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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 04, 2009 05:13 PM |
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Quote:
PS: Can we change specialiaztion? For example to make specialization in skeletons from specialization in zombies?
No, read my post above after vokialbg's question.
Quote:
I'm unable to devellop archery perk and to get Nature's Wrath (just Flaming Arrows with Master of Fire)
in Skills.xdb, Nature's Wrath is a logistic perk..and only reachable by preserve classes..
Thanks for bug notifying, this will be corrected in upcoming releases.
Quote:
does your screen shot shows too others faction path?
The skillwheel is universal but were you see a number, a faction gets ONE of the skills added behind the number. For example:
only sylvan gets nature wrath+imbue ballista. All the others will get flaming arrows+fiery wrath instead. There are also some extra prerequisities not visible in the current table:
tactics->preparation
scouting->swift mind
master of fire/corrupt destructive->flaming arrows
master of curses->twilight
master of mind->remote control
master of earthblood->tremors
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 14, 2009 12:01 AM |
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*Thread revival*
This project is currently suffering from the following problems:
-Training doesn't work for other classes then knights.
-elemental vision doesn't work for other classes then warlocks
-it's impossible to make the ultimate skills work in any of the proposed skill systems
(i have done a lot of testing on this and I will spare you the technical details)
-it's impossible to make a good might class for dungeon as long as it must have
irresistable magic as racial skill (it's not the elemental vision problem I'm talking about, but the nature of the skill and the fact that dungeon has only spellpower hungry magic schools)
-it's problematic to make a good magic class for haven because of the nature of the racial skill and perks
-the avenger skill is not very useful for a spellcaster
-the artificier skill is problematic, because a really effective artificier (read: might class) must have around 45% knowledge
In the end it all comes to one main problem: the nature of the racial skills obstructs the creation of fully effective might and magic classes. Of course I knew this already in the beginning but the technical problems have made it a lot worse. I have done a lot of thinking and testing the last few weeks and are currently considering starting a new project with a different approach. I will explain this approach here so you can give your opinion.
I'm thinking about making the skillsystem 'free' and create classes in a more similar way like in homm4 were every secondary skill defines a class, that way the classes become something like this:
counterstrike - knight
attack - assassin
defense - defender
leadership - lord
dark magic - heretic
summoning magic - summoner
light magic - enchanter
sorcery - sorcerer
war machines - engineer
logistics - guildmaster
luck - seer
artificier - alchemist
necromancy - necromancer
shatter dark - paladin
gating - demon lord
irresistable magic - warlock
This list is not complete, but I'm just giving enough examples to understand, now every faction can have up to 3 or 4 classes, for example:
haven: knight + lord + paladin + heretic
dungeon: assassin + guildmaster + elementalist + warlock
The total amount of skills in the game is 26:
12 generally useful skills
4 shatters
2 generally useful racials (irresistable and counterstrike after modifications)
1 necromancy (potentially useful for inferno (ally) and dungeon (sacrifical meat))
5 racials that only work for one faction.
2 skills that only work for barbarian
Out of this 26 skills every class can have a unique combination of 12 skills, let's give an example of a paladin class:
class skill: shatter dark
other 11 skills:
counterstrike
defense
attack
light magic
summoning magic
enlightment
sorcery
war machines
logistics
leadership
luck
or a wizard:
class skill: destructive magic
other 11 skills:
irresistable magic
summoning magic
dark magic
light magic
sorcery
enlightment
defense
artificier
war machines
logistics
luck
(as you see the wizard cannot learn attack and leadership, but it can learn irresistable magic)
This is just brainstorming to get the idea, nothing definitive. Somewhere in the next few weeks I will try to make a decision. In the mean time you can post your ideas here, in the future it's highly likely I will start a new thread (if I decide to give the project another direction).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 14, 2009 08:35 AM |
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Sad to hear about the technical troubles.
About the racials, we knew from the beginning that it would be inherent to the project that not all ultimates and racials would be eqyally useful. I had hoped we could have had the synergy approach to soften this problem, but even if (when) that does not work, I don't see the racials as being crucial. After all, you don't always go for ultimates with the current classes, by the same means, you'll just be less likely to go for the ultimates with the new classes - and in many cases, I even try to avoid the racial skill with some of the current classes (Haven, Academy, Dwarves, don't have any need of it until late in game).
I never really got a definitive "no" to my question as to whether it would be possible to change the program lines in the game file from looking at classes to looking at factions (i.e. instead of testing "is hero _Knight_" then test "is faction _Haven_")?
____________
What will happen now?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 14, 2009 01:39 PM |
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Quote:
I had hoped we could have had the synergy approach to soften this problem, but even if (when) that does not work,
I have read your thread in the altar of wishes and I understand better what you mean. Nonetheless i'm sure now ultimate skills cannot work for any non-native classes so they are out no matter what the direction of the project will be.
Quote:
I don't see the racials as being crucial. ... and in many cases, I even try to avoid the racial skill with some of the current classes (Haven, Academy, Dwarves, don't have any need of it until late in game).
