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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 23, 2009 02:54 PM |
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I wasn't trying to change your scheme actually, but to make my own.
I asked this before you posted  :
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everybody please focus on suggesting changes to this scheme (if desired) instead of coming up with full new plans.
doesn't matter anyway.
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there's one funny thing, you absolutely want to connect "master of life" with necromancers. but it's called "master of life", not "master of death". that's why I chose guardian angel.
Master of life boosts raise death spell, therefore I called it the necro branch. This only means I want to put the necro skills after master of life.
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Compared to Fiery Wrath (+10 % damage), Cold Steal (+10 % damage) or Expert Attack (+20 % damage over 3 levels) that IS very strong.
You are actually killing your own argument here, 10% vs 12,5% is not like 'much stronger', also elven luck goes over 6 level ups compared to attack.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 23, 2009 02:54 PM |
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Wow, some really radical ideas here. Some of them are really great, actually - I'll give my feedback here.
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Light
Master of blesses => Seal of darkness => Power of endurance (focus on blessing)
Master of abjuration => Fire resistance => Eternal light (focus on resistance)
Master of wrath => Twilight => Teleport assault (focus on attack)
Power Of Endurance in Light Magic seems a bit superfluous, the whole point of the perk is to have Might classes that don't take Light Magic have the access to this spell with Mass Effect.
Teleport Assault - again, I think it's a waste to put it in Light Magic, because you already have access to Teleport here, on the other hand I get the point with the hasting effect ...
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Dark
Master of curses => Weakening strike => Dark renewal (focus on cursing)
Master of mind => Seal of light => Shrug darkness (focus on neutralising)
Master of pain => Corrupted soil => Pariah (focus on damaging)
The crossover on some perks might work for balance (i.e. Pariah and Weakening Strike in separate branches). I agree with you swapping Seal Of Light and Seal Of Darkness.
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Destructive
Master of fire => Fire wrath => Ignite (focus on fire damage)
Master of ice => Cold steel => Cold death (focus on cold damage)
Master of storm => Fog veil => Stormwind (focus on handicaping)
Stormwind - brilliant! Love this idea. Fog Veil - perhaps not so much, but could work. Still think Sap Magic is well placed in this branch, so Master Of Storms => Sap Magic => Storm Wind.
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Summoning
Master of conjuration => Fire warriors => Elemental balance (focus on summoning)
Master of earthblood => Death to non-existent => Tremors (focus on destruction)
Master of life => Arcane armor => Guardian angel (focus on surviving)
Fire Warriors + Elemental Balance. 
Tremors - I can follow the logic, but again, with Summoning, you already have access to Earthquake ... not that great.
Guardian Angel - sorry, but this belongs in Light Magic, simply because this is a Haven skill, and what the hell (sorry) would Haven do with Summoning Magic?
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Sorcery
Mysticism => Distract => Counter spell (focus on countering spells)
Arcane training => Refined mana => Erratic mana (focus on keeping mana)
Magic insight => Arcane virtuosity => swift mind (focus on casting spells)
Distract + Counterspell - yes, I agree, but might be overpowered.
Refined Mana - brilliant. I'd buy that.
Swift Mind ... ok, I would normally put this in Enlightenment, if nothing else because the perk is pretty imba in itself, and Swift Mind + Sorcery = double overkill.
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Enlightment
Erudition => Major of promotion => Tutor (focus on training heroes)
Intelligence => Scientist => Dark ritual (focus on increasing the mana pool)
Arcane intuition => Arcane exaltation => Dark revelation (focus on learning stuffs)
Sorry, but what is Erudition?
Dark Ritual ... ok, interesting. I might buy that - the perk sucks, however, so it's probably waste of a skill slot.
Scientist - is that Secrets Of Destruction?
And what's Major Of Promotion?
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Defense
Endurance => Missile deflection => Last stand (focus on surviving)
Defensive formation => Stand your ground => Preparation (focus on preparation)
Protection => Bone ward => Sap magic (focus on magic protection)
Missile Deflection?
Protection > Bone Ward > Sap Magic is a poor combination: Here you have three perks that do exactly the same, you just stack one on top of the other. I'm all for synergy, but this is overkill, and when you have perks that are identical, they should be in different skills.
