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| Thread: New Hero property: Stamina |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 05, 2008 07:54 PM |
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New Hero property: Stamina
While I was buttering myself a sanwich for dinner (literally) I just got this small idea which I think actually could work pretty well - but I'd like to hear your guy's (and gal's) oppinions.
We're all familiar with the concept of Mana = 10 x Knowledge (15 x K with Intelligence) which powers your Hero's spells. In parallel to this, I would like to extent the meaning of Hero Defence (and Attack) to affect his direct attack. Changes would be like this:
Attack: Affects Hero direct attack by increasing damage by 5 % for each Attack point (or something like that). Base damage is determined by Hero level.
Defence: Affects Hero direct attack by providing him Stamina.
Stamina: Stamina = 10 x Defence when fully rested (15 x Defence with special perk "Endurance"). When Hero performs a direct attack, it drains an amount of Stamina, just like casting spells requires Mana. Thus, a Hero would not be able to make infinite amounts of direct attacks during one battle, he could run out of stamina - he is tired.
Details could be elaborated - can he rest to regain Stamina during combat - in similar way, should hero be able to meditate to regain some mana points during combat, for instance regain Mana = Knowledge for each turn meditating? This would give a whole new dimension to Dark Ritual - Hero could literally perform a Dark Ritual (sacrifice some troops!) to regain mana during combat. Nice perk for Warlocks, certainly.  In same way, Hero could rest to regain Stamina (gained Stamina = Defence) and demonic Heroes might even devour some of their troops to regain Stamina.
Well, just the imagination sets limits, really. What do you think - good, bad, silly, imbalanced, irrelevant - or?
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 05, 2008 08:05 PM |
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I think it's an interesting concept.
But I'd also suggest a system with "cool downs" instead of mana, or something like that. Basically, it could be the same as having mana like now, only that it regenerates each turn in battle. Of course, the amount of this "mana" should be considerably lowered for balance reasons. This can be applied to might attacks and your "stamina" system as well, only that instead of mana points we have some other stamina points.
Well I suggest that because once you have no mana left things become less interesting for spellcasters, and with this stamina thing implemented as well it will be even more boring once you're out of both mana and stamina.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 05, 2008 08:07 PM |
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That might not be bad at all  Sometimes they are too strong to be used for free.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 05, 2008 08:08 PM |
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Yeah, deffinitely, that's why I think it would be cool if you had the option to do something to regenerate mana during battle, so that even if you run out, you're not completely ****ed, if you can hold out for a while.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted October 05, 2008 08:09 PM |
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Ohh, and maybe like, magic/stamina attacks? Like turning your sword to fire and stuff? 
CooL!
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted October 05, 2008 08:11 PM |
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So basically it's a second type of mana, aimed at Might-based skills?
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted October 05, 2008 08:17 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 20:21, 05 Oct 2008.
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Pretty much, yes.
If we had might-based abilities, what skill should it be tied to? Something original, like Combat Training or just gained by perks within Attack, Defense etc?
Example:
Attack -> Battle Frenzy -> Berserker Strike (strikes enemy with 120% damage and reduces ATB by 0.3) Drains 20 Stamina
Or maybe a special building that can only be accessed by heroes with attack or defense skills? The building could have circles of combat skills and stuff
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted October 05, 2008 08:18 PM |
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Realisation of all these ideas showed up in new King's Bounty which is actually overcomplicated version of Homm 
Limiting attacks and increasing their strenght is an option, however introduing new type of mana makes no sense. I do stand ToE Warcries as in fact they replace usual spellbook, however cloning things beyond limits is not a good idea. Just check Occams Razor for good reference
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MattII 
Legendary Hero
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posted October 05, 2008 08:59 PM |
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Isn't this essentially what initiative is about, ie, the better you initiative, the better your stamina? If it isn't how would it affect every other unit in the game, wouldn't they need something similar?
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted October 05, 2008 10:48 PM |
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@ MatII - That would be overexamining it slightly. Logical mechanics are a great thing to have in a game, but game mechanics do not have to be logical.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 05, 2008 10:56 PM |
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Really, I always thought that was the reason initiative was introduced, to give each creautre its own time between actions (ergo, its next action occurs when it's fully prepared), and still doesn't answer the question, won't you need to introduce this for everyone else as well?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 06, 2008 12:49 PM |
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Quote:
Limiting attacks and increasing their strenght is an option, however introduing new type of mana makes no sense. I do stand ToE Warcries as in fact they replace usual spellbook, however cloning things beyond limits is not a good idea. Just check Occams Razor for good reference
I must admit I don't really understand this statement - first of all, I'm not talking about "another kind of mana", although there are similarities, as this has nothing to do with spells; secondly, while Occams Razor can be a very good principle to have in mind, it doesn't make it true to say that simple is better, if that's what you imply - it simply says that we shouldn't introduce things without a reason for it.
