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| Thread: Why is socialism so prevalent in online communities? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Doomforge
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posted December 26, 2008 11:11 AM |
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There are a few things I don't like about capitalism, but there is one I really hate.
That the free market leads to absurds like a random football kicker earning around 500x more than a doctor.
Who is more important, who saves lives? Why does the doctor (at least in Poland) earn minimal wage after 11,5 YEARS of post high school education where private life is nonexistent due to EXCESSIVE amount of things to learn (by rote ofc.) ?
I know nobody wanted it that way and it just happened like that, but the entertainment sector (musicians, actors, sportsmen) get simply too much cash, especially since what they do is completely useless to the world, especially if they are just mediocre in what they do (how many crap pop bands there are? and do you know how much cash they get? lol.. even if you don't know about them, you can blindly guess they get like 50x more cash than you per month..)
Here is where I'd really LIKE to see interventionism.. 
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kookastar
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posted December 26, 2008 11:18 AM |
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this is turning into a debate about capitalism/socialism  Sorry but I have to say something in response, even though it has already been said...
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An example is a homeless hungry man on the street. The liberal emotional response is "oh, poor man, let's feed him and give him shelter". The conservative response is "oh, poor man, let's find out why he's hungry and homeless and see if we can fix the problem".
That's completely incorrect. The capitalist response is - let's find someone who will donate to a charity so we can give him some soup without really trying to fix the problem at all. It trys to mop up the excrement created from it's own system (no i don't think that homeless people are excrement - it's a metaphor). In the process it makes the people "donating" this money feel big about themselves - it feeds their ego and gives them an opportunity to feel better about all the people they've walked on, or taken advantage of to get where they are today. Charity will NEVER make society more equitable. Socialism is a way of seeing the world differently - one day you may truly understand and see the ways capitalism serves to differentiate, dominate, and keep people at the social level they want them. And then say but they COULD have done it. Just because a few people get lucky and can make it, doesn't mean everyone will be able to. There is more to it than that. I could be a billionaire, if I'd been a millionaire to start with.
anyway
back to the topic of this thread
Can you tell us a bit about the forums where you have noticed this trend?
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baklava
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posted December 26, 2008 01:15 PM |
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Quote:
If you prefer anarchy(not forcing anyone to do anything) then you might as well get beaten.
Yeah.
This way only policemen can beat people
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TheDeath
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posted December 26, 2008 02:23 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 14:26, 26 Dec 2008.
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Quote:
No, selfishness = caring only about the self. That doesn't mean that you don't do anything for others.
Selfishness actually means not CARING for others. If you help others because you will be better off (and you don't CARE about them at ALL), then you're 100% selfish. Of course you don't have to be 100% to be called selfish, the world is not black & white.
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If Communism is so stateless, then why did Marx advocate statism?
Because, in Marx's belief, socialism would be the transition between capitalism and communism -- i.e you first need some kind of regulation before people "get used" to the 'community' idea. (and in his view, evolve)
So he advocated socialism because in his view, it would ultimately lead to communism.
And natural selection IS inefficient, think of how many 'strong' (not physically ofc) have been wasted due to UNLUCKY situations. For example, if someone who is 100 times stronger than someone else (again, not just physically) is hit by a meteor, do you call that 'natural selection selected the best outcome!'? 
Also our today's society HARDLY follows natural selection because, let's say, people born today have different situations... and we are more efficient. This is because natural selection is inefficient.
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But I do mind being forced to - which is what socialism is about.
No, socialism forces you and takes away your BETTER SITUATION which you DO NOT DESERVE more than others, because it wasn't your will, or you just had better opportunities. That is unfair so socialism takes it from you -- it's not really 'forcing' because you shouldn't have it in the first place!
@angelito:Quote:
Let's take a look at New York....Bronx.... I don't see this "Let's help this guy and look why he became such a poor guy and then we will fix the problem" attitude. Why is it? Because there is no profit!