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Luck
Warrior luck => excruciating strike => warlock luck (focus on increasing damage)
Resourcefulness => Tear of asha vision => Spoil of war (focus on finding resource)
Magic resistance => Barbarian luck => Dwarven luck (focus on magic resistance)
Barbarian Luck + Dwarven Luck in same branch is probably again overkill. Rather move Barbarian Luck to Defence > Protection and Sap Magic back to Destructive if you ask me.
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Logistic
Scouting => Silent stalker => Power of speed (focus on taking the advantage)
Death march => War path => Familiar ground (focus on speed)
Pathfinding => Snatch => Navigation (focus on exploring)
Power Of Speed ... ok ... I still think Teleport Assault could remain here, like I said in Light Magic.
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Leadership
Recruitment => Estate => Retribution (focus on the army)
Diplomacy => Counter strike => Empathy (focus on the relation of the hero with the amy)
Artificial glory => Power of speed => Divine guidance (focus on speed)
I think I had the same lineup previously. 
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War machine
Ballista => Triple ballista => Flamming arrows (focus on ballista)
Catapult => Triple catapult => Runic machine (focus on catapult)
First aid tent => Plague tent => Remote control (focus on tent)
Tripple Ballista + Flaming Arrows in same skill? 
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Attack
Tactics => Offensive formation => Aura of swiftness (focus on preparation)
Frenzy => Archery => Nature's wrath (focus on damage)
Poweful blow => Stunning blow => Deadeye shot (focus on hero attack)
Tactics + Aura Of Swiftness = overkill. Again, here you have two perks that on bottom line do the same, so distribute them in two different skills.
Will Nature's Wrath work on other factions than Sylvan?
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Compared to Fiery Wrath (+10 % damage), Cold Steal (+10 % damage) or Expert Attack (+20 % damage over 3 levels) that IS very strong.
You are actually killing your own argument here, 10% vs 12,5% is not like 'much stronger', also elven luck goes over 6 level ups compared to attack.
How so? Each level of Attack adds +5 % of Damage. Fiery Wrath and Cold Steal adds 10 % of damage with one perk. They are strong in themselves. Elven Luck adds 12.5 % and thus is even stronger.
Anyway, we're kind of arguing in circles here. I'm not even sure we'll ever reach an agreement, but then we'll have to find some way of making a final call on a model, and then individuals may edit it to their liking afterwards.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 23, 2009 03:10 PM |
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Refined Mana - brilliant. I'd buy that.
mmm.., that could solve our small light magic problem, but one skill needs to move to make place, maybe distract to training, makes even more sense then armorer.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 23, 2009 03:36 PM |
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Quote:
Anyway, we're kind of arguing in circles here. I'm not even sure we'll ever reach an agreement, but then we'll have to find some way of making a final call on a model, and then individuals may edit it to their liking afterwards.
Yes, but the idea of building a mod with flaws so individuals can adapt later doesn't work out. A mod like this has the potential to become almost as big as WOG, but it can also completely fail. It is succesfull when it adds a huge amount of new balanced gameplay and many people start playing H5 again, in that scenario they also want to discuss strategies etc, and that isn't possible if everyone has it's own edition. If it fails, a small group of people will download it, then try to adapt it to own liking, come to the conclusion nobody is interested and then throw it away.
My approach is to find a golden middle road, that makes at least everyone happy with let's say 60-70% of the system. Therefore I hope this thread grows as much as possible with opinions, while i'm still working on the other parts of the mod. I also try to look at older posts on other forums with opinions from people that were never posted with the intention to work on this mod but still contain relevant visions. This to make a wider view.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 23, 2009 06:17 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Anyway, we're kind of arguing in circles here. I'm not even sure we'll ever reach an agreement, but then we'll have to find some way of making a final call on a model, and then individuals may edit it to their liking afterwards.
Yes, but the idea of building a mod with flaws so individuals can adapt later doesn't work out. A mod like this has the potential to become almost as big as WOG, but it can also completely fail. It is succesfull when it adds a huge amount of new balanced gameplay and many people start playing H5 again, in that scenario they also want to discuss strategies etc, and that isn't possible if everyone has it's own edition. If it fails, a small group of people will download it, then try to adapt it to own liking, come to the conclusion nobody is interested and then throw it away.
