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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Idea: Making it possible to buy/order an unlimited amount of units.
Thread: Idea: Making it possible to buy/order an unlimited amount of units.
ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted February 16, 2010 04:26 PM

Idea: Making it possible to buy/order an unlimited amount of units.

I have always liked the way that you often see low level units have more power pr. money invested than high level units, it kinds of make them worth it even in the late game.

But only for maps where you don't have enough ressources to buy everything, because if you can buy everything, no doubt that the high level units are in most situation the best to buy, because their growth rate gives more power pr. week than the other units.

I think that's loosing an important dimension of the game play. As an example, when I tested pr. ressource invested the level 1 units did most often defeat the level 7 units, but if you now have a series of battles before the eventual clash between the level 1's and the single level 7, you'd experience a loss of level 1's, which you would not of level 7's, resulting in that in the end, the level 7 might have been the better choice.

Imagine if you can set your own rates of buying units, only the n00bs would invest everything in dragons, or elfs, or similar, because it is easy countered, the smart player would make a balanced army. Of course if the game is not balanced in the first place, this suggestion fails.

So it would also add a whole new dimension, not only in the interest of what to invest in to get the most power, but also what army configuration is the most optimal for the expected situations of the rest of the game?

But you don't want to play poor maps, at least I find that boring, no I want maps to be both rich and I want it to contain the dimension of the tactical consideration in how to invest my ressources most optimal, what I want is the ability to buy units unlimited.

Now unlimited might be the wrong term, actually I think what might would work would be like this:
You can't buy the unit before you've the dwelling, when you've the dwelling the unit becomes available in town (maybe even the dwelling gets drawn in town? Oh well sorry now I'm getting off topic).
You can order an unlimited amount of units, which you pay for when you order, but you'll first get on a given day of the week, e.g. day 1, so if you have Azure dragons and you order 3, you'll get one right away, 1 in a week and 1 in another week, because that is the growth speed.

So how does this differ from the way it already is? Well I suggest that you can improve growth speed, like it is now, when you flag more dwellings you get more creatures, but either make something buildable, or by flagging more dwellings, you'll not just end up getting more units on the given day, but when you order your units, you'll get them faster in stead of, which means 1 pr. day, 2 pr. day, etc. depending on how big your kingdom is.

Finally to make it different, let there be an order line indifferent for different creatures, which means you can't just pick dragons + elfs right away, you've to wait for one before getting the other, and then set the speed appropiate, this way you can practically trade dragons for elfs, or vice versa. Of course with balanced growth rates.


This way, you'd have the ressources to order whatever you'd like, but would still have to consider the configuration of your army, the low level units would become much more important I believe, but I want to hear your consideration, thank you.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted April 30, 2014 03:48 PM

Two remarks here.

First, you need to use WoG. Most of your problems can be solved by the Castle Uprading option: you decide wich troops you what to buy for the dozen and you gradually increase their creature growth.

Second, your analize is forgething an important factor, the speed of the creatures present in the army by the end of the turn affects the movement the hero will have next turn.
Since high level creatures usually have more speed, one of the reasons for wich is better to spend the money on them is because you will be able to reach your objectives sooner.


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scbw1234
scbw1234


Hired Hero
posted May 23, 2014 08:15 PM

This sounds like Sid Meier's Civilization

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batoonike
batoonike


Known Hero
posted May 29, 2014 09:44 PM
Edited by batoonike at 21:46, 29 May 2014.

"only the n00bs would invest everything in dragons, or elfs, or similar, because it is easy countered, the smart player would make a balanced army. Of course if the game is not balanced in the first place, this suggestion fails."

The game is not balanced in such way. If you could buy anything as much as you want, everyone would go with 100% 1 unit + maybe 1 of each beneficial unit that gives bonuses. Aka 1 Arch Mage, 5 Master Genies, everything else in Titans or Nagas. Or 2 groups of Arch Angels, nothing else. Pure army is almost always more useful than mixed one, with the exception of a few bonuses and fodder stacks, which should be cheap.

There are hardly any unit counters in Heroes 3. Maybe non-living creatures counter vampire lords but that's about it. In a real game, player with 100% vampire lords will still beat anyone with 100% any other non-living unit, because of the losses vs neutral monsters. If they spend the same amount of money on units.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted May 29, 2014 10:10 PM
Edited by OhforfSake at 22:42, 29 May 2014.

batoonike said:
"only the n00bs would invest everything in dragons, or elfs, or similar, because it is easy countered, the smart player would make a balanced army. Of course if the game is not balanced in the first place, this suggestion fails."

