|
| Thread: Unique resources, upkeep, researching | |
|
Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
|
posted October 29, 2008 01:44 PM |
|
Edited by Snatch at 15:09, 29 Oct 2008.
|
Unique resources, upkeep, researching
And here is another concept by me. Reading the Resources-Thread inspired me to create a more specific proposal to this issue. But because it's just an early draft and very swift proposal it's not as worked out as my other concepts (e.g. no creature trees, history and descriptions yet). However I'll explain the basic mechanics and add some examples.
Upkeep
The essential thing will be upkeep. I know from former proposals in german Drachenwald forum that many fans seem to be not very fond of upkeep. But Heroes Community seems to be more open-minded about that. To introduce upkeep just to have upkeep is rather pointless I think, so I will couple it with ...
Research
The same town buildings which produce the upkeep will conduct research too.
How does it work?
1. There is population (produces gold, daily growth, restricted by town level, some units will need citizens) as in my other concept.
2. Every faction has three cheap and numerous base units (e.g. mechanic, trickster and rascal for gnomes). All base units are able to produce and/or to research if allocated to the specific building.
3. All factions will have a town building in which groups of base units produce commodities (e.g. rascals in a hide-out). Commodities represent food and other goods (clothes, weapons, sewing kits, ammunition,...) needed as upkeep for almost all living units and therefore for the main part of the army.
4. All factions will have a town building in which groups of base units produce mana and conduct magical research (e.g. tricksters in an enchanted tree). Mana is used as upkeep for magical creatures (e.g. illusionary beasts) and required for the spellcasting of heroes. Research will provide new spells, magical creatures and magical upgrades. You can choose what will be researched.
5. All factions will have a town building in which groups of base units produce unique resources and conduct non magical research (e.g. mechanics creating spare parts in a workshop). Unique resources are used as upkeep for unique creatures (e.g. airship) and required for the racial ability of heroes. Research will provide unique racial abilities, unique creatures and unique upgrades. You can choose what will be researched.
6. For every town the player has to choose on whether follow the path of might (expanding the unique building) or the path of magic (expanding the magical building). Same goes for hero development. There are no restrictions for the generic building.
7. During a siege all units stationed in this three buildings at that time will fight as defenders.
8. Base units can be allocated to map buildings called outposts (for unique resources), magical power-knots (for mana) and farms (for commodities) too. There they will produce more than they would in a town but are more vulnerable to enemy attacks.
Unique resources
Some examples.
Spare parts -> mechanical creatures based on clockworks
Coal -> mechanical creatures based on steam engines
Wood -> siege machines
Mercury -> mutations (manticore, chimera,...)
Blood -> damned creatures (vampire, werewolf,...)
Electricity -> lightning cannon, Frankenstein monster,...
Larva/Maggot -> insectoid creatures
Sulphur -> demons (if substantial, in a more mystic concept mana can be used as upkeep for demons instead)
Crystal -> crystalline creatures
Raw meat -> beasts
...
Other resources
For upkeep: Commodities
For buildings and hiring: Gold, Wood, Stone, Metal, Gems, Glass, Slate
Unique creatures may need unique resources for hiring also. Same for magical creatures and mana.
Alternatives
a) Maybe introducing commodities is an unneeded detour because I said myself in the resources thread: I think that gold stood not only for coins but for all sorts of simple goods like food, clothes, ... all along. The thought behind the commodities is that for their prodution you need to station citizens in your generic building which leads to decreased gold income for some days (till the population recovers). But if we use gold instead of commodities we have to made some minor changes. The civilian base unit will be equal to the population and is no individual creature anymore. It can be stationed in gold mines now aswell. The population restriction is annihilated so that enough gold for all upkeep can be produced. If in this case the population would stay restricted we only could afford a restricted amount of army. But I think the enormous, ever-growing armies are a main point of the HoMM series. Even if restrictions would be logical I don't really appreciate them.
b) Stationing is restricted, see a) the last three sentences.
c) No upkeep. No commodities. No stationed base units. Production of mana and unique resources and researching are linear and depend on flagged map buildings and upgrade level of town buildings. Complexity is lowered aswell as the strategic approach.
d) Every resource producing map building needs some units to start production. Number of stationed workers in map objects is restricted.
e) Path of might and path of magic can be followed both fully in towns. Only heroes have to specialize. So there are needed at least two heroes to make the most out of what you get.