My approach is to find a golden middle road, that makes at least everyone happy with let's say 60-70% of the system. Therefore I hope this thread grows as much as possible with opinions, while i'm still working on the other parts of the mod. I also try to look at older posts on other forums with opinions from people that were never posted with the intention to work on this mod but still contain relevant visions. This to make a wider view.
Ok, I'm glad you answered that. We need to strive towards finding some way to make the final decisions.
Here's what I suggest as an approach:
1) We take the skills one by one, and discuss them 'til we're satisfied. I know some perks might be discussed outside their final setting, but overall, I think we need to focus to make a decision.
2) We need to decide what we find most important. For me, it's pretty clear, I prioritize things this way:
a) Balance - this is probably the most important thing for me.
b) Gameplay optimization. With this I mean that we find a solution which makes the most fun game.
c) Logic - the setup should make sense, preferably, but this is to me secondary to above.
d) Other isues like neatness and aesthetics. Since we're not making the game from scratch, sometimes we must compromise to reach the best possible solution.
I'd like to hear your oppinion on the above. I'll be willing to go a long way to reach a common ground, but I think we need to establish what "rules" we're working under less we just talk by each other.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 23, 2009 06:41 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 19:08, 23 Mar 2009.
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as you can guess I chose the "logic" way
the way I modified the skillwheel allows you to really be specialised in the area you want.
btw, don't forget that some things which may look too weak or overkill may be modded.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 23, 2009 06:58 PM |
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Quote:
as you can guess I chose the "logic" way
the way I modified the skillwheel allows you to really be specialised in the area you want.
btw, don't forget that some things which may look too weak or overkill may be modded.
I can follow the reasoning behind your approach, but personally I object to it, because I find it poor for balance and poor for gameplay.
Poor for balance, because you can very easily be very strong in something at a relatively low "cost". Take for instance your branch Defence: Protection > Sap Magic > Boneward.
This provides you with a very high Protection, which may be good, but it comes at too low a price: You "only" invest your Defence skill in this project. Thus, you can use the perk slots of all your other skills freely of this, which is unbalanced: You hamper someone very severely without hampering yourself that much.
It is also poor for gameplay, because the only way you can get Protection from Magic Damage is by taking Defence > Protection branch. This means you have to go this way if you need magic protection, which cuts down your freedom, which is in terms bad gameplay construction if you ask me.
The idea behind skill synergy is that you can be very specilised in something, but it comes at a cost: If you REALLY want to boost your Magic Protection, you can pick BOTH Defence > Protection AND Destructive Magic > Master Of Storms / Sap Magic AND Sorcery > XXX / Bone Ward - but now it comes at the cost that it cuts you off from a lot of other possibilities - you need to lock yourself on three skills, and you cut yourself off from other branches like Master Of Fire and Master Of Ice.
And that's good game construction imo., because you now face the dilemma: Do you wanna specialize, i.e. become very good at one thing at the cost of diversity, or do you wanna generalize, i.e. become moderately good at several things, but without really optimizing any of them. And that's what I consider to be strategy.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 23, 2009 07:08 PM |
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Power Of Endurance in Light Magic seems a bit superfluous, the whole point of the perk is to have Might classes that don't take Light Magic have the access to this spell with Mass Effect.
I first thought about :
Master of blesses => Seal of darkness => Eternal light
Master of abjuration => Fire resistance => Guardian angel
but then decided than guardian angel seemed to fit well with Master of life. I chose Mass endurance because it fits well with the concept of master of blesses.
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Teleport Assault - again, I think it's a waste to put it in Light Magic, because you already have access to Teleport here, on the other hand I get the point with the hasting effect ...
I chose teleport assault because it fits well with the concept and is a light spell.
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Stormwind - brilliant! Love this idea. Fog Veil - perhaps not so much, but could work. Still think Sap Magic is well placed in this branch, so Master Of Storms => Sap Magic => Storm Wind.
Simple logic. Storm, Wind, Rain, Fog...
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Fire Warriors + Elemental Balance.
what's wrong? it would make senses that the perks allow you to summon things.
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Tremors - I can follow the logic, but again, with Summoning, you already have access to Earthquake ... not that great.