And ther is a reason for changing the Hero direct attack. For starters, it doesn't make sense that it does more damage to high level creatures than low level creatures - in fact, the more HP the creature has for its level, the more damage the attack does! It does not make any sense that the attack is independant of Heroes Attack score, and neither does it make any sense that its independant of creatures Defence score. And last but not least, it doesn't make sense that attack strength is individual of Hero class - a Wizard does as much damage with his attack as a Barbarian! Huh?
The idea with Stamina is to limit the number of times you can make a direct attack. This is not the same as Initiative - which determines how often. Just like you can't cast an infinite number of spells - because you'll run out of Mana - you shouldn't be able to perform an infinite number of direct attacks - you'll run out of Stamina. In that sense, it balances things between Might and Magic heroes - Spellpower determines the strength of your spells, when you're a mage, and Knowledge determines how many times you can use them. Similarly, Attack would determine the power of your Attack, and Defence would influence how many times you could use it.
This is only one step on the path of creature if not perfect, then at least increased symmetry between the Might and Magic Heroes. For instance, I would introduce a Combat skill, which would reduce the ATB spend when doing a direct attack - just like Sorcery reduces ATB spend on magic attacks (spells). One could introduce a Warriors Guild in town, that would open up for new forms of Attack - just like there is a Mage Guild. And one could expand these features - how much is good, one can discuss, I haven't really made my own mind up on this yet - but certainly, I see here an opportunity to add a lot of new and exciting features to the game.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted October 06, 2008 01:40 PM |
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Quote:
The idea with Stamina is to limit the number of times you can make a direct attack. This is not the same as Initiative - which determines how often. Just like you can't cast an infinite number of spells - because you'll run out of Mana - you shouldn't be able to perform an infinite number of direct attacks - you'll run out of Stamina. In that sense, it balances things between Might and Magic heroes - Spellpower determines the strength of your spells, when you're a mage, and Knowledge determines how many times you can use them. Similarly, Attack would determine the power of your Attack, and Defence would influence how many times you could use it.
why on earth would you want to limit hero direct attack? i mean a creature doesnt have a stamina and shouldnt' have.
What if you stuck in a long battle,or playing orcs who's shouting are next to useless? a hero cant do nothing ya' know? Im against that
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types in obscure english
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted October 06, 2008 01:45 PM |
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OMG I want to meditate in combat!!
Srry. I quite like this idea. However, I think Stamina should either be a bit higher than what you've given or shouldn't cost very much, especially since most heroes are just riding around on a creature, which is less tiering than actually running out to fight personally.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 06, 2008 01:59 PM |
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Quote:
a hero cant do nothing ya' know? Im against that
Did you ever hear about a game called Heroes 3? In Heroes 3, when Hero ran out of Mana, he didn't do anything besides looking pretty on the sideline.
Quote:
why on earth would you want to limit hero direct attack? i mean a creature doesnt have a stamina and shouldnt' have.
What if you stuck in a long battle,or playing orcs who's shouting are next to useless?
I want to limit Hero direct attack for the same reason that spells are limited. Can you imagine playing against a Warlock who has unlimited Mana supply?
What you think is that when I limit Hero attack, I make Barbarian weaker. Quite on the opposite, I actually think that Hero direct attack should be stronger for classes that are very specialised in this, like the Barbarian. The fact that a level 20 Barbarian kills 8 (eight!) Peasants with his direct attack is an utter joke, when a Warlock of his same level could probably wipe out 100 times as many with a single spell. Hence, I want Hero direct attack to be - possibly, if developed in the right way - more effective, but with a counter which is that you can't just spam it infinitely. Orc Warcries may be poor, but Horde's Anger is a lot more potent than the Hero's direct attack as it is now, that's for sure!
And I wouldn't rule out having Stamina for creature's also.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted October 06, 2008 07:19 PM |
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Perhaps as action points? If a creature has enough action points they can move, attack, then move a little more? Or casting a lower level spell takes less stamina/action points than does a higher level spell?
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Ronin
Hired Hero
One cut, one life.
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posted October 06, 2008 11:57 PM |
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Stamina...
I think Stamina as an evolution of the Hero would make him more human, more realistic. However, talking about the game, I think that it would make bigger the disadvantage of the might based heroes in front of the magic based heroes.
We have to consider that a might based hero has a very low mana capacity. What happens if a might based hero run out of mana? Well, he has to depend on his sword. At his point, the magic based hero has a nice stock of fresh mana.
Even if the magic based hero run out of mana, he still can rely on direct attacks.
I think that might based factions need to be upgraded with stamina in order to make them more powerful, no to make them weaker.
