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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 30, 2010 10:54 PM |
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Unit Promotions: An alternative upgrade system
Ok, so I've only been working with this thing about a year and a half (admittedly, on and off, and more off than on, but still ...), so I finally got things put down in a way that the pieces actually seem to fit together.
So, the idea for this is an alternative unit system - called Unit promotions - which is basically a merging of Civilization 4 promotions with WOG unit upgrades.
Basic principles
So, basic point is that units gain levels like the Hero, and you can pick to develop different skill lines on level-up to specilize the unit.
Overall, there are two types of skills:
1) Unit type skills: All units belong to and start with (at least) one of the following skill groups:
- Melee
- Ranged
- Mounted
- Flying
- Caster
- Siege
2) Development skills: There are two lines of development, namely:
- Offensive
- Defensive
From start, an (unupgraded) unit belongs to neither of these groups. Once a unit is developed through one of these, the other is excluded.
Development options
Each of the skill groups (the 6 combat type groups and the 2 development groups) each have a number of development options (see post below) that will allow you to pick a focus for your unit. Some skills have requirements, but you're free to pick any available skill (it's not chance pop-up like with hero skills).
You cannot learn a new combat type skill on leveling up - thus, you can't develop Ranged Attack unless your unit has this skill from the beginning - you can't change a Melee unit into a Ranged unit or a Flyer on leveling up. Exception to this is through dwelling upgrades - more on this below. However, some units can belong to several groups (Ranged + Caster, Melee + Ranged, etc.) from start.
You are free to choose either Offensive path or Deffensive path for your unit - however, once you choose either, the other is excluded. You can't be specialized in both.
Dwelling upgrades in town
So, will this mean the end of normal upgrades in town? No, there will still be normal upgrades in town. Basic building will give you a level 0 creature, upgraded creature will give you a level 5 creature (exact level may be susceptible to change).
Alternate upgrades
As with TotE, there will be Alternate Upgrades. Thus, when you buy from the upgraded dwelling, you can choose to have either an Offensive upgrade or a Deffensive Upgrade. Let me make an example:
Haven Baracks: Recruit level 0 Swordsmen.
Haven upgraded Barack: Recruit level 5 Swordsman, either:
- Vindicator: Has Offence III, Assault II, Zeal *or*
- Squire: Has Defence III, Archer specialist, Counterstrike I, Shield Other
Notice how one alternative is Offensive, and one is Deffensive.
Multiple Upgrades
There might even be multiple building upgrades in towns. For instance:
- Basic: Level 0 creature
- First pgrade: Level 5 creature
- Second upgrade: Level 10 creature
Unique skills and town upgrades
Units can also have unique skills, like in Heroes 5. Thus, Zeal could be a unique skill for Vindicator and Shield Other a unique (or semi-unique, other units might have it, but it's not in the common tree) skill for Squire. If you buy your Vindicator or Squire in town, it comes with this skill.
Can level 0 units not learn individual skills of upgrades? Yes they can. Notice how upgraded titles correspond to certain skill combinations. Thus, a Vindicator is a Swordsman that has learn Offence III and Assault II. Once you upgrade your Swordsman to this skill combination, he will gain the title of Vindicator and also gain the unique skills that goes with this title (i.e. he gains Zeal for free). This will favor certain development paths for each unit.
Stack merging
Oh noes, what about stack merging, how is that gonna work, if I have a level 4 swordsman and a level 7 swordsman, how can I merge them?
As long as stack is developed along the same line (i.e. both are offensive or both are deffensive) they can be merged.
So, how does this work, if they are different levels? Imagine we merge a level 4 and a level 7 stack. There will be two options:
- Keep experience: If you choose this option, unit will werk as if it is all of the lowest level, i.e. level 4. However, level 7 part of stack already has level 7 experience, thus you'll only need experience for the level 4 part until they reach level 7. This means stack will gain levels faster. This option will be best if stacks are close to each other in levels or if low-level stack is large in numbers compared to high-level stack.