Tremors is improved by Master of earthblood. but I think you know it.
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Guardian Angel - sorry, but this belongs in Light Magic, simply because this is a Haven skill, and what the hell (sorry) would Haven do with Summoning Magic?
why should guardian angel be a haven perk? and why shouldn't a haven hero choose the summoning magic? I think that's the point of choosing the magic hero over the might one.
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Distract + Counterspell - yes, I agree, but might be overpowered.
possible
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Swift Mind ... ok, I would normally put this in Enlightenment, if nothing else because the perk is pretty imba in itself, and Swift Mind + Sorcery = double overkill.
it counter balances distract + counter spell 
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Sorry, but what is Erudition?
Dark Ritual ... ok, interesting. I might buy that - the perk sucks, however, so it's probably waste of a skill slot.
Scientist - is that Secrets Of Destruction?
And what's Major Of Promotion?
Erudition = Teach spell to other heroes
Scientist = +2 knowledge, +1000 XP
Major of promotion = +2 spellpower, +1000 gold.
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Missile Deflection?
-20% damage from range reduction
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Protection > Bone Ward > Sap Magic is a poor combination: Here you have three perks that do exactly the same, you just stack one on top of the other. I'm all for synergy, but this is overkill, and when you have perks that are identical, they should be in different skills.
that made sense. -55% magical damage.
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Barbarian Luck + Dwarven Luck in same branch is probably again overkill. Rather move Barbarian Luck to Defence > Protection and Sap Magic back to Destructive if you ask me.
Actually, I thought about putting Sap magic in sorcery. with counterspell (or distract)
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Power Of Speed ... ok ... I still think Teleport Assault could remain here, like I said in Light Magic.
Actually i had no idea what to put here, since I had already used all the perks which could have fit better.
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I think I had the same lineup previously.
even counter strike?
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Tripple Ballista + Flaming Arrows in same skill?
It's what you get for specializing in ballista. but maybe magic heroes should have imbued arrows instead of flaming arrows.
Is it more overkill than triple ballista + runic machine (+ maybe flaming arrows?) in my line up you can't get triple ballista and runic machine.
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Tactics + Aura Of Swiftness = overkill. Again, here you have two perks that on bottom line do the same, so distribute them in two different skills.
probably, but that seemed to make a lots of sense.
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Will Nature's Wrath work on other factions than Sylvan?
don't know. I thought of putting power of speed here too.
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Willow
Adventuring Hero
Tree of Knowledge
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posted March 23, 2009 08:22 PM |
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It's what you get for specializing in ballista. but maybe magic heroes should have imbued arrows instead of flaming arrows.
Is it more overkill than triple ballista + runic machine (+ maybe flaming arrows?) in my line up you can't get triple ballista and runic machine.
Can other factions learn Imbue Ballista without having the Imbue Arrow perk? And can other factions learn Imbue Arrow?
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted March 23, 2009 08:32 PM |
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Can other factions learn Imbue Ballista without having the Imbue Arrow perk?
Of course but what use will it have?Quote:
And can other factions learn Imbue Arrow?
No idea, they can probably but not sure if their attacks will be imbued. Also, I don't think it's such a good idea making Imbue Arrow a general skill for all factions. I mean, it's one of Sylvan's racials. 
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 23, 2009 09:53 PM |
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Before continue on the topic of creating skillbranches I have done some research on the defaultstats.xdb on which skills can be changed and which not. I read through some topics in the temple (especially the useless skills thread) and I have some suggestions for improvement, that can be taken in mind when considering the power of skills. I have also listed 3 highly impopular skills that unfortunately cannot be boosted.
Some possible Skillchanges:
Nerfs:
Familiar ground = +1 speed (was +2)
Death march= +3 speed (was 4)
(these changes taking in mind everyone can get aura of swiftness+these skills)
Elven Luck Damage multiplier = 20% (was 25%)
Stormwind = -10% initiative -1 speed (was 20,2)
Boosts:
Tremors Damage = +10 per power (was 5)
Banish Damage = +15 for every hero level (was 10)
Corrupted Soil Damage= +5 for every hero level (was 3)
Weaken Magic Spellpower decrease = 33% (was 25%)
Skills that cannot be boosted:
Spoils of War
Soulfire
Chilling Bones
We could also lower the max bonus for formations, but at this stage
it is difficult to say if these skills are too powerful or not because nobody ever played with them with other factions.