f) Generic research may be possible and grant bonuses aswell. Then the player has to choose between might path, magic path and generic path in each town. If commodities are not used (see a) ) this would be a way to preserve the use of the generic (formerly commodities producing) town building.
g) Same as a) but we abolish gold instead. Population produces commodities. Gold will become a rare resource such as gems, metal, wood, stone, glas and slate.
h) Any other alteration you can think of.
|
|
GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 29, 2008 08:19 PM |
|
|
1. What is the purpose of the upkeep idea?
2. When you mention "research", a whole new idea appears in my mind, another place it can be taken to: Each faction has research subjects, and finishing a research allows the heroes to learn more advanced racial ability and perhaps some primary skills. For example, Sylvan can have research of "Magical Flaming", and then its heroes will be able to learn the racial ability "Fire Arrow", while researching "Elven Codes of Honour" gives you mainly knowledge.
3. Unique resources sounds to me like a nice idea. Perhaps it would be better for the building that produces the creatures, it will be hard to find the required resources over and over every week to get certain creatures.
|
|
Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
|
|
posted October 29, 2008 08:24 PM |
|
Edited by Adrius at 20:27, 29 Oct 2008.
|
Hmm... the research thingy is what I like most, strange really... why haven't this idea popped up until now? I mean, almost every RTS out there has researches!
I think research should primarily be focused on creatures and specializing their stats to fit your own style... but I can imagine enhancing the hero's skills too.
EDIT: I've actually had many of these ideas in former factions of mine 
My Swamp faction had a colonization skill that made mines work harder if there were units stationed there, and my Spiritualist faction had a unique resource too, Spirit Energy 
____________
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 29, 2008 08:35 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Hmm... the research thingy is what I like most, strange really... why haven't this idea popped up until now? I mean, almost every RTS out there has researches!
This is a TBS game though, not a RTS one.
Personally I'm against the idea of either upkeep or research in HoMM, and while I've played games that have both, they play much slower than this.
|
|
Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
|
|
posted October 29, 2008 09:03 PM |
|
|
@ GenieLord:
1. Good question. More strategic depth I would say. You can hurt your enemy not only by defeating his army but by attacking his economy aswell. Even a happening like plague will have a stronger effect if you have no or just a poor storing.
2. Yes, so or very similar to it it was meant. 
3. Unique resources are indeed for the building that produces the creatures. As you can see gnomish mechanics produce spare parts which are needed for mechanical creatures which are researched by the mechanics aswell. So, all is the same building. And additionally unique resources can be produced in outposts too.
@ Adrius:
It hasn't popped up? That would be very strange. Maybe it has popped up but you have not noticed it? As you say this idea isn't very original. For HoMM it is but in not in general. At the moment researching is meant for both.
And yes, you are right. All this ideas aren't really new but I combined them to a hopefully interesting and unique concept or approach. But as I said it's just a rough draft. There is still room for improvement.
@ MattII:
Hm, but I think they have to be ways and means to implement those ideas without slowing down the gameplay to much. Isn't it at the end not just an issue of balancing?
But as I said in the alternatives section researching and unique resources are possible without upkeep aswell if implemented linear (as the resource system is now in HoMM). Another idea behind it all also is that you have weak creatures creating strong creatures (e.g. mechanics building airships) respectively researching them to be built regularly. Another strategic point where a precise enemy attack or random bad event can throw back your development. But maybe most of this ideas are too complex and too much micromanagement.
I would appreciate some alternative ideas to implement this things more easier too.
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted October 29, 2008 09:08 PM |
|
|
If upkeep happens, infinetiv recruiting needs to happen.
____________
|
|
Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
|
|
posted October 29, 2008 09:54 PM |
|
|
Additional comment to the concept
Oh, and another strategic thing is that you have to choose between putting creatures into researching (to get class with unique or magical units and upgrades) or to use this creatures for fighting and getting mines and ressources (to get mass of 'plain' units). But maybe this approach could be implemented more easily or in another and maybe better way too. Feel free to post your comments and ideas.
