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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: The final stages of H5 ToTE skill system evolution
Thread: The final stages of H5 ToTE skill system evolution
Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted October 15, 2008 07:09 PM
Edited by Nebdar at 11:26, 04 Feb 2009.

The final stages of H5 ToTE skill system evolution

The evolution of the skill system form first HOMM V edtion to ToE 3.1 goes from unique skill system with unique abilities(such as like was the Ignite in HoF, chilling Cold Steel, Fiery Wrath) for every faction hero, to better IMO one where skills and abilities are divided into universal so shared almost by every faction and those skill that are tied to racial abilities of heroes.

If I had to chose which solution, course of changes and evolution of skill system is the best, the more uniqe one or more universal I would choose on more universal one.

The more skills you can choose form the more different and unpredictable strategies you can think of, the more amusing and fun the game will be for a longer time. IMO there is nothing worse than after some time of playing you know which skill system is the best with each faction and only play this one the game becomes boring very quickly.

So to fully increase the number of possible strategies we can continue and finish the evolution of skill system because there are some skills/abilities that not all factions have and IMO should have and of course some new skills from barbarian should be given to the rest of faction (like moving the Runmages special abilities ones from HoF so in  ToTE almost every faction can use now)

Here is an list of what skills/abilities which faction heroes are missing:



Teleport Assualt - Knight, Necromancer, Ranger

Where should be located and with what perequisites:

Same as the rest: Logistics => Teleport Assualt <= Pathfinder
Quote:

For Knight      : Logistics => Teleport Assualt <= Pathfinder

For Ranger      : Logistics => Teleport Assualt <= Silent Stalker + Scouting

For Necromancer : Logistics => Teleport Assualt <= Pathfinder



What will give new to:

Knight     - the possibility to teleport Vindicators/Conscripts/Enforcers/Zealots(with purge if you don't have cleansing) next to the enemys archers to attack them and block them. Or just transport some far away the Paladines/Champions so they can attack with full power of their jousting bonus. Even transporting Marksmen to location where he can fully use its Precise Shot

Necromancer - teleporting Spectres to drain mana of some spellcasters, blocking archers. Rot Zombies Weakenig aura can now be more usefull. Or just moving Wraiths over the enemy lines or Liches to location where the can use their ranged attack.

Ranger     - Woow here can be realy too powerful. War Dancer or Ancient Treant Suprise Assualt. no to mention Sprites or Dryads.



Aura of Swiftness - Knight, Runemage, Necromancer

Where should be located and with what perequisites:

For Knight      : Leadership => Aura of Swiftness <= Divine Guidance Recruitment

Divine Guidance changed prerequisites to diplomacy Alcibiades Idea

For Runemage    : Leadership => Aura of Swiftness <= Runic Attunement or Recruitent

For Necromancer : Attack Leadership    => Aura of Swiftness <= Power of Speed Empathy


What will give new to:

Knight     - combined with Familiar Ground, think of the jousting bonus + klaus bonus but +1 speed is always good especially for Squires/Vindicators or even Peasants Upgrades.

Runemage   - like rune of charge is not enough. What to say more +1speed is always good.

Necromancer - For the first time ever the Necro Upg Dragons could reach enemys in first round. Faster Vampires or Ghosts even Zombies can be then more usefull at blocking or Weakenig the enemy, stealing retaliation.



Warlocks Luck - Knight, Necromancer.

Where should be located and with what perequisites:

Same as the rest: Luck => Warlocks Luck <= Soldiers Luck + Arcane Brilliance


What will give new to:

Knight       - Combination of Warlocks Luck with Master of Fire and Ignite where damage doesn't matter but the most important is the -50% Defence reduction which against Mighty heroes army can be devastating

Necromancer - I wondered myself why Necromancer doesn't have this skill like his former brothers wizards. This skill with Necromancers high Spellpower can be very good weapon against the warlocks or just another different strategy on not so big maps. Let's not forget about Mark of Necromancer which can grant unending mana supplies



Retribution - Demon Lord

Where should be located and with what perequisites:

For Demon Lord: Attack => Retribution <= Aura of Swiftness + Battle Frenzy + Searing Fires                


What will give new to:


Demon Lord   - Strange that they don't have it by now It looks like Inferno needs this skill, because if it doesn't kill the enemy quickly enough it is game over  soon for Demon Lord. So this boost to attack is essenstiall.