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Can other factions learn Imbue Ballista without having the Imbue Arrow perk?
No they can't, they can learn the skill but the ability doesn't show up in the spellbook (I have tested it), therefore I'm not even sure yet the new warden class can learn it. I managed in 3.0 to create an academy hero with imbue ballista as specialization by predefining the spell in it's spellbook, but I'm not sure that is possible in 3.1.
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quote:Fire Warriors + Elemental Balance.
what's wrong? it would make senses that the perks allow you to summon things.
I'm still having difficulties with firewarriors behind earthblood too, I'm quite sure that every player who want master of conjuration also wants firewarrior or vice versa, so the skill that's placed behind firewarriors will never be picked no matter what it, because they would always pick: conjuration+earthblood+firewarriors. If I boost banish as suggested we can have a perfect branch for elemental specialists and a perfect branch for countering elementals and inferno (exorcism+banish). If elemental balance is really 'that powerful' we could add an extra prerequisite.
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 23, 2009 11:24 PM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 23:25, 23 Mar 2009.
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Quote:
quote:
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And can other factions learn Imbue Arrow?
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No idea, they can probably but not sure if their attacks will be imbued. Also, I don't think it's such a good idea making Imbue Arrow a general skill for all factions. I mean, it's one of Sylvan's racials.
Imbue Arrow perfectly works for all factions even if it's a Avenger's perk or any skill's perk.
Moreover, too funny (oups!) to see a knight is running to hit a ennemy and to see a ice bolt on it in same time 
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2009 12:00 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 09:01, 24 Mar 2009.
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Quote:
Also, I don't think it's such a good idea making Imbue Arrow a general skill for all factions. I mean, it's one of Sylvan's racials.
I proposed to change some racial perks in my post too :
Favored enemies
Elven luck
Rain of arrow
Know your enemy
Nature luck
imbued arrows could still be available to sylvan, but by another way (like attack => archery => whatever => imbued arrow. it makes it harder to achieve the rain of imbued arrows combo (that I find quite imba for some reasons)
I've just thought that spoil of wars makes sense in the logistic tree. if ever you miss one perk.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 24, 2009 12:06 PM |
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It's not often that I quote myself, but I do it here, because I think it's long overdue that we start collecting the threads rather than spreading us even further.
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We need to strive towards finding some way to make the final decisions.
Here's what I suggest as an approach:
1) We take the skills one by one, and discuss them 'til we're satisfied. I know some perks might be discussed outside their final setting, but overall, I think we need to focus to make a decision.
2) We need to decide what we find most important. For me, it's pretty clear, I prioritize things this way:
a) Balance - this is probably the most important thing for me.
b) Gameplay optimization. With this I mean that we find a solution which makes the most fun game.
c) Logic - the setup should make sense, preferably, but this is to me secondary to above.
d) Other isues like neatness and aesthetics. Since we're not making the game from scratch, sometimes we must compromise to reach the best possible solution.
I'd like to hear your oppinion on the above. I'll be willing to go a long way to reach a common ground, but I think we need to establish what "rules" we're working under less we just talk by each other.
____________
What will happen now?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 24, 2009 01:39 PM |
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Quote:
It's not often that I quote myself, but I do it here, because I think it's long overdue that we start collecting the threads rather than spreading us even further.
Huh? I don't understand, to what post are you responding?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 24, 2009 04:34 PM |
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I refer to the fact that we keep piling up more and more new suggestions without coming closer to a solution.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 24, 2009 04:46 PM |
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Well take this then :
Here is a new development plan, This one is much more conservative compared to the other. I call it a fusion between your ideas and mine + some touches from fauch = means close to final. When judging the skills, boosts for tremors and banish should be taken in consideration
Light magic, Sorcery:
Refined mana is moved to Sorcery (idea, Fauch), Fire resistance is now placed before stormwind, otherwise it wasn't possible to equalize the situation with Shatter Light, Twilight will be a fusion of master of blessings and master of curses (extra prereq), so it makes sense this way. maybe it's better to place stormwind before fire resistance (if it is nerfed to -1 -10%) because fire resistance is quite situational
Destructive:
I figured out it was possible to create a second ID for sap magic, by converting boneward into sap magic 2, now I could move sap magic into shatter destructive to create the required minimum of two perks, to move fiery wrath back to attack. Good for balance because stacking up 20+20+15 magic proof is no longer possible. Since nobody gets both the skill and the shatter.