@ del_diablo:
Why? Can you explain your statement a bit more please.
|
|
sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
|
|
posted October 29, 2008 10:06 PM |
|
|
I really like the research and population-based powers, but the upkeep just seems to destroy a lot of the freedom HoMM offers compared to other games. The ability to build or recruit with no upkeep is a nice feature in the game, and I'd hate to see that be tosse aside to a more complicated, rather messy system. Maybe special creatures that are rare or summoned could be "upkept", but your system makes it sound like everything will have upkeep. Upkeep for special buildings or rare, exotic creatures could be regulated and balanced by upkeep, and maybe some of the base creatures, but having all the creatures and buildings run on a cost just makes the game seem dull and unattractive. Who wants to see on the cover of HoMM VI "A revolutionary new Upkeep system to limit gameplay!" ? Personally, I would just leave a slight upkeep to some, make it integral, but not important.
As for research, I think City Level should really be incorporated into it so its just not a number. I was wondering when I first started playing HoMM "Why is the city level important?" Sure, it tells you how big a city is but aside from that, nothing. So, have certain research done with the allocation system could be a great innovation. That makes the town more than just a military supply store.
Unique resources could work if and only if they are required for special or powerful creatures or artifacts(?). They need to be regulated and not needed for some powerful creatures, but per se add more to a creature if you spend it or a cost for its upgrade. Maybe by infusing a resource into a spell it has an amplified effect or something.
I think Might and Magic heroes should be bipartisan, being either a Might or Magic hero on hiring and not changing. Expanding this to a town just seems too unappealing. However, adding a third class of city "Hybrid" could possibly give the Might and Magic cities some plausibility. That could be good, i.e. Academy = Magic, Stronghold = Might, Inferno = Hybrid.
|
|
Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
|
|
posted October 29, 2008 10:58 PM |
|
Edited by Snatch at 07:11, 30 Oct 2008.
|
@ sith_of_ziost:
Yes, maybe having no upkeep is an essential part of HoMM. But you mentioned rare and summoned creatures. The phoenix spell of HoMM5 comes in my mind. Strong individual creatures or machineries, once summoned/build and staying/in function as long as you can afford. I think this would work with a linear resource system very well too and maybe better than with my open system. Buildings didn't have upkeep costs in my concept. So that's a new idea. But having no upkeep at all would simplify this concept too much I think. If you have no upkeep you don't need to let creatures produce those resources. Then you can just let them be produced linear as HoMM3 resource silos. You don't have to make the decision whether to let them produce resources or to let them fight. So if we reduce the upkeep system I think we could erase the commodities and let just mana and unique resources be upkeep for special units. Then you'll have again the decision of class or mass.
Putting creatures in research instead of fighting is the same class or mass decision. So if we abdicate all upkeep researching is a must to have this stratetic decision at all. If anyone has another idea for class-or-mass please tell!
Can you explain your ideas concerning the city level a bit more please? How should it exactly be incoporated?
To regulate unique resources a linear system seems to be the only way. Let creatures produce is an open system instead.
True might or true magic heroes/factions is heavily a matter of taste I think. Some people appreciate a strict separation while others enjoy the freedom to develop his hero/faction/race the way he wishes.
|
|
sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
|
|
posted October 30, 2008 12:40 AM |
|
|
|
I meant that certain research can only be started once the town is a certain level or it is amplified by a certain level of city. Like it gains extra bonuses. You could even extend it to be enhanced by a visting hero's skill in some skill. Like if a research project is boosting a hero's knowledge, a visiting Hero with Enlightenment can increase the bonus. Something like that, sort of like a Head Researcher being a Hero.
|
|
Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
|
|
posted October 31, 2008 01:48 AM |
|
|
Second addition: No upkeep
For all who don't like upkeep here are some alterations.
1. Generic Building will produce commodities depending on its level. Rascals can be trained.
2. Magical Building will produce mana and provide magical research depending on its level. Tricksters can be trained.
3. Unique Building will produce unique resources and provide unique research depending on its level. Mechanics can be trained.
4. Outposts, magical power knots and farms produce fixed amounts just as other mines.
5. Each weekly growth of rascals stationed in a city, mine or farm will increase its daily production of commodities or other resources by one (two in farms).
6. Each weekly growth of tricksters stationed in a city or magical power knot will increase its daily production of mana by one (two in knots). Each trickster stationed in a city will speed up magical research.
7. Each weekly growth of mechanics stationed in a city or outpost will increase its daily production of spare parts by one (two in outposts). Each mechanic stationed in a city will speed up unique research.
Another alternative: Infinite recruiting
del_diablo brought this into discussion. Maybe if every unit costs a specific amount of resources we can abandon growth rates. Population and available resources will restrict recruitment then.
|
| |
|
|