Couldn't have said it better 
Also I have to quote Kookastar because she said exactly what I tried so many times, but in a different way:Quote:
And then say but they COULD have done it. Just because a few people get lucky and can make it, doesn't mean everyone will be able to. There is more to it than that. I could be a billionaire, if I'd been a millionaire to start with.
I know this post had some socialism vs capitalism stuff in it, but that wasn't all (natural selection, etc..)
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Zielevitz
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posted December 26, 2008 03:46 PM |
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Socialism is bad - simple argument:
There is no such thing as "free doctor" or "free school" - everything is paid from taxes.
So then what if I don't want to use these "benefits" and also don't want to donate them? I have to do this anyway! What if I care about only me and my family and don't need to give my money to donate this "free doctors" sytem? I have to do this anyway! What could I buy if I would store all this money on bank account? Way more.
If you will ask me "ok, but what if you will for example need expensive operation and you will not have money?" If I would not save my money then it's only my problem - I can't make others to help me.
Of course this "society funds" (I don't know how to call this properly ;P) is not bad at all. This thing is bad only, if everyone is made to donate. If the choice is mine so I can do, but I don't have if I don't want to - everything is ok .
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baklava
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posted December 26, 2008 03:51 PM |
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Quote:
What if I care about only me and my family and don't need to give my money to donate this "free doctors" sytem?
Then you're one selfish prick. 
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TheDeath
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posted December 26, 2008 03:59 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 16:00, 26 Dec 2008.
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Quote:
If you will ask me "ok, but what if you will for example need expensive operation and you will not have money?" If I would not save my money then it's only my problem - I can't make others to help me.
Ok but what if you are born in poverty while someone else exactly like you is born into a good situation and you both need an operation... is it fair that you just were unlucky and he can pay for it, while you can't?
Same thing for education: why help children who can not afford it by public funding?
Tell you why: because "luck" & "situation" shouldn't be a factor deciding who deserves something or not.
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Doomforge
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posted December 26, 2008 04:31 PM |
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Quote:
Socialism is bad - simple argument:
There is no such thing as "free doctor" or "free school" - everything is paid from taxes.
So then what if I don't want to use these "benefits" and also don't want to donate them? I have to do this anyway! What if I care about only me and my family and don't need to give my money to donate this "free doctors" sytem? I have to do this anyway! What could I buy if I would store all this money on bank account? Way more.
Well, my country isn't communistic anymore, yet health service, pensions and such are fully supported from public funding. And it's downright pathetic, especially when it comes to pensions. An average Pole has 10 years of pension after he retires left (retires at 65, dies at 75), but if you sum up all the money they took from you in the form of taxes specifically for that matter, you discover you should get triple or quadruple of what they pay you. It would be 100x better to get rid of public funding of pensions, so people would receive more money and put part of it on a fricking deposit, resulting in pensions being X times higher. Not to mention the money saved on getting rid of that part of inland revenue that takes care of pensions.
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mvassilev
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posted December 26, 2008 06:35 PM |
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NOOOOOOO! People, stop, seriously! This isn't a capitalism vs. socialism thread! I partially blame myself for derailing it, but really, let's get back on topic.
Kooka:
Quote:
Can you tell us a bit about the forums where you have noticed this trend?
Here, of course. The only active people here who are advocates of capitalism here are me, RSF, Corribus, Binabik, Blizzardboy, TA, and apparently Ziel. Whereas the socialists have a whole brigade - TheDeath, Moonlith, Kooka, Angelito, Doomforge, Bak, Joonas, and that's just the far-left people - everybody else is regular left. It doesn't look like too much of a numbers difference, but the socialists are much more active.
Also, at the GameFAQs Politics board, though a lot less extreme. There, we only have three actual socialists/communists, however, there are a lot of people of the regular left.
Doomforge:
Regarding doctors and entertainers, read these Wiki articles. Perhaps they'll clear something up. Marginal utility
Paradox of value
All:
I suspect that most socialists fall into at least one of four categories: too softhearted, indoctrinated, poor and uninformed, or never had a real job.