Logistics:
pathfinding, navigation and snatch make up adventure map branch
marching, and all the others incl teleport assault make up the battle speed branch. One important balance notice: pathfinding is prerequisite for aura of swiftness, so no aura+familiar ground combo for haven and sylvan.
Leadership:
If desired I can move estates (as gambler's luck or something)to the resource branch in luck and tear of asha vision to scouting, then artificial glory will become standard perk. I'm still undecided about this.
Luck:
Balance changes: Soldiers luck is requirement for luck of the barbarian (warrior's luck) and dwarven luck moved to 3th row, so stacking dwarven luck + barbarian is not possible.
Some weak skills are out of the system: chilling bones, soulfire etc. I'm gonna need extra specialization icons anyway.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 24, 2009 05:22 PM |
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Ok, I can pretty much go with that. I have a few questions/comments:
1) Necromancer should have access to both Herald Of Death and Empathy. I know it's not very common, but SHOULD a Necromancer take Leadership, at least give him these two perks which will be usefull. That means push Herald Of Death to position 7 where all the other racial perks are - or better, put all racials on position 6 and push Empathy to position 7, but either works for me.
2) Please take ad notam that Luck distribution is grossly imbalanced. For Sylvan with Nature's Luck, it's completely overkill that they ALSO get Soldier's Luck and Warlock's Luck. Please consider making Elven Luck an alternative for Tear Of Asha Vision (possibly for Sylvan only).
3) I don't get why Teleport Assault is moved to Death March branch. For all other factions than Sylvan, we now have a dead branch after Silent Stalker. Why not keep Teleport Assault on this position? Notice that this makes sense, because Scouting is also prerequisite for Swift Mind and thus becomes priority for Magic heroes taking Logistics.
Oh, and one more thing: Nature's Wrath needs to go instead of Stunning Blow for Sylvan, so that it stacks with Battle Frenzy.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 24, 2009 06:16 PM |
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Quote:
1) Necromancer should have access to both Herald Of Death and Empathy. I know it's not very common, but SHOULD a Necromancer take Leadership, at least give him these two perks which will be usefull. That means push Herald Of Death to position 7 where all the other racial perks are - or better, put all racials on position 6 and push Empathy to position 7, but either works for me.
Where do you get the idea the necromancer can do anything with empathy? please re-read the description of empathy: everytime morale triggers on a creature the hero moves forward on the ATB bar (or backward when negative), morale doesn't trigger on necro creatures.
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Please take ad notam that Luck distribution is grossly imbalanced. For Sylvan with Nature's Luck, it's completely overkill that they ALSO get Soldier's Luck and Warlock's Luck. Please consider making Elven Luck an alternative for Tear Of Asha Vision (possibly for Sylvan only).
Please stop the nature-luck argument, this is strictly going to be a 320x320 XXXL level 33 singleplayer map issue for people who like to smash legions of archdevils, it won't play any role in normal games. Every game with this stupid skill in it is broken, no matter what!!. I'm not going to let this happen, trust me. The 'new rangers' can't do anything with warlock's luck and wardens will greatly lack in attack.
Quote:
3) I don't get why Teleport Assault is moved to Death March branch. For all other factions than Sylvan, we now have a dead branch after Silent Stalker. Why not keep Teleport Assault on this position? Notice that this makes sense, because Scouting is also prerequisite for Swift Mind and thus becomes priority for Magic heroes taking Logistics.
I wasn't actually planning to make scouting a prereq for swift mind, but that was simply because I never thought about it. if swift mind is really that powerful we could do it but personally I found the need to swallow arcane intuiton enough.
let me first explain a few other things:
For me teleport behind stalker doesn't make any sense, I would prefer tear of asha vision and know your enemy. Know your enemy especially because scouting is supposed to be a 'elven thing' and I think they should get a good price from this branch.
