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| Thread: Put and end to racism |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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stankelbenet
Adventuring Hero
bringer of nostalgia & darknes
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posted December 01, 2008 03:13 PM |
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First of all: Stop thinking about racism. I don't care about it but I thought it would catch your attention
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Sorry, but I don't think the H3 nostalgic crowd can convince me of anything.
watch out or you will become a HOMM5 nostalgic
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allowing factions to all merge like pen pals
without morale penalties is bad for the strategy of the game as well.
Yes... that definately wouldn't benefit the strategy. There should be morale penalties for mixing armies but not as severe as those i saw in HOMM5.
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lvl 1: Dwarf
lvl 2: Skeleton
lvl 3: Elf
lvl 4: Human Priest
lvl 5: Demon
lvl 6: Angel
lvl 7: Dragon
Let's see how much you'll enjoy that
(and you'll probably find that rascist too, as I put the poor Dwarves, Undead and Elves as weaker than Humans, *yawn*)
LOL... Nice idea but... Mixing all the factions into one would mean that there would be only one faction and that wouldn't help the strategic theme
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Racism is everywhere.
The game would not be realistic without racism.
As i was trying to say ealier: Realism needs to stand back for strategy.
By the way. The heroes universe isn't in any way realistic *cough*magic*cough*
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted December 01, 2008 03:24 PM |
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Yes... that definately wouldn't benefit the strategy. There should be morale penalties for mixing armies but not as severe as those i saw in HOMM5.
Right, you serious?If anything the morale penalties should be raised 
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broadstrong
Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
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posted December 01, 2008 03:52 PM |
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Btw. - to the original poster: In case you forgot, Heroes 3 and Heroes 4 had morale penalties for mixing armies just like Heroes 5 has. Heroes 3 might have been slightly less strict on the subject, but then, the morale system back then was completely different (you couldn't go above +3 for one), so it doesn't really compare.
H3: +3 morale maximum, undead troops gives additional -1 penalty to all other living troops
H4: +10(!) morale maximum, undead troops gives additional -2 penalty to all non-necropolis living troops
H5: +5 morale maximum for effects, though morale can be unbounded, no penalty for undead troops
IMO, H3 and H4 are stricter on morale penalties due to the undead penalty, bounded limits of morale and the mixing of troops from many factions (H3) or from non-aligned factions (H4). I even feel that undead troops should give a -3 morale penalty, if possible.
There should be some morale penalty for mixing factions, otherwise late games would just see high-level heroes with tier 6 and tier 7 troops from 3 or more factions - who would bother with "throngs" of low-level creatures then?
It is probably realistic that heroes also affect morale of troops, although this turns out to make leadership an almost must-have skill (at least for some factions).
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The queer part of the Carcity/Broadstrong/Zamfir[
/b] threeway, equipped with sailing, summon allies, spatial travel and supermover.
Many current projects on hand.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted December 01, 2008 04:10 PM |
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There should be some morale penalty for mixing factions, otherwise late games would just see high-level heroes with tier 6 and tier 7 troops from 3 or more factions - who would bother with "throngs" of low-level creatures then?
Interesting point - without any Morale penalties we wouldn't use tier 1-3 creatures at all, since money is usually more than you need (unless you're using Training)
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted December 01, 2008 04:45 PM |
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When I tried that out in HOMM5 it didn't work. All my creatures refused to move and i was doomed to play the sylvan way EVERY time i chose to play with sylvan
As said, H5 had the imba tactic limitation.
BTW: What was it about heroes addding into the moral penality?
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted December 01, 2008 04:52 PM |
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I don't remember really well, but it goes like this:
For every stack you have, it checks the race of the creature and the race of the hero.
If they are the same race, you get +1 Morale to that stack. If they are 'allies' (as in Good with Good, and Evil with Evil  example: Inferno with Dungeon is Evil with Evil), you get no bonus and no penalty. If they are 'enemies' (Good with Evil and Evil with Good), you get -1 Morale Penalty.
