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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Please Vote For Me
Thread: Please Vote For Me This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted April 09, 2010 09:19 PM

Poll Question:
Please Vote For Me



Please Vote for Me is a 2007 documentary film about elections for class monitor in a Chinese elementary school. It deals with democratic principles, interpersonal relationships and human nature.

Here's the official site, which includes more info and a trailer. The entire film is available on YouTube as well (about an hour divided into 5 parts).

The documentary deals with very serious and deep topics, but in a charming and funny way. I'd like to know what you thought but please don't comment before you've seen it, OK?

Finally, I'd like to ask you to vote for one of the three candidates:

Responses:
Cheng Cheng
Xu Xaiofei
Luo Lei
nobody
 View Results!

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friendofgunnar
friendofgunnar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
posted April 10, 2010 06:14 AM
Edited by friendofgunnar at 00:38, 21 Apr 2010.

Cheng Cheng is obviously a natural politician, so there's no way I'd vote for him. LuoLei's future is that of an evil corporate overlord and the last thing I want to do is help him along that path, so he's out too.  I guess that leaves Xu Xiaufei.

I've always thought that China was evolving towards democracy, it's interesting to see something that confirms it.  I wonder though how much school elections really contribute to a knowledge about how democracy really functions.  I went through that process in grade school and looking back it was more play pretend than anything else. I lost btw. :sob:


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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted April 10, 2010 07:25 AM

i have watched that documentary... it shows the same mechanism that in adults world are happenning... I remember that the fat kid has won....
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bixie
bixie


Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
posted April 10, 2010 09:23 AM

I think this is a great little documentary...

although I would, as I am overtly biased towards documentaries.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 10, 2010 01:19 PM

Well, democracy? I think this is a good example of why democracy can fail, and why it is a part of the "it seemed like a better idea at the time".
You got a bunch of bickering people with little real power attempting to tear each other apart with words, the end result may or may not be bad.
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ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted April 10, 2010 01:24 PM

Quote:
I guess that leaves Xu Xiaufei.

Sorry if I miss something (didn't click the link), but that I'd say is the exact wrong reason to vote for anyone!

In my opinion, if no one satisfies the values you want through, either you don't vote, or you create your own party so people can vote for the values you stand for.

Somehow, it reminds me awful lot of the simpsons episode where they're left with voting for two aliens who each represented both parties and would enslave human kind.
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted April 10, 2010 03:25 PM

Okay Class, lets vote!

Candidate A : Rich support group. Bribery.

Candidate B : Manipulation, Gossip.

Candidate C : Fair Play.

... Candidate C is out of the game pretty soon after Candidate B:s Attack Machine starts rolling. Not even really possible to bring forth your ideas. If only Candidate B were supported by some wealthy enterprises or something of that type, he could win (and become the puppet for those who bought him to the job)

Politics can't be got into without money and powerful support groups. Good news for the companies/lobbyists. Hurray! :/

...

In this case I voted for Luo Lei nevertheless. I was impressed by the thing he said early that he doesn't want to campaign because people should vote for whoever they want and think for themselves. Very smart for a boy of that age.
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted April 10, 2010 06:59 PM

Mudslinging, false promises, bribery, and intimidation. That's politics.

Deomocracy is a terrible political systme but it is better than all the others.
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted April 10, 2010 09:46 PM
Edited by Vlaad at 23:01, 10 Apr 2010.

Quote:
I've always thought that China was evolving towards democracy, it's interesting to see something that confirms it.
I grew up in a communist country and sometimes I have a feeling people in the West think all communist nations are the same, similar to North Korea or something. I had a wonderful childhood and my parents have fond memories of the period too. Needless to say, freedom was limited but other things were granted: peace, gender and national equality, free health care and education. Money wise it was bad but not worse than nowadays when the country is a pro-Western democracy. Oh, and there were elections (as early as elementary school), it's just that you voted for people, not parties. I understand it's similar in China, but I didn't want to include disclaimer in the opening post lest the topic slip into bashing China. So I'd like to ask anyone interested in that topic to start a new thread. I think the film deals with issues that are not China-specific and the comments so far have confirmed it.
Quote:
I went through that process in grade school and looking back it was more play pretend than anything else. I lost btw :sob:
LOL I won once and lost the reelection. Actually it was quite a relief because it sucked.

Anyway...

Xu is in the lead here on HC.

I've got two questions:

If you voted for her, did you do it only because you disliked the other two candidates? Do you think she would do a good job?

Suppose you were not aware of the smear campaign: who would you vote for and why?
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 11, 2010 02:53 AM

Quote:
Deomocracy is a terrible political systme but it is better than all the others.



I'm just interested, but what would the perfect political system be than?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted April 11, 2010 03:09 AM

Quote:
I'm just interested, but what would the perfect political system be than?

