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| Thread: Confirmed: goblins are the unit in Heroes V!! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 05, 2010 04:38 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 16:41, 05 Feb 2010.
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well, in a way he isn't so wrong. the 1st time I got level 6 creatures (titans) in Homm2, I thought they were almost invincible, so I attacked a legion of peasants with 2 of them, and got crushed 
even peasants shouldn't be underestimated, especially when you are extremly outnumbered 
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted February 05, 2010 05:59 PM |
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This reminds me of a necro map in Heroes 2 where there were legions of peasants everywhere. 
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted February 06, 2010 01:32 AM |
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& I tried to kill a legion with a bone dragon at the start
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 06, 2010 02:37 AM |
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Quote:
Momo:
As I understand it, points 1 and 2 are to support the idea that the abstraction from reality in the model is so abstractED from reality that it becomes USELESS.
Yes.
As a noob-friendly example, try to solve Zehir's mission one in TotE campaign with 200 gremlins rather than 50 golems. Too bad magnetic golems absorb destructive and as such make warlocks unrelevant, a special that every other unit in the army lacks, and that allows you to destroy entire armies with summon magic while your opponent does nothing effective. I'm sure that from a math standpoint a legion of gremlin is better, but it forces you to keep the whole main army on Zehir rather than making him self-sufficent with just golems, and alters the course of the entire scenario.
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Point 3 is saying that the problem the model is trying to solve DOES NOT EXIST.
It does exist, but it occurs rarely enough to be unrelevant. As you make it sound, seems like everyone gets stuck with just 1 Angel everytime.
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I get you. You don't have to use all-caps, bold AND underline.
If you say so, it looked like you couldn't pay attention otherwise.
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Maybe I ask you this then: do you think this is the right direction to go for HOMM6? Make small units more cost-efficient, but give more abilities to large units? Do you think the use of growth-limitations is working? Or maybe injured units deal reduced damage?
Yes, I think this is good design and should stay this way.
Try to think to your own "militia vs professionals" analogy: true, if a kingdom wants economical efficiency it will rely mostly on militia, but if it wants (and is able to afford) specialized units it will go for professionals paying a much higher price.
And yes, the higher price is fully justified. Now matter how many militia you have, they arent's field medics, snipers, trappers, or whatever. Just like 3000 shieldguards will never be 30 Magma Dragons anyway.
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sylvanllewelyn
Hired Hero
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posted February 07, 2010 03:48 AM |
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if a kingdom wants economical efficiency it will rely mostly on militia, but if it wants (and is able to afford) specialized units it will go for professionals paying a much higher price.
But I am not allowed to rely mostly on militia in HOMM5!! I want 2 00 conscripts, but I cannot, which is what I have been whining about pretty much. According to an arbitrary rule set in the game, I can only train the first 100 people to be conscripts, then the next 50 must be archers, then the next 25 must be footman... you could, of course, train more peasants into archers, but training more conscripts is NOT ALLOWED.
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And yes, the higher price is fully justified. Now matter how many militia you have, they arent's field medics, snipers, trappers, or whatever. Just like 3000 shieldguards will never be 30 Magma Dragons anyway.
That's for the player to decide, not growth limitations. In this game, I am allowed to have 30 Magma dragons and 1000 shieldguards, but I am not allowed to have 3000 shieldguards! I need more GI's not field medics or snipers!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 07, 2010 09:15 AM |
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That maketh no sense, maybe if you were piss poor but why would you intentionally pick the worst solution? Besides the game would not be balanced if it allowed that, a warlock leading fortress and having only shieldguards would be terrifying or think about Ingvar.. Although a normally bad bad idea there are occasions where it introduces imbalance.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 07, 2010 01:12 PM |
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Quote:
But I am not allowed to rely mostly on militia in HOMM5!! I want 2 00 conscripts, but I cannot, which is what I have been whining about pretty much. According to an arbitrary rule set in the game, I can only train the first 100 people to be conscripts, then the next 50 must be archers, then the next 25 must be footman... you could, of course, train more peasants into archers, but training more conscripts is NOT ALLOWED.
Ok. Your complaint is unfounded.
HOMM lies in between strategy games like Starcraft (very dynamic and action-oriented, simple economics) and O-Game (totally static but with huge economical depth). While being quite dynamic, HOMM allows you to develop a complex economy and play with big numbers (with stacks of 1000 or 2000 low tiers while the max numbners of Starcraft are around 100) while still being quite dynamic and action-oriented. As a conseguence, the numbers you can play with are around hundreds (for low-tiers) and tens (for high-tiers).
What has this all to do with our debate? Well, growth limitation isn't a fiction as you seem to think - or rather it is, but it doesn't just apply to low tiers. It's true that a "real" kingdom would be able to hire not 50 militias per week but rather 50.000 or even more, but at the same time you would be able to hire not 30, but 3000 or more professionals. Which means the scale would change but the problem would remain unvaried.
(at the same time, a "real" city would require 70 years to be built like in HOMM, not 7 days)
Long story short, the decision between investing in many non-professional forces or in few professionals is a real choice in war, and the fact that non-professionals are not endless (as are soldiers in general) is a real problem. It's just that the numbers are smallened for the sake of playability.
Besides, you weren't even complaining that HOMM is unrealistic as you seem to be implying now, you were just saying that investing in low-tiers only is the right thing to do and were proven wrong.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 09, 2010 03:18 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 15:21, 09 Feb 2010.
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in another hand, it doesn't mean it's a wrong choice.
some of the toughest duel heroes I built usually had units with massive defense and devastating spells.
that means hydras if you play dungeon, or treants with sylvan, but with fortress it could mean ingvar with shieldguards, or orson with zombies in necropolis.
but of course, in that case, we are not really interested in the abilities of the creatures, their only purpose is to survive long enough to let the hero destroy the opponents with spells.
and if you took necropolis on H2 and H3, on the long run, most of its strength came from skeletons. in H5, I'm not sure, you could make the choice to raise only skeletons, but it may not be the best strategy.
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted February 09, 2010 08:01 PM |
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The way I see it, lower tier units are generally more cost effective because they are also easier to kill. Even with perfect creeping tactics and avoiding the most difficult stacks, you will lose some of them. In fact, you are meant to make the choice to sacrifice a portion of them to seize important ressources earlier, so in most situations you won't end up with enough of them for the numerical advantage to beat another player with a more varied army.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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Bombur
Known Hero
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posted February 09, 2010 08:27 PM |
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it also depends on how much the enemy attacks them.
I remember than in h3 centaurs,gnolls and imps were the most attacked in early games and in big battles
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 10, 2010 02:22 AM |
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it's weird, because they aren't the most threatful units.
against sylvan, a 1st target would rather be elves because they deal lots of damage, or pegasi because they are fast but weak.
in fortress, maybe the dragonfly, weak, but extremly annoying. of course there is the mighty gorgon too, but it usually needs more than a turn to reach the enemy.
against inferno, the most important targets may be the combo efrits / devils, especially since you can't retaliate to devils, so if you don't attack them, they'll just kill everyone.
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