Twilight - Demon Lord, Ranger, Wizard, Runemage

Where should be located and with what perequisites:

For Demon Lord : Light Magic => Twilight <= Weakening Strike

For Ranger     : Light Magic => Twilight <= Master of Blessings + Master of Curses

For Wizard     : Light Magic => Twilight <= Suppress Light + Seal of Darkness

For Runemage   : Light Magic => Twilight <= Master of Blessings + Master of Curses


What will give new to:

Demon Lord   - More needed spellpower so to cast more effectively mainly dark magic.

Ranger       - Same as for the Demon Lord when the High Druids are dead, some extra spellpower and right spell can save the day

Wizard       - if someone concetrates on Dark/Light Magic schools it would be an nice skill(Remeber the perequisites can be discussed)



Dead's Man Curse - Ranger

Where should be located and with what perequisites:

Same as the rest: Luck => Dead's Man Curse <= Soldiers Luck


What will give new to:

Ranger       - I remember they had this skill and now it is gone why. -1 Luck is not much but as always can be helfull



Weakening Strike - Ranger, Necromancer, Runemage, Warlock, Wizard

Where should be located and with what perequisites:

For Necromancer : Dark Magic => Weakening Strike <= Master of Curses + MoTN

For for the rest of factions : Dark Magic => Weakening Strike <= Master of Curses + Master of Pain


What will give new to:

All facions - Suffering spell will reduce the attack by -9 / -12 and so also reduces damage to your troops on attacks and retaliations. It is good ability when you run out of mana or spells and the only thing you can do is perform an melee/ranged attack.



Stunning Blow - For all

Where should be located and with what perequisites:

For Demon Lord  : Attack => Stunning Blow <= Battle Freanzy + Mark of the Damned

For Knight      : Attack => Stunning Blow <= Battle Freanzy + Retaliation Stirke

For Necromancer : Attack => Stunning Blow <= Battle Freanzy + Mark of the Necromancer

For Ranger      : Attack => Stunning Blow <= Battle Freanzy + Imbue Arrow

For Runemage    : Attack => Stunning Blow <= Battle Freanzy + Greater Rune

For Warlock     : Attack => Stunning Blow <= Battle Freanzy + Empowered Spells

For Wizard      : Attack => Stunning Blow <= Battle Freanzy + Mark of the Wizard


What will give new to:

Demon Lord   - In my opinion this ability should replace Flaming Arrows as an prerequisites for Urgash's Call and it wonderfully fits to the Mark of the Dammned ability.

Knight       - The Knight because it often hasn't got enough mana or good spells to cast them till the end of long battles will love to have such an ability. 0.1 is not so much but the real power of it depends on Initative  of the creature if its above 15 than it is -2 Init. Maybe even Retaliation Strike would be much more usefull then.

Necromancer - Nothing speciall here, because when the Necro will run of mana MotN and next turn will be gatheredd some for a spell.

Ranger       - Here all this phrase lovers can say loud and clear Total Imbalanced. Yep an imbued Arrow + Icebolt or Wasp Swarm + and this ability, it will almost work like fear ability but also it will deal damage. But prerequisites can be changed so it will be hard to get it.

Runemage     - Mana isn't a problem here and Runemage can always can use it's turn for Refresh Rune, so i don't see anything special here maybe somebody will find a use for it and pick it, maybe for creeping.

Warlock     - Same as for Runemage, but it can be good for an early game creeping against melee slow walkers

Wizard       - Probably useless same as Power of Speed(but it is there waiting to be chosen), maybe in very very early game.



Ok that is all what i can think of at this moment.

Is implementing those skills/abilities to other factions skill system will imbalance something? I think in many cases not because when you pick one skill you natuarly can't pick other. You gain some and lose some.

What do you think about this

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PsyrenJ
PsyrenJ


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Need 180 HP S.Mistress 4 Hire?
posted October 15, 2008 08:00 PM

Alota the outstanding skills are outstanding for a reason... balance.