In my opinion. One that gives freedom to the limit of not limiting the freedom of others, where this limit is decided through the amount of ressources and technology available. So basicly maximize freedom in those two aspects (possible and in regard to life). I'll call it the purpose later.
If I should suggest anything different of the current way, I'd suggest people would be voting for the changes and not the people behind the changes and these were made from the basis of the purpose (my opinion) to avoid abuse (like what happened in switzerland with those muslim towers).
Then let the people who makes the ideas come true get paid for their effectivity in doing so.

So ideas in stead of representants/people, I suppose.
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Gauldoth_IV
Gauldoth_IV


Adventuring Hero
nobody
posted April 11, 2010 04:18 AM

That's the China, everything came to there will be changed so much, the company culture(even a foreign company),the policy, the institution etc. So the democracy as well.
The video really make me think about my primary school time, but at that time, the "monitor" who was set in a class by only the Chinese teachers was already decided by the teachers themselves. The vote was just from recently, but at that time, I was in uni, meanwhile, that time I don't care who is the monitor and how different this "monitor" with the monitor in MGS 2 which I shoot at.
By the way, I don't like all three of them, the girl was easy to cry, a standard good student, maybe always tell teacher something about your little mistake; Cheng Cheng who is the fatest boy is a typical student with a powerful/rich family in that city/province that make me suck; And another little boy, he just has not a "monitor" face, looks may be smart, but just a guy who seeking for the power. Anyway, I don't like the monitor itself.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 11, 2010 04:38 AM

Quote:
I'm just interested, but what would the perfect political system be than?
The best form of government is a benevolent dictator who supports individual freedoms and rights, and does not let anyone get in power who would interfere with those rights (although he lets people express their opposition freely). Unfortunately, such a dictator will never exist.
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted April 11, 2010 05:03 AM

You boys have been watching too much Star Trek. Go see the film, then let's discuss the real world. Mvass, I want to know who you've voted for.

Gauldoth_IV raised an interesting point:
Quote:
I don't like the monitor itself.
What if everybody else voted but you?

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 11, 2010 05:20 AM

It's an hour-long movie. I haven't actually watched it yet.
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted April 11, 2010 05:40 AM

Quote:
It's an hour-long movie. I haven't actually watched it yet.
I know, that's why I said go see it. C'mon, this is mandatory homework. You also might be interested in other related documentaries. The series is called "Why Democracy?".

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ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted April 11, 2010 11:26 AM

Mvass wrote:
Quote:
The best form of government is a benevolent dictator

Under the impression of that dictator means single leader and person with unquestionable power. I wonder about the following:

What makes you support the idea of a leader/why is a leader required?
I'd think it would be better to have a system which has an unquestionable purpose, where the purpose is exactly what you write:
Mvass wrote:
Quote:
supports individual freedoms and rights

in stead of a person who's unquestionable in decisions (sorry if I misunderstood the term dictator).

I think, the most optimal change in a system in regards to said purpose, can be mathmatically derived, which gives an objective measure that doesn't depend on the subjective decision of a leader who might mean the best, when several options are then equally good, one can let the people decide as which idea to go for, as long as there's no such thing as an idea that limits freedom (which should not be possible, due ot the purpose in the first place).
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Living time backwards

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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 11, 2010 12:19 PM

OhforfSake: The problem with that system is that it requires the people to be able to see sacrifices as beneficial. And that the lawmakers could attempt to get in unserious laws that would have been passed regardless.
I think it got a good chance of working out, compared to the current system.

mvassilev: The beneficiary dictator is that the system would got a high chance of collapsing when the leader changes, but besides that it is one of the better systems. The chance would be a lot less in a society where where the people understood the idea, ands support it... But the chance is collapse is always there.


Who i voted for: None, all the choices was bad the the difference would not be too much. We basically had the preelected candidate there, a political, and a normal citizen. The difference would not have been big enough regardless of the choice.
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ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted April 11, 2010 01:29 PM
Edited by ohforfsake at 13:40, 11 Apr 2010.

I have tried to colour code my text, because I find it long and clumsy. Green is me being on topic, bolded text is me trying to be fun and blue is me trying to include stuff from other topics to make sense in what I say in the green text.

I have now watched the film. The purpose is to elect a class monitor, a problem of this is that they never define the duties of a class monitor.

Another problem is, I am now eternally tormented by pictures of little chinese boys in their underpants.

I am not familiar with the concept of a class monitor as I've never experienced it.
If there are people of chinese schools and under the assumptions that there are a general commoness about this subject in different schools, could you please tell if this a correct description of the duties (function) of a class monitor?:

Quote:
  1.   If you are a class monitor, your duties are to help keep your fellow students in line during the school day, help your teacher maintain a neat and organized classroom and assist the teacher with special projects. Class monitors may volunteer for the position or may be elected. The term "class monitor" is used primarily in Asia and Europe. Schools in the United States may prefer the term "hall monitor" and primarily use monitors to ensure that students get to class safely.
     Set Up
  2. You may be asked to help set up the classroom just as the teacher wants it, moving any chairs or tables as needed. Occasionally, you may need to sweep the classroom and wipe the desks and chairs down with a rag or dust cloth.
     Help New Students
  3. You may serve as the liaison for new students, helping to acclimate them to the layout of the school and the school's social climate. You may also take work to sick or injured students who have missed class.
     Lists
  4. You may help create a class telephone and email list and may use an attendance list to take daily attendance. You may also help recruit people into elective classes if there are empty spaces.
     Discipline
  5. As class monitor, you may also help the teacher promote discipline and peace in the classroom. You may be given the power to send students to the principal, to detention or to another authority within the school when students misbehave. You will also be given a school policy book so that you can help enforce the school rules.


