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| Thread: ToH Arena Map - imbalances and fixes |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted October 16, 2008 09:08 AM |
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ToH Arena Map - imbalances and fixes
ToH Arena Tournament has come to an end ... and it was real fun to play, I think most players enjoyed it alot !
I think now it's time to draw a line in the sand, and try to improve it even more for the future 
Personally I find 4 major things to be game breaking:
1. Lack of Cleansing, for Sylvan(maybe inferno also) against Dark Casters with Puppet(especially Necro)
2. Word of Light especially against Inferno... there's simply no way to escape without the ring. Also Curse of the Netherworlds can prove itself to be too much sometimes
3. Armageddon, if opponent doesnt have shield or fire resistance... and sometimes even with those
4. Last Stand + Ressurection Rune
Also there are some minor issues with some heroes :
1. Haggash
2. Ingvar
maybe others... but these two are the most important 
In the end, I invite all of you to make suggestions about other imbalances and possible solutions.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 16, 2008 12:48 PM |
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I remember your post in the toh mod, rune of resurrection is far from balanced atm  If you could incorporate a mod in the arena that fixes it much like fiur changed ring of speed into weapon slot it would be nice. Word of light depends, I'm more concerned about it used with high druids' boost.. Sylvan can already weaken you enough in the initial charge.
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diegis
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted October 16, 2008 01:21 PM |
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yes, Tower, the staff and 20% init ring should be somehow fixed. Like, on genesis, fiur set them in the same spot, for not being able to equip them both.
Btw Tower, I'd love to have a full game mate -whenever you got time-
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
www.cabinet-dentaire-malaunay.fr
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted October 17, 2008 04:43 PM |
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Ring and Staff are fixed already ... simply by being removed from the map completely ...
About full games , I don't play those any more ... only Arena, as I find it just as good full games , just not that time killer.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 17, 2008 05:11 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 17:11, 17 Oct 2008.
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Quote:
I remember your post in the toh mod, rune of resurrection is far from balanced atm If you could incorporate a mod in the arena that fixes it much like fiur changed ring of speed into weapon slot it would be nice.
Only the amount of resurrected troops can be modded (which is 40% now)
And of course, the cost.
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted October 18, 2008 08:21 PM |
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I noticed ring, staff and unicorn bow are banned.
But in arena though ,it seems there's some priceless arties that can make the game outcome pretty obvious.
1. Necklace of bloody claw (In the hands of necro,dwarfs especially)
2. Ring of Vitality (Fight ingvar who wears this with rune of rez and cry  )
But this version of arena has been refined so many times since the first version, i wonder if it is still being updated ?
Maybe zilo can post the latest version ?
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Zilonite
Famous Hero
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posted October 18, 2008 09:12 PM |
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As for recent version - authors of the map just posted it in Herous League site.
Only few changes there:
- DV is available on the map (guess, only important change);
- Academy has 10 gargs more and Fortress 2 priests;
- added Treeborn Quiver to arts.
Link to dowload russian version
I dîdn't do any english translation as long as may be ToH wanna have its own special version of arena?
Myown thoughts on balance - there is just one golden rule: ban as few things as possible
Not sure, though, how map will look like with DV on (were some doubts from HL veterans as well), yet all other things that are present on the map now are within the margins of acceptable.
Btw, till Okt 21st HL has open registration for their next arena tourney:
http://forum.heroesleague.ru/viewtopic.php?t=19044
Although, russian/english language issues might be a problem, may be somebody from ToH wanna try it out...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 18, 2008 09:45 PM |
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I'm pretty curious about DV. Reason I'd be hesitant to add it is the high druids with possible rain of arrows and motw but I haven't tried it much since 3.1. In ubi duels it seems fine but armies are smaller there.
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted October 19, 2008 01:12 AM |
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IMO THE major thing to be game breaking is...the random faction. I think the 3 best factions on this map are Academy, Necropolis and Sylve.
And there are few cases where the game is not really balanced.
I suggest in the next tourney to have a joker to restart a game (day 1).
Btw it would be nice to know all the "special bonus" that each factions can gain, as the bonus for Necro creatures for exemple (I didn't know it!).
And I don't really like the Spell shop for only few factions. The others should have something too.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 19, 2008 01:36 AM |
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If the balance is in random factions then we should obviously work on the faction balance than implement such a rule. Unfortunately I cannot comment much or make suggestions as I've only played a few games there.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted October 19, 2008 10:23 AM |
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Weird and interesting point of view from Zenithale
From my experience Haven, Fortress, Stronghold (and somewhat Sylvan, nerfed in 3.1 unfortunatelly ) are the dominant towns. I find Haven to be the absolute best, with a little weakness in Inferno(but with the right strategy, can overcome even than). Very close nearby comes Fortress, which can defeat anything with the crazy combo Last Stand + Ressurection Rune. Also orcs are very evil if they can guess the right magic to shatter
Other towns are very dependant on spells and opponent.
Anyway my suggestions are :
1. Cleansing spell @ 2500 gold for inferno and sylvan (or maybe for all towns) . I dunno how it's done in editor I guess Quest Hut or something...
2. Word of Light Ring @ double price(i think 14k gold) for inferno, same tehnique as the Cleansing spell ... I think this is a very good solution, as if you choose to buy the ring, you will have to give up some troops or some levels, and your opponent might not even have the spell 
For other imbalances I am still trying to figure out solutions
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Typhys
Adventuring Hero
poisonous eye
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posted October 19, 2008 01:33 PM |
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I disagree for the Cleansing spell, especially with Inferno ; it is possible to skill war machines + first aid tent to remove curses.
I think the interest of the arena is the probability to see some stuff or not. I already found that + 3 knowledge spot for Academy rather absurd. Necromancer have the same kind of stuff, but that depends of their mastery of Necromancy. But my problem with Academy is that spot is totaly free, no matter your perks.