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The man who knows his fate, knows no fear.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2008 01:48 AM |
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I like the idea. if they can learn a few combat technics it will be good.
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Isabel
Known Hero
Dragonblessed
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posted October 07, 2008 03:14 AM |
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Definitely a good idea, and I agree that the plain attacks of heroes don't make sense currently.
Say: Barbarian deals Hero_Level*30(1+Atk*0.05) damage while Wizard deals Hero_Level*15(1+Atk*0.05) damage, so wizard normally do 50% less damage than barbarian. Is this what you are thinking?
This really opens up a lot more game options. New artifacts that increases damage (like Emerald Slippers)? Creatures that enhance hero's attack (instead of spellpower)? New skills (more stamina and stunning)? New 'melee spells' (Double Attack, impale, sever... all the RPG thingy)...
Very good idea I think it is.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 07, 2008 08:40 AM |
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Quote:
I think Stamina as an evolution of the Hero would make him more human, more realistic. However, talking about the game, I think that it would make bigger the disadvantage of the might based heroes in front of the magic based heroes.
We have to consider that a might based hero has a very low mana capacity. What happens if a might based hero run out of mana? Well, he has to depend on his sword. At his point, the magic based hero has a nice stock of fresh mana.
Even if the magic based hero run out of mana, he still can rely on direct attacks.
I think that might based factions need to be upgraded with stamina in order to make them more powerful, no to make them weaker.
Well, your post underscores one of my points very well: Even when considering Might heroes, by default you consider casting spells - and their mana reservoir - as their main attribute! Direct attacks is only something you succumb to, when you're out of mana - or have no more useful spells to cast.
This is what I want to move away from. I want to make direct attacks a more viable option for the might Hero - not just a secondary solution. And yes, Might heroes will run out of Mana before the Magic one does - but the Magic heroes will in contrary run out of Stamina before the might ones does when doing direct attack. So there is a balance - if you choose to specialise in Might, you miss out on Magic, and vice versa. As it is now, if you choose to specialize in Magic, you still get pretty much the same options as the Might hero does in terms of direct attack.
Quote:
Definitely a good idea, and I agree that the plain attacks of heroes don't make sense currently.
Say: Barbarian deals Hero_Level*30(1+Atk*0.05) damage while Wizard deals Hero_Level*15(1+Atk*0.05) damage, so wizard normally do 50% less damage than barbarian. Is this what you are thinking?
This really opens up a lot more game options. New artifacts that increases damage (like Emerald Slippers)? Creatures that enhance hero's attack (instead of spellpower)? New skills (more stamina and stunning)? New 'melee spells' (Double Attack, impale, sever... all the RPG thingy)...
Very good idea I think it is.
Yes, these are exactly some of the things I had in mind. I'm not sure I want Barbarian to have higher native damage than Wizard - after all, Wizard doesn't have higher native growth in spells than Barbarian [except for the fact that Barbarian can't use spells, duh, but from the other Might classes] so this should simply be an inherent property of his Attack growth I think. With this, I mean that maybe direct attack damage (DAD) should simply be something like: DAD = 10 x Attack for basic attack.
What I'd really like to see is a lot of ways to refine your attacks. There are two ways this could be implemented, either by one of them or the two together. One would be through skills - we could have a Combat skill, that increases the frequency with which you attack - just like Sorcery. I want to divide Enlightenment into two skills, so that one (Enlightenment) provide you only bonuses to Spellpower and Knowledge (as well as Mana reservoir and general spell benefits through perks), whereas the other (Vigour?) provides bonuses to Attack and Defence (as well as Stamina reservoir and general attack benefits through perks).
And then we could take it to the next level - we could add skills like Swordplay, which enhances your melee attack - increases damage, and has perks that adds advanced effects like Assult, Double Attack, Sever, Crippling Wound, Bleeding Wound, Arc Attacks, Whirlwind Attack, even imbue with spells (think current Weakening Strike, for instance); or maybe even new combat abilities like Mark Of The Damned, Retaliation Strike, etc. We could add an Archery skill, which provides the Hero with Ranged attack, and add effects like Scatter Shot, Explosive Arrows, Warding Arrows, Piercing Arrows - only the fantasy makes the limit, really.
Of course, this would provide a dilemma because we may end up having too many skills. I haven't really found any perfect solution to this question yet, but one could think along the lines of grouping the skills somehow, either Heroes 4 style (which I think was a bit too strict) or in a looser way, like separating skills into Hero related skills, which focuses only on what the Hero can do by himself (Combat, Archery, War Machines, Sorcery - and magic schools?), and Army relater skills, which focuses on skills that boosts his army (Leadership, Luck, Magic Schools?) - either way, I haven't found a good way of grouping skills, so maybe that's a bad idea.
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What will happen now?
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