Yes, I can add to that I also avoid avenger a lot because the use of the avenger building just annoys me. That's why I think my new idea is actually good, people can decide to go without the racial and pick 6 normal skills or they can pick the racial later in game. They will have complete freedom of choice. Only the ultimate skills will be sacrified, probably also the pendant of mastery. It's also likely the dungeon second magic school will become dark.
Quote:
I never really got a definitive "no" to my question as to whether it would be possible to change the program lines in the game file from looking at classes to looking at factions (i.e. instead of testing "is hero _Knight_" then test "is faction _Haven_")?
Simonak is right about the complexity of this, which is far more then changing some numbers to unlock more classes and requires experience in reverse engineering exe files. I have sended an IM to BAD some time ago and asked if he was willing to help, but the answer was 'no' because of RL issues. I will not give you a definitive 'no', but I don't expect anything to happen om this problem ever.
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 15, 2009 02:10 AM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 04:01, 15 Apr 2009.
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Quote:
This project is currently suffering from the following problems:
In my side, when I began my own project I simply decided to name "restrictions from the code" to it.
Ex: Ok, only Knight are able to training....why not? at worst, that is not a failure.
Who will training if it is not the only hero hired for it?
hire a knight that's it!
and anyway, a knight hired in another castle than Haven doesn't need to training.
Why does Knight are only to be able to training?
Because, the terrain ground is sacred by priests and only some guys, chosen by the king, then being Knight can enter inside.
for the others problems, this is the same thing.
Ex: about Irresistible Magic,
what is the advantage for others faction to learn that?
I think Empowered Spells is clearly enough for.
This is the sacrifice for others faction: hold Irresistible Magic for Empowered Spells
I moved Erratic Mana to Irresistible Magic for others factions and Dark Ritual works for all.
and so on
btw, your new ideas are good as well.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 15, 2009 11:32 AM |
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Quote:
I simply decided to name "restrictions from the code" to it.
I understand what you mean, small icon changes, name changes and descriptions can easily change everything to make sense if it comes to lore. But the main problem here is gameplay not lore. Let's give an example of the dungeon faction might class. The current magic schools are summoning+destructive so you need at least 30% spellpower to be effective. A hero also starts with irresistable magic so you definitely want destructive. For a destructive caster sorcery is also a must have and once you have the combo irresistable+destructive+sorcery, enlightment is obviously the next pick. So that leaves the might class with only two spaces left to pick might skills. Basically the might class for dungeon simply becomes a warlock with slightly more attack and slightly less spellpower. This would be a totally different story if the second magic school was dark instead of summoning and the dungeon might class would start with attack instead of irresistable.
Dark magic doesn't require sorcery or enlightment to be effective nor does it need much spellpower. So a dungeon might class can be fully effective with a build uplike this:
attack+luck+logistics+darkmagic+leadership+war machines.
Now that would really provide some new gameplay with dungeon. Many factions have similar problems: avenger is useless, since the warden wants to spend all his turns on casting spells. The damage bonus for counterstrike is really a joke without any might (primary) skills. Also benediction is useless if you have tons of knowledge and superior spells available. Artificier is a skill that translates knowledge into might so an academy might class should have superior knowledge, but have hardly any spellpower and sorcery skill to use it effective.
Quote:
Ex: about Irresistible Magic,
what is the advantage for others faction to learn that?
I can modify this skill with more useful (not faction specific) perks, then it can be useful for any destructive magic caster (wizard, runemage, heretic etc)
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 15, 2009 11:09 PM |
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Quote:
Could you download this exe and increase the base limit to 999, then reupload?
the Kronos's exe has been modified in 2 offsets (7120770 and 7215649) to increase NCF slot limit to 999
by replacing « F401 » (500) to « E803 » (1000)
http://www.speedyshare.com/164189258.html
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 16, 2009 11:26 AM |
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Thanks! Simonak, if I ever manage to finish this, I will add you to the credits list.
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Willow
Adventuring Hero
Tree of Knowledge
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posted April 17, 2009 10:51 AM |
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Quote:
I'm thinking about making the skillsystem 'free' and create classes in a more similar way like in homm4 were every secondary skill defines a class, that way the classes become something like this:
Would the new classes have special abilities, like in H4? Is that even possible to do in H5?
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted April 17, 2009 07:44 PM |
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Dual Hero Classes
Well.Working Hard?I think i have an Idea for the dual Classes.
Haven
Classes
Might:Knight
Magic:Cleric
Clerics:
Pirivan
Skill:Malleus Malleficatum:All units in the army deal +2 bonus damage to undead type units for each hero level starting from level 1.
Ingham
Skill:Cardinal:All Priests,Inquisitors and Zealots get Enraged ability plus they deal +3 damage each 3 hero levels.1st level increases attack +5.Priests Gain Ice Bolt,Inquisitors Circle of Frost while Zealots gain Fireball.