Also, the only faction to have spells shop is Dungeon, but I find it rather normal 'cause they heavily depends of their hero. And I dunno what could be given to other factions actually... maybe an altar of level 3 spell for haven, even though randomness would nerf that possibility a lot.
But removing that spells shop wouldn't be a good idea imo.
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted October 19, 2008 09:17 PM |
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First Aid Tent only removes basic curses... which are not that big deal anyway. Puppet Master, Frenzy and blind are the biggest problems of Inferno, and those cannot be solved by tent.
PS: By the way , we'll need an experienced map maker to do the dirty bussiness for us, so whomever is interested in the project and qualifies, please stand up
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted October 22, 2008 11:32 AM |
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1. The list of "powerhouse" races is very arbitrary and I don't share opinion of its content. IMO, there are archenemies for all of them meaning that even though several pairs are strongly in favor of one, the general situation is mutually exclusive when examining all 8 factions.
2. Many of suggestions here are based on good intentions yet their efforts contradict with the very concept of "random". E.g., if there would always be cleansing then there is little sense casting puppet before turn of light hero. In other words, I'm against corrupting the random element.
3. Ring of unrepentant... the idea is good but as there are not such countermeasure against COTN then it would be unbalancing. I don't concur to it.
4. Uberheroes. Indeed, Ingvar and Haggash are very good, but to ban them? No.
5. Changes into game mechanics (runes, miniarts) are more appropriate to the whole H5 modding. For me it's important that full online games have the same mechanics as arena. Unless these changes are absolute, I don't second these amendments.
6. Spell shop for dungeon. This issue and the eventual appearance of spell shop has been vastly discussed in HeroesLeague. IMO, the solution is very good and has been reached after elaborate juxtaposing of pros and cons.
7. Race specials. All of them can be effectively utilized now. The reason behind +3 to knowledge for academy is based on extensive testing and discussion.
On final note, even if this arena map is some 10th version of its polishing for 1.5 years, there are still possible improvements. However, I believe that all major ones have been already incorporated.
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted October 24, 2008 02:29 PM |
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So there are some important issues that need to be discussed:
1. Altering the random element
2. Balance
I must say I agree that random element is a very important part of the game, cause it generates a lot of creativity from the players.
On the other hand, losing games because of imbalances generated by random is not okei. That's where the balance element steps in, and takes over. Anyway there are some alterations of the random element already with the +3 knowledge building, the necromancy generator and so on...
Cleansing argument:
Maybe we can make a compromise in order not to alter the random element too much, and make a list of 2-3-4 low level spells, from which you randomize one for 2500 gold(and maybe you can do that several times?!), maybe even make the spells town based(like for necro offer selection of 2-3-4 low level dark and summoning spells)
Word of Light Ring :
Yeah, there is no counterpart for CotN, but since the ring would be available only to Inferno (for a high price !!!), there isn't a real issue, because Inferno's CotN is low damage anyway ... So the balancing actually happens.
Boosts already on map
I must say I find them pretty well thought, maybe dungeon's spell shop is a bit too much, as it makes them almost unbeatable for orcs, as they cannot possibly know what magic to shatter.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 24, 2008 02:38 PM |
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There's a solution for that. You can add a script to remove mercury from dungeon if you think that dark magic introduces an imbalance there. Or crystal as well if we consider the possibility of divine vengeance imbalancing, however both skills are at 2% and you still need to get the right spells from arcane library.
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted October 30, 2008 09:48 AM |
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Spell Shop issue update:
Dungeon is an okei town anyway, so giving them a spell shop makes them even stronger, so the question is: does Dungeon really need it ?
My oppinion is that they don't... because :
1. They rely on Destructive magic in most match-ups, and that is enough for them, most of the time. They have Summoning as a good alternative , and they can get mass haste, mass endurance as extra from might skills
2. They have 2 artifact merchants , so a book might pop more often
3. From recent experience, shattering Dungeon as orcs is like playing the roulette, thanks to the spell shop(I shattered Destructive + Dark, my opponent got Summoning + Light)
4. Other magic towns like Necropolis or Academy don't get the same treatment
5. Dungeon has a very strong line-up
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 30, 2008 10:20 AM |
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I'd say they depend on it it, sometimes no meteor means a lot of trouble but it's not just that. There are so many elemental artifacts, imagine getting them but not the right spells. And what if they get only ice spells but the opponent found an ice protection artifact. Likewise summoning can give you fist, wasp, earthquake(not sure if it's banned), elementals and armor - I personally wouldn't pick summoning then. If you don't want them to get light/dark just remove crystal/mercury.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted October 30, 2008 11:04 AM |
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Quote:
1. They rely on Destructive magic in most match-ups, and that is enough for them, most of the time. They have Summoning as a good alternative , and they can get mass haste, mass endurance as extra from might skills
Actually they rely on surprising the opponent. I played arena as orc vs dungeon, i got enlightenment so very good might stats, plus shatter destruction. The opponent got Yrbeth and took only dark as magic school. Evidently, i lost. It's a risk you have to take even when playing normal games too.
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted October 30, 2008 11:34 AM |
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Elvin's solution of removing the resources is just as good as removing the spell shop. I really don't mind Dungeon having good Destructive/ Summoning spells... But for them to have all 4 schools of magic options, especially since they use only destructive in 80% of the games against other towns except orcs, that is just outrageous ! We already have a natural anti-orc town called Inferno.
Samiekl every town would like the opportunity to rely on diversity... so why don't we give a spell shop to Sylvan also, so they can aim for multi arrow Frenzy, or why don't we give free tome of light to inferno, i'm sure they would love the extra diversity offered ?
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