That's about it... I think (for the hero, there are other rules with creatures as well)
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 01, 2008 04:58 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 17:07, 01 Dec 2008.
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H3 didnt make any sense at all.
You are wrong.
Why is everybody spouting on about Heroes III making "no sense"? It had morale penalties just like Heroes V. They simply weren't as severe because the limit to morale was 3.
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Disturbed-Gnu
Supreme Hero
Pro Bacon Vodka Brewer
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posted December 01, 2008 05:03 PM |
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Racism in heroes fations has nothing to do with the real worlds racism.
Heroes 5 is great because of the "racism".. Orcs doesn't belong in a human or dead army. And elves with demons? It works best with faction nationalism.
Moderator's note: Post edited to remove content in violation of Code Of Conduct. Please read further below. This is a warning, if further transgressions against the COC like this takes place, penalties will be applied.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted December 01, 2008 05:28 PM |
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Disturbed, you should be more carefull and not so easily judge people because of their religious believe. AND allthough religions can help discrimination this is not "racism" in the original meaning. Racism is when you hate someone because of as what he is born, not what he believes AND it has allready been officially declared by scientists that no different human "races" exist so racism has no base at all now (well, inded it never had, but some people thought...), but STILL your example has nothing to do with it. ... went a bit off topic but I wantd to make this clear...
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted December 01, 2008 05:51 PM |
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On-topic: H3 also had the Angelic Alliance.
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stankelbenet
Adventuring Hero
bringer of nostalgia & darknes
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posted December 01, 2008 05:53 PM |
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selvfølgelig
by the way jiriki; i have heard that scientists say that races exist. A good proof is that some medicine only can be used by asians and will hurt black people.
Of course different races shouldn't lead to discrimination but we shouldn't either say that everybody is the same. We should love eachother for our differences not for our equalities.
This thread is dead when we begin discussing this
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BlizzardBoy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted December 01, 2008 05:53 PM |
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On the issue of mixing racial skills, I'm going to have to disagree with this as well. At face value, being able to mix racials sounds like fun, but in application, it would make the game so much harder to balance. As diversity increases, balance decreases. I suppose in theory you might be able to pull it off, but I seriously doubt it and you would just end up running into loopholes and adding more randomness to the game concerning who wins or loses.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 01, 2008 06:03 PM |
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Moderator's note: Thread has been cleaned to remove certain parts that went directly against the Code Of Conduct. Please respect the forum rules and your fellow forum members. If anybody have any questions regarding this, contact me through Heroes Messenger. Further transgressions will result in penalties and closing of topic.
Please also note that the Code Of Conduct states explicitely that all posts much be made in English - so, even if I understand what's written in Danish and Norwegian, please refrain from using these languages.
~ End of rant ~
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What will happen now?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 01, 2008 11:36 PM |
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Well then Cepheus, tell me why there are 5 different races in Dungeon, 4 in Ramparts (assuming Pegasi rider is human) and why there are humans in all towns etc
Doesnt make any sense because it aint realistic.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 02, 2008 12:20 AM |
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Well then Cepheus, tell me why there are 5 different races in Dungeon
Those are not races, they are amalgams. The Warlocks who lead the Dungeon armies in Heroes I-III (they're in MM7 too if you have it) created Minotaurs, Harpies, Hydras, Beholders and Manticores through breeding and experimentation. Centaurs and Harpies too, maybe (though not confirmed). Everything else came from the tunnels.
The Wizards in Heroes V don't seem so realistic to me either. "Well then Xerox, tell me why there are 5 different races in Academy" Guess what - both factions created their armies artificially.
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4 in Ramparts (assuming Pegasi rider is human)
No, they're Elves. So that's three races. The reasons why the Centaurs and Dwarves were allied with the Elves are clearly given in Heroes IV.
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why there are humans in all towns etc
You don't explain why you think this doesn't make sense. There are humans in 4/8 of Heroes V's towns, including Inferno. It shows humans are the most populous and diverse race, just like millions of other fantasy worlds which apparently "make no sense" as well. Tell me why they shouldn't be able to adapt to every faction's needs.