I personally prefer teleport assault after power of speed because that makes perfect sense, but you wanted power of speed in attack and teleport in logistics. For me that's OK as long power of speed is not placed BEFORE formations because power of speed is a 'class specific' skill and formations 'generic'. I want to make power of speed/endurance strictly available to magic (and some might) classes that really get great profit from it, not for the group of might classes and magic classes with easy acces to light magic. This is also how Nival originally designed these skills. When I place power of speed+teleport in logistics, inferno can no longer have acces to both power of speed and swift gating, so that's why i was actually quite happy with this solution. I also need last stand and nature wrath (will get other name and other icon) as alternative to the 'power of' skills for the classes that don't get them. I also do not feel much for breaking the stunning blow+excruciating strike combo or make a complete new skillwheel for sylvan and/inferno, because I don't want to break the universal 3x3 system I have been working on for so long. If you think you can solve this whole puzzle in a better way please let me know, but i don't think you will manage it because it took me hours last night.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 24, 2009 07:12 PM |
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Where do you get the idea the necromancer can do anything with empathy? please re-read the description of empathy: everytime morale triggers on a creature the hero moves forward on the ATB bar (or backward when negative), morale doesn't trigger on necro creatures.
Who says Necromancer has only Necropolis creatures in his army?
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Please stop the nature-luck argument, this is strictly going to be a 320x320 XXXL level 33 singleplayer map issue for people who like to smash legions of archdevils, it won't play any role in normal games. Every game with this stupid skill in it is broken, no matter what!!. I'm not going to let this happen, trust me. The 'new rangers' can't do anything with warlock's luck and wardens will greatly lack in attack.
You obviously don't understand the importance of balancing the game. All I can say is, to me incorporating an imbalanced feature in the game where the is absolutely no need for it is just about as clever and just as annoying as conciously ignoring a fault in the programming that will make the game crash every now and then. But I won't bring up this issue again, I'll just edit the final files for my own game when it's done - but now I've warned you at least.
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I wasn't actually planning to make scouting a prereq for swift mind, but that was simply because I never thought about it. if swift mind is really that powerful we could do it but personally I found the need to swallow arcane intuiton enough.
let me first explain a few other things:
For me teleport behind stalker doesn't make any sense, I would prefer tear of asha vision and know your enemy. Know your enemy especially because scouting is supposed to be a 'elven thing' and I think they should get a good price from this branch.
Swift Mind IS that powerful, and Arcane Intuition is not that bad - remember that Arcane Intuition + Scouting is current prerequisite for Swift Mind for magic classes, and many players still ban Swift Mind for being imbalanced. We could make a Sorcery prerequisite instead, such as Arcane Training or Arcane Brilliance, which would make it more accessible to magic heroes.
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I personally prefer teleport assault after power of speed because that makes perfect sense, but you wanted power of speed in attack and teleport in logistics. For me that's OK as long power of speed is not placed BEFORE formations because power of speed is a 'class specific' skill and formations 'generic'. I want to make power of speed/endurance strictly available to magic (and some might) classes that really get great profit from it, not for the group of might classes and magic classes with easy acces to light magic. This is also how Nival originally designed these skills. When I place power of speed+teleport in logistics, inferno can no longer have acces to both power of speed and swift gating, so that's why i was actually quite happy with this solution. I also need last stand and nature wrath (will get other name and other icon) as alternative to the 'power of' skills for the classes that don't get them. I also do not feel much for breaking the stunning blow+excruciating strike combo or make a complete new skillwheel for sylvan and/inferno, because I don't want to break the universal 3x3 system I have been working on for so long. If you think you can solve this whole puzzle in a better way please let me know, but i don't think you will manage it because it took me hours last night.
I don't get your argument on making Power Of Speed / Power Of Endurance available mostly for Magic classes, the skills appeal mostly to might classes, but I won't make a final stand on that part.
My suggestion to solution was simply to swap Nature's Wrath with Stunning Blow for Sylvan, so that factions had Battle Frenzy > Stunning Blow > Excruciating Strike except Sylvan, which has Battle Frenzy > Nature's Wrath > Excruciating Strike.
If you had something else in mind that conflicts with this then just stick to original plan for all I care.
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