- Share experience: If you choose this option, XP will be transfered from high-level units to low level units until they have same XP. However, you'll only transfer on a 2:1 basis, which means high-level will loose twice the XP low level gains. Thus, if you merge a very small low-level stack (say: new city recruits) into a large stack, this will be a good option - not if stacks are comarable in size.
Buy why!?
More custumization means more fun. If you know you're facing up against an army of shooters, develop your units with anti-ranged perks. If a stack is only going to be sitting in the Garrison defending a town, develop Defence and Garrison skills.
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What will happen now?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 30, 2010 10:54 PM |
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The skill groups
This is still kind of work-in-progress, so not all skills are fully developed, and only a small number of icons are done.
The skill overviews look like this one, and I'll briefly explain it. Skill descriptions are below:
This is the Offence tree. Top row is Offence I, II, III, IV, and V. These are the core skills.
Below comes a number of different specilizations within Offence: Assault, Focus, Raider, Unit specilization, and Elemental. Each of these are free from each other, but depend on Offence, hence the offset: You need Offence I to learn skills in second column, Offence II to learn skills in third column, etc.
To give a couple of examples:
- Assault I requires Offence I.
- Assault II requires Offence II and Assault I.
- Raider I requires Offence II (hence the additional offset).
- Unit specilization requires Offence III.
Offence development path
Choosing Offence I excludes Defence I.
Tree - see above.
Skills:
Defence development path
Choosing Defence I excludes Ofence I.
Skills:
Melee combat type
Unit can only develop this tree if it starts with Melee I.
Skills:
Ranged combat type
Unit can only develop this tree if it starts with Ranged I.
Skills:
Mounted combat type
Unit can only develop this tree if it starts with Mounted I.
Skills:
Flying combat type
Unit can only develop this tree if it starts with Flyer I.
Skills:
Caster combat type
Unit can only develop this tree if it starts with Caster I.
Skills:
Siege combat type
Unit can only develop this tree if it starts with Siege I.
Skills to come.
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What will happen now?
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted July 31, 2010 12:17 AM |
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this is soo nice!!! may one contribute suggestions f.i. for units?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 31, 2010 12:44 AM |
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I'm confused, are unit type paths separate from the basic offence/defence paths?
Also, what happens if your level 7 guys gain another level before your level 4 guys make level 7?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 31, 2010 08:50 AM |
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Quote:
this is soo nice!!! may one contribute suggestions f.i. for units?
Please, go ahead, I've not even come as far as implementing this for units, so I'd deffinitely need a lot of input and make changes along the way as I proceed. 
Quote:
I'm confused, are unit type paths separate from the basic offence/defence paths?
They are simply different options. Let me try to explain by giving an example:
Imagine you have a level 0 Swordsman - he may start with Melee I as his only skill. So, when he reaches level 1, he'll have the following options:
- Offence I
- Defence I
- Melee II
- Pierce I
So, image you select Offence I. Now, when he reaches level 2, you'll have the following options:
- Offence II
- Assault I
- Focus I
- Melee II
- Pierce I
For now, Defence I is excluded by picking Offence I. That might change, I haven't really considered if "re-upgrade" will be possible like in TotE.
Thus, there is no technical difference between the unit type paths and the offensive path - except that Offence/Defence is open for everybody at the beginning, whereas the unit type paths require that you already have this type in order to develop it further.
Quote:
Also, what happens if your level 7 guys gain another level before your level 4 guys make level 7?
They won't. All experience the group gains will go to the level 4 guys until they're even level. Thus, you loose the benefits of your level 7 guys for a while, but the low levels will level faster.
This also means that merging a huge group of high level units with a huge group of low level unit will be tactically bad, as it will cost you either in XP transfer or in wait time.
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What will happen now?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 31, 2010 01:38 PM |
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Ah, fair enough. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted August 01, 2010 07:50 PM |
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Edited by Jiriki9 at 22:31, 01 Aug 2010.
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I'm back..with an idea flash^^
...it occured to me that magical resistance should nto be only with the casters!!! ...yet swheere shall it be? it could go with defense - but is that REALLY fitting?
