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| Thread: Mana =/= Knowledge |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 17, 2008 07:44 AM |
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Mana =/= Knowledge
This is an idea that's been with me for a few months now, why not make mana a per-level gain (like certain special abilities) rather than an all-in-one-go as it is now? This would of course leave knowledge without a use, but I've thought about that one as well, make knowledge the number of spells in quick-recall memory ie, spells in quick recall memory cost less than normal, whereas those not in quick recall memory would cost somewhat more than normal (say 80% current cost and 240% current cost).
It would take two days to change a spell in quick recall memory, so that on day 1 nothing changes, on day two both spells cost the same (about twice quick recall cost, or 160% current cost), and on day 3 the changeover is complete.
I know it's not the most revolutionary idea around, but I thought it might make things interesting.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted November 17, 2008 11:55 AM |
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So your suggesting a classic stacking way?
Current+(Know/X*Y)=new knowlegde?
Or a spell stacking in someway? I am kind of confused on it.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 17, 2008 12:54 PM |
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I fail to see why? I know the current system might not be the most logical one in terms of words (since Knowledge would imply it was related to something you know), but it works very well in-game imo?
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What will happen now?
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diegis
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted November 17, 2008 12:58 PM |
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yes, better give us an example....step by step....like
1. hero 'A' have 1 knowledge this means 'x' points of mana....or not
2. hero learned spell 'a' and the cost of that spell is: 4 mana points.....
etc....
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
www.cabinet-dentaire-malaunay.fr
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 17, 2008 01:56 PM |
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Replace knowledge with wisdom and problem is solved I guess?
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted November 17, 2008 01:59 PM |
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The idea is pretty interesting, but maybe make your hero being able to use only a limited amount of spells based on Knowledge - the more Knowledge you have, the more spells you'll have available to choose from or something like that.
This 'choosing' happens before a battle or at the start of a day or something (of course, there should be an option 'keep the previous spells chosen', so as to not be annoying to choose every day/battle  )
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted November 17, 2008 02:17 PM |
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Quote:
This is an idea that's been with me for a few months now, why not make mana a per-level gain (like certain special abilities) rather than an all-in-one-go as it is now? This would of course leave knowledge without a use, but I've thought about that one as well, make knowledge the number of spells in quick-recall memory ie, spells in quick recall memory cost less than normal, whereas those not in quick recall memory would cost somewhat more than normal (say 80% current cost and 240% current cost).
So basiclay a spellbook nr2 where every spell costs alot less? I think i got it now.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted November 17, 2008 04:59 PM |
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I don't see why all of you people seem to be rather confused here?!
As far as I see it, the old main purpose of knowledge (determinating the maximum mana points) is taken away from knowledge and just the level determinates your hero's maximum mana.
Knowledge, instead, tells you how many spels you may have in your "quick recall" list. (I guess it would be marked liek the single spell schools in H3/4/5) All spells in this quick recall list cost much less mana.
Am I right so far, MattII?
Quote:
yes, better give us an example....step by step....like
I'm not the designer of this thread or idea, but I guess it would be something like this (Matt, correct me if I'm wrong and complain if you don't want me to interfere cause it's your idea! )
1. Hero A is level 3 and has a knowledge of 5.
2. This means he has 30 mana (just an example) and may have 5 spells in his wuick recall list. (or less spells? It wasn't clear yet)
3. In his spell book he has the spells U(5 current cost),V(8 cc), W(10 cc), X(12 cc), Y(20 cc) &Z(30 cc)
4. He now can choose which spells he picks for his quick recall list. Here should be noticed that he can only be able to spell some spells (Y&Z) if they ar ein his quick recall list.
5. For the example we choose to have spells U, W, X, X & Z in the quick spell list.
6. The effective spell costs are now: U-4, V-19, W-8, X-10, Y-16, Z-24
So the effect is rathe rclear, you specialize on some spells and can cast them MUCH more often than others.
Yet I must admit that, allthough I like the general idea, I fear it would be unbalanced. And I do not like the side-effect that caster-heroes and other heroes have the same mana points and, similar to Alc, I do not see the need for a reformation here in the casting system, cause it works (and is not untypical, comparing to other fantasy games (especially in the roleplaying sector), where also mana points are often linked to knowledge/wisdome/intelligence or similar attributes)
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 17, 2008 09:38 PM |
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Sorry, should have explained that a bit more. Mana is now determined merely by hero level (Wizards get 6-7 mana/level, Barbarians 1-2, the rest somewhere in between).
Knowledge is now used to determine the number of 'cheap' (quick recall) spells, so at level 8 a Wizard might have 3-4 such spells, while a Barbarian would only have 1-2.
It also suddenly occurs to me that the 80% normal cost for these quick recall spells is a bit harder to calculate for costing, so it's now normal cost for quick recall spells and 3*normal cost for the others. This balances out, given that at higher levels the mana/level system will provide more mana than the mana/knowledge system.
For example:
A Wizard of level 7 has 3 knowledge and 49 spell points. He has selected as his quick recall spells Haste, Endurance and Righteous Might. This means that these 3 spells all cost what they normally do, but Divine Strength, Regeneration and Deflect Missile now cost respectively 12/24/18.
This (I hope) makes it so that spellcasters have to a bit more careful about whom they're going against, and select the appropriate spells, rather than just go in automatically because they're powerful.
As an aside, Asheera got it pretty close, and Jiriki9 was bang on.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 17, 2008 09:50 PM |
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I still don't see the need for this change ... why is it better than the current system?
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What will happen now?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 17, 2008 10:17 PM |
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There probably isn't a 'need' for it, and more than there was 'need' to change spells from the elemental schools of H3, to the more-or-less effect schools we have now, but I thought it would provide a few more restrictions to spellcasters, since spellcasters also get Hero Direct Damage.