Marksman with teleport assault
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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted October 16, 2008 01:01 PM

Quote:
Alota the outstanding skills are outstanding for a reason... balance.


@PsyrenJ you didn't read all have you

So you say Nival work = balanced game

My propostions are unbalanced in the same way like well palced Fernzy or Puppet Master spell on unprepared opponent

Yep giving all factions in ToTE access to Empathy, SwiftMind, Ignite and so on have an reason = balance:

Look at this:





Balanced isn't He

But lets get to the point giving more skills to skill system isn't bad thing quite the opposite it is a good thing, because taking one skill/ability may do that you can't take another those so you can't pick all the best skill in the game but only a combination of those. And this changing is one of not so many good things that Nival puted in ToTE.

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted October 16, 2008 01:18 PM

Well on one thing I agree that giving more skills to all factions provides more strategies - but I would have liked even more if there were a lot more skills and they would have been unique to factions; unfortunately there aren't that many skills in TotE.

I'm not sure about the balance but your idea is pretty interesting.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 16, 2008 01:32 PM

Except you will almost never see such a hero in a multiplayer match. Sorry I delayed to check this, I had a few things on my mind these days.

Teleport Assault for night or ranger are outright scary. For the necromancer it might make more sense given his magical nature but undead are not supposed to reach the opponent fast. It's part of how they are played, slow but tough. Or what would happen when used with a vampiric phoenix..

Aura of Swiftness for necromancer I could understand, the others never. Fortress is already too strong and haven...lol. Used to have it in the HoF days but was removed on purpose. Heck with vindicators and champions joining their ranks it's hardly surprising.



Warlocks Luck for a knight would be totally useless, the kind of thing you pick once just to try and never do it again. I suppose it could have merit for the necromancer, it's just that it's not in their theme.

Retribution for Demon Lord is unrealistic at best. Here's what I wrote at celestial heavens:
Quote:
It's the kind of thing that ends a battle before it even begins considering inferno's superior initiative and already good damage.

Just think firehounds and stallions, maybe devils hitting with retribution and luck in the first round. Brutal.

Twilight for demonlord would be nice, the others already have a decent to good spellpower. On sylvan with high druids it would be overpowering. But who cares, nobody picks two magic schools unless they use a magic faction.


Dead's Man Curse on Ranger is nasty, we need to decrease their power not the opposite..


Weakening Strike[ for Necromancer or Warlock makes little sense. None of these classes use melee attacks, have a boost like deadeye shot or even have a way to use it without wasting a whole turn.


Stunning Blow could work with knight or demonlord but frankly I like it as it is. If you check the skillwheel you'll see that it's not a reasonable pick when you can get power of speed or retribution with tactics respectively.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Basically I believe that unless some perks are ABSOLUTELY essential they mess up the skillwheel for no reason and are more of an obstacle than help. Like when a demonlord gets pathfinding which opens warpath, snatch, death march AND teleport assault if you got swift gating. That's hardly practical.
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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted October 16, 2008 06:32 PM
Edited by Nebdar at 12:33, 20 Oct 2008.

So you like strictly practical skills way and i liked add all mix it and see what will turn out of this way, just for fun or to experiment new skill pack.

Elvin if you are interested in practical mod i can do it for you.
Teleport Assault for Necro
Aura of Swiftness for Necro
Warlocks Luck for Necro(again)
Twilight for Demon Lord
Weakening Stike for Ranger, Runemage, Wizard
Stunning Blow for ??


I was also thinking about Fallen Knight for Ranger Runemage

And of course i will do another my way and add all(mod) but.... i need little help at balancing the prerequisites, where the new ability skill gives to much it must have bigger requierments.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 17, 2008 10:58 AM

Actaully, I don't quite agree with you on all this Elvin, although maybe my motivation is a bit different from yours. I don't think it would be that much of a problem to include some of these abilities, if you construct the skillwheel in the correct way. Let me give a couple of examples.