From - http://www.ehow.com/list_5949788_duties-class-monitor.html

The rest of my text is under the assumptions the above link fully describes the function of a class monitor.

As I see it, class monitor is a job were you want the most efficient person in doing the above, not a job where you get power to change something for the other kids. Therefore, using democracy here seems misunderstood, in my opinion.

I'll try to compare:
Democracy on a job like this:
Result: You get a limited amount of persons (less than if it was a job interview, I believe) and the people who vote for it, does not have to be qualified for hiring (i.e. might be easy to manipulate).


An example of this manipulation, I think, is quickly seen in the last part where they each give a speech. First Cheng, then Xu, and finally Lou, and as they try to get their voters feelings for them (as they don't really argument in a rational way of why exactly they'd be a good candidate, i.e. showing examples directly connected to the duties of a class monitor as defined above) it ends up with the last one who gets a shot at them is also the one who wins and the second get the second most votes, etc.

Likewise, the problem of less people to choose between, means you got a problem if no one is useable for the job. The boy who hits the kids (if it is true) seems like a bad choice, unless it's the school policy to hit kids (which I disagree with as a good policy), the kid who wants to control people would probably be a better choice, but he wants the job for the wrong reasons, in my opinion and finally there's the girl who might, might not, be able to live up to the functions of her job, depending if the classmates will do as she tells. It is a big problem that's all the information one gets and not how they'll perform their duties as class monitor, they speak to general, and when it's about a job with a clear function, I want specific details of why they should get the job.


In a job interview:
Result: You've probably many more candidates, so you won't end up with having to choose a bad one no matter what, and you get to choose them for how well they perform their duties and not for how goot they're at persuading people who aren't qualified for choosing said person.

On the other hand, had these kid had the opportunity to change the rules around the school, democracy would be the right way, in my opinion, simply because, in a job interview, no one can be qualified, as everyone have their own idea of how things should be, and in principle, it'd just be that person who'd get to decide (i.e. pointless and oppressive).


Now with all that said [Comparision of where democracy fits in and where it doesn't, done], that's why I think a democratic process is not suited for this type of thing.
I'd like to note that if I were a kid on that school, I'd disagree with the system of having a class monitor in the first place, i.e. someone who have the ability to tell me what to do.
It makes little sense to vote for people, if you don't have any other rights in the first place, and that's a problem, in my opinion, that goes through the entire world, where in past history, black people were the slaves, today kids are. We claim we do it through love, and I'm certain the slave dealers did something likewise (a slave will have a better life as a slave than as a free man, I believe I've heard), the problem is, it's not okay to remove the choice.
I, though I'm not a parent, have an idea of that we somewhat deliberately keep our kids in an immature state of mind for much longer than what is needed, because we like it that way, and honestly, I don't think it's right.


So all in all, the conclusion is, for me, it'd not matter if they'd hire a good or a bad class monitor and how they'd do it, I disagree with the concept of a class monitor in the first place and therefore would not take part of a vote, which in my opinion is a waste of everyone times, as they should just have some qualified people to find the one who lives best up to the function (duties) of a class monitor.

Quote:
And that the lawmakers could attempt to get in unserious laws that would have been passed regardless.



[Note: My assumption of the possibility of a mathematical system that can derive how to maximize freedom may be naive, but under the assumption of there's such a system, my reply follows:]
In a system where you only make change to maximize freedom, unserious (I understand unserious as unnecessary) laws would impossible to get up for a vote in the first place.

About that people would have to sacrifice for what's better, yes I agree, but I think that forming the wording of the ideas as general as possible (so no single group, except the group of everyone, is targeted) would probably maybe some problems in that regard.

Edit: I think I coloured it wrong, now I think it's better.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 11, 2010 09:20 PM

Ohforf:
Quote:
What makes you support the idea of a leader/why is a leader required?
Because in a democratic system, there is bound to be a lot of argument and even occasional deadlock, and certainly politicians have to compromise to come to power. A supreme dictator wouldn't have to do any of that. (Obviously, these things are all great when the minority is right, but on the rare occasions that the majority is right, then it's annoying.)

Quote:
as long as there's no such thing as an idea that limits freedom
The problem is, in a democracy, you have tyranny of the majority, and people vote for things that make them less free.

del_diablo:
I should have said, "immortal benevolent dictator".
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