The game is not balanced in such way. If you could buy anything as much as you want, everyone would go with 100% 1 unit + maybe 1 of each beneficial unit that gives bonuses.


1) Mass Dmg. Spell followed by Blind. Your single stack may be stronger than any splitted stack, but it can still only target one unit at a time. Lower level units are more powerful / resource invested, but have drawbacks in the form of mobility (speed, non-flying) and survivability (how many units continues on to the next battle).

2) It was meant for the final battle, not for creeping, hence survivability may not be an issue. But unit loss from creeping shouldn't be game breaking anyway, VL's makes it easy, but many units combinations can do it as well with very little fodder.

3) This was written more than 4 years ago. I don't really care about this idea anymore.

Edit: A single stack of VL's is of course strong, but in this case maybe not as strong as one might think. While they've the nice immunities that follows the undead class, such as against blind which would make many other single stacks useless, V-lords are the most expensive 4th level unit, more expensive than some of the weaker fifth level units. For V-Lords to work well, their main concern is to maximize their damage against high health targets. Large stacks of low level units have tons of hit points and low defense, hence V-Lords can easily get hit points back against them. Higher level units however have less hit points / ressource than low level units, but a lot more defense, since V-Lords have the lowest damage stat for their level, they may not gain the same advantage from resource based growth as e.g. Ogre Magi's would.

Finally, single stack of V-Lords may not have much advantage against e.g. equally splitted archer class units or any non-retaliation unit, but that depends a lot on unit count and unit type.

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batoonike
batoonike


Known Hero
posted May 30, 2014 10:11 PM

OhforfSake said:

1) Mass Dmg. Spell followed by Blind. Your single stack may be stronger than any splitted stack, but it can still only target one unit at a time. Lower level units are more powerful / resource invested, but have drawbacks in the form of mobility (speed, non-flying) and survivability (how many units continues on to the next battle).



For most towns that would be level 6, 7 or maybe 5 but definitely nothing slow or vulnerable to such exploits. I'm talking about 100% Phoenix, Arch Angel, Efreet Sultan, Black Dragon, Golden dragon etc. For most towns it wouldn't make sense to buy anything else, other than maybe fodder and single stacks with useful special ability. Or 2 stacks, equally splitted, to avoid being easily blinded. Or 7 stacks of the same unit type, in case you really start blinding everyone out of the games. The point is, that even if you make 7 stacks, each town still has 1-2 unit types which are best choice for mass buying and other unit types would go unused.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted May 31, 2014 12:19 AM

Then try to test stack power / ressource yourself...

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batoonike
batoonike


Known Hero
posted June 05, 2014 11:04 PM

Ok I believe that buying lower level units may be more efficient if we consider same amount of resources and only 1 battle. My main point was that in any case each town has 1-2 unit types that would be bought and everything else is ignored. If the low level unit is more cost-efficient then you take 99-100% that unit, if neccessary split it up in stacks but still the same unit type.

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figva
figva

Tavern Dweller
posted June 06, 2014 08:35 AM

What about map editor,it doesnt allow more than 9999 troops it should allow unlimited amount of troops.
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 06, 2014 11:15 AM
Edited by Ebonheart at 11:19, 06 Jun 2014.

figva said:
What about map editor,it doesnt allow more than 9999 troops it should allow unlimited amount of troops.


I have only touched the 9999 cap two times during my entire HoMM3 gameplay. One time I was using a bot program to roll time while the enemy was trapped (key to victory scenario) and the other when I started to experiment with the map editor.

I honestly doubt you would ever need a 'unlimited' amount of units.

On topic: Your idea is interesting but I reckon it would require a lot of balance and limits.

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Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted June 06, 2014 11:58 AM

9999 is not an actual limit, at least not in WoG or Shadow of Death. Even by means of editor you can get bigger army, though it requires some kind of adding units to slots. The problem is, after some time(32k+) your units will go negative in number if you change their slot. Such numbers are obtainable while playing on single player RGP-style maps, at least sometimes.
And as far as units to cost idea, I fear that vampire lords would be the ultimate winning strategy here, I see no way to counter them, except maybe playing Tower(golems, gargoyles), necro or Conflux.

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