Enroth has a storyline reason too, but it'd take a while to explain.
In the context of generic fantasy, Heroes III and V both have some "unrealistic" factions. But there's the context of the games' individual storyline too, which is conveniently overlooked so often 
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dkolb
Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
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posted December 02, 2008 04:00 PM |
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Edited by dkolb at 16:03, 02 Dec 2008.
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I agree and disagree with the OP.
On one hand I don't like these different racial skills in 5 that my hero can't take advantage of but on the other hand heroes 4 system of let's have all of these weird poorly animated creatures strewn all over the map and in the same army isn't good either. Heroes 3 for the most part got it right in that for a human too fight alongside of a rotting zombie would be the absolute worst thing for morale, but some of the morale losses would be pretty dumb I mean would a behemoth loses sleep if griffins were fighting in his army instead of a Roc? No it wouldn't give a rip, but it would if the devil himself was there. So I think it should be set at the individual creatures level. Like an haven army overall has good morale but the gremlins in that army kinda feel a little crappy about the idea.
So to sum up there needs to be racism in heroes but not too much or it
Armies shouldn't be racist but CREATURES should!
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"...once you bought your first green dragon, there was already a necromancer with six or seven boners out and about-Lord_Wook"
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2008 06:07 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 18:08, 02 Dec 2008.
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Okey thanks for leting me now
It would have helped if there were descriptions in HoMM3 so that new players who dont know much about the background story could understand.
And as you can see, I avoided factions like Academy/Tower since they have "constructions". I didnt know that was the case in H3 Dungeon.
Anyway, I still like H5s creature line-ups more.
I just prefer one single theme/race over "several races unite under one banner"!
If humans are indeed the "largest" race and most spread race in Erathia/Colony (lol how originial, both the name colony and the human population... -.-)
Lets just say that I dont agree or like with the old (dead) Might & Magic universe style and prefer the modern ones (except stuff like LOTR etc, I dont like Warhammer very much for some reason).
Im against high tech super robots too aka Forge
Even though it is stated in the background, steampunk is okey but the Ancients and Forge.... are a bit to much in my taste.
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btw what is unrealistic in HoMM5 about creatures? Centaurs are basically the same speices as (other) orcs.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 02, 2008 06:41 PM |
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It would have helped if there were descriptions in HoMM3 so that new players who dont know much about the background story could understand.
The whole thing is described very well in MM7. There's some info in the Heroes III manual also
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Anyway, I still like H5s creature line-ups more.
I just prefer one single theme/race over "several races unite under one banner"!
Different planets, different tastes
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Erathia/Colony (lol how originial, both the name colony and the human population... -.-)
Not Erathia/Colony, Enroth actually. Colony is a psuedonym
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prefer the modern ones (except stuff like LOTR etc, I dont like Warhammer very much for some reason).
Since when were LotR and Warhammer modern?
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Im against high tech super robots too aka Forge
Even though it is stated in the background, steampunk is okey but the Ancients and Forge.... are a bit to much in my taste.
Gotta love those ol'-time Warcraft space aliens and dimensional ships too. 
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btw what is unrealistic in HoMM5 about creatures? Centaurs are basically the same speices as (other) orcs.
Arr, thar be my point matey. The creature itself as shown in mythology doesn't really matter, only its background in the individual universe really does.
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Guarder
Supreme Hero
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posted December 02, 2008 06:45 PM |
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I'm agree with Stankelbenet, Heroes 3/4 race system was cooler than HoMM 5 faction system.
@Xerox why put some old lore in a new game. It is the same to put Harry Potter 1-6 in the start of the seventh book just so we i can read 1 book instead of 7! If you want to know the lore, play earlier games.
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stankelbenet
Adventuring Hero
bringer of nostalgia & darknes
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posted December 03, 2008 03:15 PM |
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I never said anything about the creature system. Cepheus did.
But i agree. I think it's much more cool with a lot of different creatures instead of one race taking up a lot of the tiers.
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