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| Thread: Utopia and the End of History |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Doomforge
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posted February 23, 2009 09:27 PM |
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Extreme? Idk.. to be honest, my sister's (32 years old) friends go for it like mad.
You know.. one couple (my sister's friend and her husband) are a good example:
-they get a car, drive it for a year and get a new, bigger one, it always seem pointless because they are stuck in traffic jams anyway, where their 3.0 engine is more of a liability then of any use..
-they go for an expensive holiday, just to post millions of photos of how happy they are, and every year, it gets more and more expensive and flashy
And so on...
I wonder whether people can get ever satisfied with just what they have, and focus on other things.. talents, maybe.. instead of over working to get money for a bigger TV, they could for instance practice playing their guitar again, as they did in highschool, and get a lot of free satisfaction of that one..
I, myself, don't need much, just a bike and a PC.. from the things you can buy. oh yes, and steel-capped military boots  But that's all I can think of. And you know what? I'm happy. I'm happy I don't need much. I can focus on my hobbies, not on the "omg I need a new TV" capitalistic approach.
So, my utopia would be a place where people KNOW their passions and focus on THEM, not a new TV. That makes them happy with less money, so they are not as greedy, have more time for their families and are happier overall because the insatiable capitalistic hunger of having more and more and mooooooooore simply doesn't concern them.
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kipshasz
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posted February 23, 2009 09:33 PM |
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An utopia... As long as people complain about something and make trouble there will be no such thing. There were many people who tried to create it, but failed. But we can dream though, thats the only form of pleasure(besides sex)we have for free.
My vision of an utopia is quite hard to describe using only words(you'll need a insane amount of cash to spend in a pub with me  ) Strange as ideas for a better world come to me only when i'm extremely drunk... Anyway my opinion is clear: An Utopia cannot be when there are people thinking like Bush and similiar.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 23, 2009 10:23 PM |
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Quote:
@JJ: this isn't about whether what we have NOW is an Utopia or not. It's about what you think it should look, even if it is impossible. You can even add Angels in the equation if you want
I should have know that you wouldn't understand it.
There can be no utopia, since utopia is a paradoxon - if you HAVE IT that woul mean a standstill; which would make the utopia lacking: there wouldn't be anything to strive for, which would basically lead to degeneration as a matter of course.
So the Utopia is PURSUING THE IDEA OF IT. And it doesn't really matter how it looks like in detail.
Which would mean that Utopia is the state in which the whole world is triving for the same goal(s).
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TheDeath
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posted February 23, 2009 10:28 PM |
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Ever heard of striving to KEEP something instead of GETTING something new?
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xerox
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posted February 23, 2009 10:49 PM |
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I dont think there will ever be some kind of utopia because... because we are humans and humans are and will always be bastards
It is a part of our psychology to act like jerks me thinkez.
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mvassilev
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posted February 23, 2009 11:02 PM |
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TheDeath:
I agree, a lot of people's mentalities really do need to change. But how do we go about that?
As for the organ cloning, that was just an example. If we didn't need it at all, that'd be even better.
Doomforge:
You can't blame people's unhappiness on capitalism. It has nothing to do with that.
A part of people's mentalities needs to change (the consumerism). A part doesn't (the drive to get ahead).
JJ:
You didn't quite understand what I mean by my utopia. Of course it's not at a standstill. There are still new advances in both science and art. But societal advancement would reach its greatest level.
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TheDeath
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posted February 23, 2009 11:27 PM |
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Further, we have to strive to KEEP something. An obvious example would be peace.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 24, 2009 07:20 AM |
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Quote:
JJ:
You didn't quite understand what I mean by my utopia. Of course it's not at a standstill. There are still new advances in both science and art. But societal advancement would reach its greatest level.
Society would reach its greatest level? There is not something like that, and there cannot be something like that; you should know that by now from the different answers you get. So your utopia is something that cannot exist.
@The Death
No one and no society strives to KEEP something, not even peace. A society that's just trying to keep something is trying to conserve a dead body. It may be a beautiful dead body, but it's still a dead body. Society needs development. Goals. A dynamic. Otherwise there will be stagnation. Boredom. Repetition. You see that in everything.
Utopia would be like Paradise, and we all know what happened with that one.
Edit: So let me repeat it: MY utopia is, that the whole world is TOGETHER striving for the same goals. The goals as such are not so important as long as they really aim to make things better. Note that erring is human, so there should be careful and regular examination of the validity of the goals and whether we'd still be on course. I'd expect regular adjustments of goals and courses, since the main point is to HAVE a goal, not to REACH one. Or maybe to reach part-goals, but never the "end of history".
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Doomforge
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posted February 24, 2009 11:08 AM |
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Quote:
Doomforge:
You can't blame people's unhappiness on capitalism. It has nothing to do with that.