Maybe in opposition the Hero Direct Damage ought to be tweaked to give a bit more strength to the more Might style heroes.
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stankelbenet
Adventuring Hero
bringer of nostalgia & darknes
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posted November 18, 2008 04:32 PM |
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I think that knowledge still should determine the number of spell points.
The problem with knowledge is, that you don't want in the later levels when you got 100 spell points already.
Still i can't see the idea. Instead of gaining spell points you lower the costs. In the end it's the same: You can cast more spells
I think that the number of spells you can have in your spell book should be limited and then knowledge should determine the number of spells in it(some other people wrote this before). So if a hero has 3 knowledge, the hero's spell book can contain 3 or 6(if we use a factor of 2 in case of balance).
This would be good for the RPG-style of the game i think
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 18, 2008 04:51 PM |
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Quote:
There probably isn't a 'need' for it, and more than there was 'need' to change spells from the elemental schools of H3, to the more-or-less effect schools we have now, but I thought it would provide a few more restrictions to spellcasters, since spellcasters also get Hero Direct Damage.
Maybe in opposition the Hero Direct Damage ought to be tweaked to give a bit more strength to the more Might style heroes.
Actually, on the contrary, I think it would be a boost to most magic casters - particularly Dungeon, who would probably end up having a larger Mana reserve than they have now and who would only need to memorize one or two spells anyway.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 18, 2008 09:20 PM |
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Quote:
I think that the number of spells you can have in your spell book should be limited and then knowledge should determine the number of spells in it(some other people wrote this before). So if a hero has 3 knowledge, the hero's spell book can contain 3 or 6(if we use a factor of 2 in case of balance).
It's a book, it doesn't require knowledge to store spells, so if you're going to limit it, limit it absolutely (say, 18 spells), not on a per knowledge basis.
Still, having a limited spell book is an interesting idea.
Quote:
Actually, on the contrary, I think it would be a boost to most magic casters - particularly Dungeon, who would probably end up having a larger Mana reserve than they have now and who would only need to memorize one or two spells anyway.
True, but then again numbers are numbers, and numbers can be changed, so I doubt this would be a serious issue (cut down the mana/level or boost spell costs).
On a side note, I once considered making the mana regeneration per day equivalent to power, but I'm not sure how that would work out.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 19, 2008 09:00 AM |
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I think the power of the current system is that it is, in most cases, a trade-off between either powerful spells (more spellpower) or larger casting capacity (more knowledge).
It would be trivial to play a game as Warlock if you were not limited by your mana reserve - it's a constant balance of whether to cast or not, whether to use an empowered spell or not, etc.
On the other hand, when you play Wizard, you have the safe comfort of knowing that most likely, you'll never run out of mana - on the other hand, you won't be able to do the all-elimination casting that a Warlock can.
This is an extremely simply working mechanism, but it has quite fundamental control on the game - and it works very well as I see it. I'm afraid that if you make mana reserve dependant on level, you'll either see unstoppable Warlocks at level 20 - imagine a Warlock with the Wizard's mana reserve, shudders - or you'll see Wizards with an arsenal of spells and magic abilities, but no mana to use them - duh.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 19, 2008 10:13 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 11:09, 19 Nov 2008.
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Not sure how you get that one, because using proportions based on the H5 Knowledge gain probabilities you get something like:
Knight: 2 points/level (rounded up)
Ranger: 3 points/level
Wizard: 5 points/level (rounded up)
Warlock: 2 points/level (rounded up)
Necromancer: 2 points/level (rounded up)
Demon Lord: 3 points/level
Runemage: 2 points/level
Barbarian: 1 point/level
So at level 20 you'd have:
Knight: 40 mana
Ranger: 60 mana
Wizard: 100 mana
Warlock: 40 mana
Necromancer: 40 mana
Demon Lord: 60 mana
Runemage: 40 mana
Barbarian: 20 mana
Of course, these numbers aren't exactly the same as they would be currently, but numbers could be adjusted ie, with 3.2 points/level you'd probably get along the lines of:
3
6
9
13 (or 12 if you round down .8)
16
19
22
25
29 (28)
32
This also prevents (as you fear) massively over-magicked Warlocks from wreaking havoc simply because they happen to have come across a couple of Garden of Revelations.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 19, 2008 11:00 AM |
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I don't get the point of the last numbers in your previous post at all. But are you suggesting that Mana growth is depending on class, so that Wizard has a higher mana-growth per level than, for instance, Warlock?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 19, 2008 11:07 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 11:07, 19 Nov 2008.
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Quote:
I don't get the point of the last numbers in your previous post at all.Quote:
Those last numbers are just how much mana a hero would have if his mana/level was 3.2.
But are you suggesting that Mana growth is depending on class, so that Wizard has a higher mana-growth per level than, for instance, Warlock?
Exactly what I was suggesting, and what I thought was obvious from the start (though obviously it wasn't).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 19, 2008 11:22 AM |
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Obviously it wasn't. But well, that would mean the system would be like the current except for the fact that it was less random as you couldn't increase your mana through artifacts and map locations to increase knowledge?
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What will happen now?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 19, 2008 07:35 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 19:42, 19 Nov 2008.
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Less random (there would be 1-2 artefacts increasing mana gather rates), more gradual (mana doesn't suddenly 'jump' when your Knowledge goes up), and the fact that you only get a limited number of spells that are worth the cost. Ice bolt for example would cost 18 if it wasn't a quick recall spell, Fireball would cost 30, and Firewall would be totally out of reach for the majority of casters even at level 20.
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