Aura Of Speed might be frightening for a Knight. However, if the skill wheel was made in this way:

LEADERSHIP
Recruitement > Aura Of Speed
Estates
Diplomacy > Divine Guidance > Empathy

It would mean that you had to choose either Aura Of Speed or Divine Guidance + Empathy. Considering that you can also get Tactics (and you can even get Tactics AND Retribution!) plus those boots that increase your speed by 1, I don't see it as that overpowered - personally, I still think I would take Divine Guidance + Empathy over it!

Teleport Assault for Knight might be scary, yes. Someone mentions Marksman abuse, but seriously, who even takes Marksmen these days anyway, and even if you DID teleport them to the front row for that one deadly shot, how long do you think they would survive after that?

I think that for almost all factions, there are already some pretty crazy skill combinations. I think most of these could be added without making too much damage, as long as you make sure that picking the very powerful skills would mean you had to give up on another very good option. Putting Teleport Assault for ranger after Death March would mean he had to give up on Swift Mind, Silent Stalker, War Path and Snatch - is Teleport Assult so much better than these?

And as for the useless skills - well, if you don't like them, don't pick them. It doesn't cost you anything that they're there.

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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted October 20, 2008 12:15 AM
Edited by Nebdar at 00:16, 20 Oct 2008.

Thanks Alcibiades for reply

Some chages made, follow the blue paint.

How to change Stunning Blow prerequisites for Ranger so this would be much harder choice but still usefull
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 20, 2008 06:57 AM

Quote:
How to change Stunning Blow prerequisites for Ranger so this would be much harder choice but still usefull


I'd say Attack > Battle Frenzy - Nature's Wrath - Stunning Blow.

Means you have to give up on Power Of Speed and Archery, both of which can be very useful for Sylvan [unles you have Master Of Wrath for either Storm Wind or Nature's Luck].

Wonder if Rain Of Arrows + Stunning Blow works.

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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted October 20, 2008 10:02 AM
Edited by Nebdar at 10:07, 20 Oct 2008.

Quote:
Wonder if Rain Of Arrows + Stunning Blow works.


I fear that it will so

Maybe this : Attack => Stunning Blow <= Nature's Wrath + Know Your Enemy + Imbued Arrow

ok i am starting the work at this one, so expect mod soon.

If anyone has other ideas or comments i will be glad to read them
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 20, 2008 11:07 AM

Stunning blow + rain of arrows + wasp swarm has gotta be fun then
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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted October 20, 2008 11:52 AM
Edited by Nebdar at 01:26, 21 Oct 2008.

The Ranger Cripple Arrow Stun MultiShot Combo

I am still wondering how to make prerequisites better...


Quote:
Dead's Man Curse on Ranger is nasty


-1 Luck is nasty how


Sad news for NecroFans the Aura of Swiftnes can not be putted on Attack skill, so it must stay in Leadership or for all factions it must be moved to Attack skill.

It could be in  Necro Leadership skill like this

Diplomacy => Empathy => Aura of Swiftnes

The Emapthy will have only one prerequiste Diplomacy and only one use when summoning Phoenix it recives a bonus to its morale equall to morale of Necromancer. Phoenix is rather fast unit so there is an chance that it will trigger 2-3 times if not killed at sight. I also mentioned in Show us your skillwheel thread That Minotaurs with their bravery could also contribute to this ability.

It seems that we can only change the prerequisites of skills only
We can't give new skills to factions skill system if they weren't there already

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 21, 2008 08:19 AM

Quote:
It seems that we can only change the prerequisites of skills only
We can't give new skills to factions skill system if they weren't there already


It should not be a problem to add abilities to factions, even if they don't normally have them - have you edited the skill.xdb file in the right way by inserting new class tags after the ability with correct prerequisites? Remember than internal skill and ability names are not the same as in game.
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What will happen now?

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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted October 21, 2008 09:13 AM
Edited by Nebdar at 01:28, 22 Oct 2008.

Ok the problem was because of my mistake somewhere i forgot to put two times <Item>

I had checked all and it works now

It is ready here for download.


It seems that Rangers Warlock Luck doesn't work with Imubed Arrow/Multi Shoot or Stunning Blow so giving it to them isn't so bad after all
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