A part of people's mentalities needs to change (the consumerism). A part doesn't (the drive to get ahead).
But it's the drive that make people consumerists. We want to get ahead, but not for ourselves; capitalism, or rather, capitalistic culture, is all about having and showing it to the world. Bragging is everywhere, people are constantly brainwashed by it - in TVs, newspapers, radios. We read about "stars" and their super lives, 20 cars and so on. It just fuels up things.
Capitalism teaches people to be good laborers, but doesn't teach them what to do with money and how NOT to be your boss' property. It teaches people to gather goods, but not gives them time to make any use of them.
Economically, I don't know, it's not my cup of tea, maybe it is a great system. But going by psychology, living in capitalism plants the little "perfect life" scheme in people's brains. From the very start. And then we have rat races and so on. I don't like it. The amount of career-obsessed people is getting really extreme, because social pressure demands going up, ascending to higher levels of social status.
The problem is, the very POINT of social status is about bragging and showing people around how much you have and own.
The cult of going up makes weaker individuals feel bad or ridiculed by the pressure of the crowd who "climbs the ladder". Things like slowing down, enjoying life as it is, settling for what we already have is considered LAZY, BAD and NOT PRODUCTIVE.
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mvassilev
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posted February 24, 2009 02:35 PM |
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JJ:
Quote:
I'd expect regular adjustments of goals and courses, since the main point is to HAVE a goal, not to REACH one. Or maybe to reach part-goals, but never the "end of history".
Well, yes, that's kind of what I mean. However, it would be the end of history in a metaphorical sense - no more wars, coups, genocides, etc. Of course there would still be history - but it would be a history like "Bob Superadvanced discovered a new form of teleportation in 2342" - no more than that.
Doomforge:
Quote:
We want to get ahead, but not for ourselves; capitalism, or rather, capitalistic culture, is all about having and showing it to the world. Bragging is everywhere, people are constantly brainwashed by it - in TVs, newspapers, radios. We read about "stars" and their super lives, 20 cars and so on. It just fuels up things.
We don't have to listen.  We can make use of the good things without falling prey to the bad things.
Quote:
Capitalism teaches people to be good laborers, but doesn't teach them what to do with money and how NOT to be your boss' property.
Physics doesn't teach you not to use nuclear weapons - it doesn't teach you not to kill people with guns - it doesn't teach you to not electrocute yourself. Therefore, physics is bad.
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Doomforge
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posted February 24, 2009 02:42 PM |
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Why to mix physics and capitalism? Those are different things. So different that comparing them makes no sense
Capitalism is about style of living (maximizing capital). Physics is just about physical rules that we can't change.
Anyway, it's not of course the system which is bad, but what we do with it, just like religion. I never meant anything different, even if I sounded like that for a moment :X
However, most people go from capitalism to consumerism, and that is bad.
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mvassilev
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posted February 24, 2009 02:46 PM |
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Because neither physics nor capitalism tell you what to do with the stuff that you've acquired through it. They are both wertfrei.
Yeah. This thread has been derailed. Let's get back on topic. Doomforge! What is your utopia?
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Doomforge
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posted February 24, 2009 02:56 PM |
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I've told it already A place where people focus on their inner life, no, not spiritual or over religious ofc. I mean hobbies, they deepen their personalities, aren't work or career obsessed, have time for their friends and/or family. Everyone has a strong set of hobbies and people can easily find those who like the same things, thus, they have easy time finding proper friends and proper BFs/GFs. That's really all. I'd really like to live in such a world.
Because in a place where I live, people are rarely interested in anything, they just live, work, go to school, drink alcohol and that's all. Very shallow and boring, especially for girls. Whatever idea I have about going somewhere or doing something, I always have to do it alone, cuz nobody's interested ;E Unless it's another we-drink-until-we-drop party.
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mvassilev
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posted February 24, 2009 02:58 PM |
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But what if people like their careers?
And it sounds like your life sucks. I doubt it's that way with everyone there - you just haven't found the right people.
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Doomforge
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posted February 24, 2009 03:21 PM |
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They like to work, ratrace and such? umm. Masochism
Naw, my life is fine. I just wish sometimes my friends were more active in life, rather than only going to school, working and drinking.
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mvassilev
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posted February 24, 2009 03:29 PM |
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Some people actually like their jobs. Like my dad, for instance.
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Doomforge
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posted February 24, 2009 03:37 PM |
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Yeah, but I guess hes not obsessed about job and career, is he?
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DeadMan
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posted February 24, 2009 03:53 PM |
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A true utopia would mean an end to people being motivated by their selfish desires - such as to be happy.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 24, 2009 03:59 PM |
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For the ants, maybe. I dount it for humans, though.
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angelito
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posted February 24, 2009 03:59 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 15:59, 24 Feb 2009.
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My Utopia is almost always guarded by 5 blackies when I have a weak army, and 1 black when I am strong...
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