective(and suspicious) of immigrants myself.
Besides, if one votes from abroad, then one probably thinks of returning. If one does, then he/she should realise that leaving your country won't help it. Unless you spend/invest here the money earned abroad. That sollution has an additional plus: you are indeed better off(their earnings + our prices(excluding cars and electronics, which you may buy there )), but as a downside, you are away from your family. That can be fine for a short period of time, and I approve of it .
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elsewhere where you can actually LIVE, not just XIST.
Shocking as it may be, I consider myself to be LIVING HERE, not just EXISTING . Of couse in a more developed country my family would be surely better off, but it isn't that bad, or I just don't feel it.
Furthermore, 300 euro is not worth equal everywhere. Even within Poland, differences in costs of living are high. I a small, provincial town they are worth about 30-50% more than in Warsaw, when measuring their real value.
A research to which I had access around May showed that minimum wage in Poland prevents job creation in poorer regions, while doesn't affect labour market in Warsaw (as nobody there earns so little). 300 euro isn't bad money in a 10k town, you know.
By the way, the next time you call Poland a pisspoor country, consider all those 80% of population who are worse off than you. If we are pisspoor, then what are they?
@mvass
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If they were working hard and contributing to society,
And implanting their culture everywhere, then you might have not wanted *that many* of them.
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Or just make sure that your guest workers are actual guest workers.
deldiablo told about actual guest workers, and what he didn't like was that the childcare money leaves Norway and goes to families of workers abroad.
@doom below:
And since when does electronics and cars make up for whole consumption ? My data are valid, you can check that on eurostat or sth similar if you want.
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Doomforge
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posted October 05, 2008 08:56 PM |
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executor: price levels are actually lower for many things in Ger.. example.. My mate has just returned from a trip to Germany, bought a couple things, incl. a new camera worth +/- 200 euro here (bought it in Germany for 80...) When we checked the prices later, all of them were much higher in Poland. We were quite amazed.
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mvassilev
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posted October 05, 2008 09:53 PM |
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Executor:
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And implanting their culture everywhere, then you might have not wanted *that many* of them.
If they're working hard and contributing to society, and not imposing an oppressive system (such as Sharia Law), I don't care about what kind of cultural traits they have. For example, some are worried that some immigrants are ruining American culture by eating tofu instead of turkey for Thanksgiving. I couldn't care less - as long as they're not imposing anything on me, and not draining my tax dollars, I'm fine with them, no matter what culture they might have.
You see, there's a difference between tofu on Thanksgiving and Sharia in the courts.
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deldiablo told about actual guest workers, and what he didn't like was that the childcare money leaves Norway and goes to families of workers abroad.
Ah, I see. But I've heard that in many cases, guest workers just stay, and don't leave when their visa expires. That's what I was referring to. As for child care for guest workers - don't offer it!
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xerox
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posted October 05, 2008 10:20 PM |
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Im just tired of all the immigrants (okey they are born in sweden, but there are parents are not) seems to have not been raised up at all and just wants to fight everytime when we want to live in peace.
They destroy windows, sometimes even hit other people because its fun, they smoke (ALL of the "immigrants" in my class, who almost never show up anyway, are smoking plus they are 14 years old - so they did one extra year and still are not mature), the adults are the ones that do the most drugs, they murder people etc-
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Doomforge
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posted October 05, 2008 10:24 PM |
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Sure. every immigrant is a murderous bastard.
Perfect example of shallow thinking ;/
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mvassilev
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posted October 05, 2008 10:24 PM |
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They don't do it because they're immigrants. They do it because they've been brought up poorly. If a native Swede were brought up in such an environment, he/she would act that way too. It's just that because of their circumstances, this kind of action is more common among the children of immigrants.
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Adrius
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posted October 05, 2008 11:28 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 02:24, 23 Dec 2008.
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when we want to live in peace.
Oh please... who doesn't? Why do you think most of these people came to Sweden anyway? And I assure you, there are far more swedes who break the law than immigrants.
It's just human nature, it feels much nicer to blame somebody else. I'm not saying that immigrants doesn't commit crimes, many do, but it's mostly our fault.
Most of the crimes are simply misunderstandings of our "allemansrätt", it basically means that I can go into the woods, gather up some wood and start a fire and live there for as long as I want. This however, is easily misunderstood as "if it's just lying there, we can take it." Sweden needs to educate new members of our country on this area.
See? It's not that immigrants doesn't want to learn, it's we who suck at teaching...Quote:
They destroy windows, sometimes even hit other people because its fun, they smoke (ALL of the "immigrants" in my class, who almost never show up anyway, are smoking plus they are 14 years old - so they did one extra year and still are not mature)
Oh yeah? Well, this is also human nature. I'm guessing that these foreign guys don't hang out with anyone but other foreign kids? To survive in a country that only looks down upon them (like you do now), you must have a "gang", and the thing about all gangs is that most of them have a specific behaviour among their members.
I bet that if the leader of this group didn't smoke, none of the others would either. Swedes doesn't need gangs, we're secure with our enviroment (though sometimes gangs are made anyway, these are mostly people who are insecure and afraid, see the connection?)
If we Swedes weren't so damn afraid all the time, we wouldn't have these problems, on the surface, it may look like we're taking people into our country, but in reality, we're silently locking them out.
EDIT: Look at your posts Xerox... count the times you used the word "they" and "we"... this is a typical behaviour...
Read this Xerox, maybe you'll find some sort of revelation in it... (It's in swedish)
It's about how common the use of the words "we" and "them" are among prejudicious people, and how it creates an abyss between us, "the Swedes" from "the others".
This isn't just a swedish thing, Hitler used the same sort of strategy to slowly push the people towards nazism. I'm absolutely not calling you a rascist, far from, but I want to show you how easy it is to "slide into" thoughts of rascism.
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DagothGares
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posted October 06, 2008 12:57 AM |
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I always found the thought of learning the language funny. In Belgium, noone can speak actual dutch ^^ (off course, there are exceptions who studied the language and followed pronunciation courses (like me  )) anyway, I can't understand anyone who lives further than thirty miles away from me and we expect immigrants to speak one of our three languages?
Even worse, we change our language every 25 years (confusing...) and people can also learn german ^^
Only 90.000 people are german in our country, but it's a national language, os people can claim they speak a belgian language and live here.
Also, I do't know what to say, because everyone is scare-mongering is. Morroccons did this! They are evil! they will eat our children and trash your house and drain our economy!
and such and such. I take this with mountainous piles of salt, but I know I'm afraid. I can't help that... And when we're afraid we become prejudiced and easy to manipulate and the government can do whatever they can... 
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JollyJoker
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posted October 06, 2008 08:24 AM |
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Well, Poland and Germany are both members of the EU, so immigration is allowed and possible.
For the EU, centered around Italy, the problem is the illegal immigration from Africa.
Now, it's natural that people who have no future in their own country try and go somewhere where they do have one.
It's obviously not possible to shut the borders, if they are so big as in the EU or in the USA - there will always be illegal immigration as long as the living conditions will be so vastly different.
To solve the problems centered around illegal immigration the rich nations, which means the EU and the US will have to solve the problems of the 3rd world and make sure people have a future in their own country, since it's obvious that the 3rd world countries, especially those around the Western, Eastern and Southern borders of the Sahara and in the really poor countries of Middle and Southern America will improve their living standards.
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mvassilev
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posted October 06, 2008 02:25 PM |
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Agreed. But, meanwhile, it's better not to reward people for breaking the law by giving them amnesty.
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