Alaric(No more Knight and playable in scenarios.Also changed ability)
Skill:Lord of the Red Order:All Zealots Gain +4 attack and defence for each 2 hero Levels starting from level 1.Also Zealots gain Meteor Shower and Fireball plus Vindicators,Champions and Seraphs gain +6 attack and defence each 4 hero levels starting from level 1
Sanya
Skill:Maiden of Healing:Starts with a First Aid Tent and the Tent gains + 3 defence each 3 levels and + 100 Health Points each 5 levels both starting from level 1.Also all units in hero's army get +50 health points each 2 hero levels.
Isabeau
Skill:Maiden of the Cross:All Angels and Archangels(no Seraphs)gain + 5 attack and defence points each 4 hero levels starting from level 1.
Since Clerics are too powerful there are only 5 of them.But they are not invincible.
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted April 17, 2009 08:15 PM |
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Well,the cleric's Death.
Necropolis
Magic:Necromancer
Sandro
Skill-Master of Darkness-(Markal's special ability and Nicolai's new one).Plus he can transform all Skeleton Warriors,Skeletons,Skeleton Archers and in Mummies.All units in his army gain +5 damage and +5 armor for each hero level starting from level 1.(Markal's model with changed textures and a half skull face)
Markal-(Playable in scenarios
Might-Death Knights
Vampire Lord Nicolai(Playable in Scenarios.No more Necromancer,also changed ability)
Skill:Fallen Prince:Can upgrade Vampire Lords into Death knight and Nosferatus into Black Knights.Also gets 5 Skeleton Warriors each day.Their production increase +5 for each hero level starting from level 1.
Orson-(old Skill)
Ornella(Undead)-(0ld skill but playable in scenarios)
Giovanni-(Old skills but playable in scenarios)
Galthran
Skill:Skeleton Master:Same as Orson's Skill but for skeletons,skeleton archers and skeleton warriors.Also Nicolai's skeleton ability.
I think that the Undead Heroes are too strong and so there can not be other heroes
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 18, 2009 11:12 PM |
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@Willow:
It is easy to bind specializations to classes, you can also give every class an unique perk, which will surely be the case for warlocks and knights. However, you cannot create advanced classes like in heroes 4, were the gain of a second skill changes the nature of the class.
@Immortal:
Always good to see new faces and new ideas, but you could have read a couple of pages back that it is not possible to create new skills or specializations.
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mirthless
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 20, 2009 07:08 PM |
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Hi,
I was wondering if it's possible to add some new skills ids similar way you added new classes ?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 21, 2009 12:52 PM |
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Likely, but it is not possible to program new attributes for the skills.
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mirthless
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 21, 2009 07:39 PM |
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Quote:
Likely, but it is not possible to program new attributes for the skills.
It's possible to a certain extent using map scripts.
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 21, 2009 11:20 PM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 23:22, 21 Apr 2009.
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Quote:
Quote:
Likely, but it is not possible to program new attributes for the skills.
It's possible to a certain extent using map scripts.
Perhaps, but It is not a really good idea to use scripts for this project.
I think scripts don't work on multiplayer maps and even if yes, scripts must be always
integrated in the specific map rather to be localised in UserMODs/data folder.
But I would like to see an example:
Can you show us a script code of what you're speaking?
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted April 24, 2009 03:26 PM |
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@magnomagus
Mmh,so,impossible doing that,eh.At Least I shall Try!As a true Hero Of Might and Magic,thow inside a tavern.
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Mirthless
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 02, 2009 06:05 PM |
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Sorry for my long absence.
I will give a more detailed background to my previous question:
We've been working on Tournament Edition mod for ToE for some time.
There we tweaked some skills using map scripts. For example: we've made leadership, when taken by necromancer, give penalty to enemy hero morale instead of boosting your own, Estates give additional 20 gold for every hero level, Seal of Protection increase defence for 2 + 1 for every 5 levels and some more changes.
But we can do only as much as script API allows us to (none of us are common with disassembly, hexediting and such), so we ask if it's possible to at least add some skill id's (for us to be able to implement some new skills) or maybe, if we would start cooperation to tweak some numbers in exe file.
It's not an urgent matter because next version is already more or less finished and would probably be released without exe tweaking.
But we wanted to study this option to determine our next goals.
PS: Map scripts are not oblighted to be connected to a particular map. If one calls your code using DoFile() command from, for example, /scripts/advmap-common.lua, your code will work on all maps (even on multiplayer ones if scripts are enabled there)
PS2: And one more thing, i've seen you used Barbarians Luck in you skill trees. If i recall correct this skill is broken (it always gives 5% damage reduction, no matter how high hero luck is), so probably you should consider it's removal or attempt to find the way to repair it (or at least change pathetic 5% to something more considerable) in binary.
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 02, 2009 06:20 PM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 18:21, 02 May 2009.
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Interesting and relevant informations.
Now, remains to know what the project modder thinks about that.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 02, 2009 06:31 PM |
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Quote:
There we tweaked some skills using map scripts. For example: we've made leadership, when taken by necromancer, give penalty to enemy hero morale instead of boosting your own, Estates give additional 20 gold for every hero level, Seal of Protection increase defence for 2 + 1 for every 5 levels and some more changes.
That's still some very interesting progress. 
____________
What will happen now?
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This thread is pages long: 