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Asheera
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posted December 26, 2008 06:41 PM |
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Quote:
The only active people here who are advocates of capitalism here are me, RSF, Corribus, Binabik, Blizzardboy, TA, and apparently Ziel.
Apparently, mostly Americans are capitalists, and very few other non-Americans it seems.
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JoonasTo
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posted December 26, 2008 06:44 PM |
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I think only Moonlith (and possibly theDeath) is far left.
We rest are regular lefts.
Notice a trend here? :
Mvass, american
RSF, american
Corribus, american
Binabik, american
Blizzardboy, american
TA, australian
Ziel, Polish
That's a lot of americans.
Is there a left american here btw?
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TheDeath
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posted December 26, 2008 06:50 PM |
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Quote:
I think only Moonlith (and possibly theDeath) is far left.
We rest are regular lefts.
I'm not that far left
I know my posts may seem like it lol (if you dig hard enough though you'll see) 
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mvassilev
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posted December 26, 2008 06:57 PM |
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Joonas:
Add William to that list. He's also a capitalist Australian.
And yes, there are plenty of left Americans. Nocaplato, Peacemaker, The_Gootch, Consis, etc. But they're not as left-wing as the guys I mentioned earlier. They're not socialists - but still left-wing.
And Kooka seems far-left too, judging from her rhetoric.
TheDeath:
How could you be any more left-wing? There's absolutely no room to your left, at least economically.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 26, 2008 07:02 PM |
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Far left would be communists and true socialists.
Most of us are nowhere near them.
GOOTCH LEFT? Where do you draw the line of being left and right?
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mvassilev
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posted December 26, 2008 07:13 PM |
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He's moderate left, certainly, but I would generally be described as a centrist (though not a moderate), and he's to my left. He supported Obama enthusiastically, whereas I did so reluctantly. Plus Quote:
Economic Left/Right: -3.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.36
was his political compass score. Which is left of center.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 26, 2008 07:17 PM |
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"I would generally be described as a centrist" WHAT!
You're as right as it gets...
So much I would sometimes call you extremist.
Can you link me to that political compass thread? I can't find it anymore.
Why don't we have any british here in HC btw? I'd like to see some british numbers.
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mvassilev
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posted December 26, 2008 07:34 PM |
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I'm as right as it gets? Ridiculous. Look at RSF, for instance. He's definitely to my right. Maybe on HC I'm considered right-wing, but on GameFAQs I'm a moderate, and compared to most of the people I talk to in RL, I'm a radical left-winger. (If you take both economic and non-economic issues together, of course. If you only look at economic issues, then I'm center-right. Certainly not far-right, though.) Or look at American politics in general. I supported Barack Obama, the candidate of the regular left. Compare that to the people who voted for McCain and some of the conservative Republicans. No, I'm centrist. In fact, I'd consider myself center-left.
Political compass thread.
As for British people, that's an interesting question. We have a surprising lack of them on HC. The only one two I can think of off the top of my head are Privatehudson and Cat, but neither is active any more. PH was center-left (IIRC), and Cat was some kind of left-winger, but I'm not sure how far left.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 26, 2008 08:26 PM |
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You say no to regulated market and no to social security. Yet you claim to be left?
Maybe the things you are on the left don't come up in HC.
British are interesting because they used to have social security system but they abandoned it. Yet they have a very strong left front still. Would be interesting tos ee what the new generation of brits think about.
Thanks, for some reason I couldn't find the thread when I searched for it.
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mvassilev
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posted December 26, 2008 08:47 PM |
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I say yes to some regulations and to some forms of social security (i.e. yes to Social Security of the kind we have in the US). Plus I'm on the left about same-sex marriage, abortion (hi TheDeath), drugs, the environment (although not far left), the US's various imperialistic wars, and Israel. And gun control.
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del_diablo
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posted December 26, 2008 09:16 PM |
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Quote:
I say yes to some regulations and to some forms of social security (i.e. yes to Social Security of the kind we have in the US). Plus I'm on the left about same-sex marriage,drugs, the environment
Care to eloborate what that means? I really got no clue on it, atleast what it means in as a leftwinger and stances on it.
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