Then it occured to me there could be a third exclusive option with offense&defense:
Adventurous:
The Adventureous-Skill enhances the Exp the unit gains and therefore enhances it's leveling-up - yet for the cost of neither enhancing offensive nor defensive battle strategies.
-Luck enhancement ("using opportunities")
-Terrain Specialization
-Magic Resistance
(-Exp growth enhancement?)
(-the chance to develop sub-skills from other tyes than the units, so a melee could learn flyer by that?)
Also I have a suggestion for unit special abilities. You, f.e. mentioned ZEAL as a special ability with a city-upgraded unit. And that such abilities only come with the certain combiantion. I suggest that a footman could allready learn that ability, or others: each unit would have 4/5 (5 with adventuring) abilities possible totally, and 3 in a game. It works liek this: 1 special s in every tree for the unit, except 2 in their type. So each unit has 1 specials in offense, defense (, adventuring) and 2 in their type (melee, caster, etc.). Yet since only one of offense, defense(&adventuring) can be chosen, it can max have available...also, it can at max have lvl./5 special abilities, always rounded down, so a lvl 9 unit could only have 1 special ability.
What are you saying to that, alci?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 02, 2010 01:36 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 01:38, 02 Aug 2010.
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adventurous sounds like something that would give abilities usable only on the adventure map.
like the no desert penalty from H3 nomads I think
spying from H3 thieves
stealth from H4 thieves
a mire caster (H4)
a unit with castle gates?
I don't know if it's a good idea that caster can learn spells.
you could just have some ways to increase their masteries, spell power and knowledge
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 02, 2010 10:20 AM |
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Quote:
I'm back..with an idea flash^^
...it occured to me that magical resistance should nto be only with the casters!!! ...yet swheere shall it be? it could go with defense - but is that REALLY fitting?
Then it occured to me there could be a third exclusive option with offense&defense:
Adventurous:
The Adventureous-Skill enhances the Exp the unit gains and therefore enhances it's leveling-up - yet for the cost of neither enhancing offensive nor defensive battle strategies.
-Luck enhancement ("using opportunities")
-Terrain Specialization
-Magic Resistance
(-Exp growth enhancement?)
(-the chance to develop sub-skills from other tyes than the units, so a melee could learn flyer by that?)
Also I have a suggestion for unit special abilities. You, f.e. mentioned ZEAL as a special ability with a city-upgraded unit. And that such abilities only come with the certain combiantion. I suggest that a footman could allready learn that ability, or others: each unit would have 4/5 (5 with adventuring) abilities possible totally, and 3 in a game. It works liek this: 1 special s in every tree for the unit, except 2 in their type. So each unit has 1 specials in offense, defense (, adventuring) and 2 in their type (melee, caster, etc.). Yet since only one of offense, defense(&adventuring) can be chosen, it can max have available...also, it can at max have lvl./5 special abilities, always rounded down, so a lvl 9 unit could only have 1 special ability.
What are you saying to that, alci?
Great minds think alike.  I had the exact same thought, I want to make a category of "common" abilities - which would exactly accomodate magic resistance among others. I'm away on holiday now, however, so apart from checking in now, not much will be done.
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What will happen now?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 02, 2010 10:40 AM |
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Oh ****, that's a lot of reading material and looks like I'm behind schedule already. Do I really have to read it all?
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted August 02, 2010 02:47 PM |
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Seconding that. Also I have a cripling fear of flow-charts and this page makes that act up badly.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted August 02, 2010 03:18 PM |
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Edited by Jiriki9 at 19:23, 02 Aug 2010.
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...okay, I'm now doing quite some work...
First, for the following, I claim, that there'll be the "Common"/"Adventure"-Skill set, jsut called common from now on, and has the subskills: "Magic resistance", "Using opportunities", Terrain specialization, & Bravery.
For Melee, I assume the (additional) abilitys "Slayer" (I-III, additional damage against large units), "Berserk" (I-V, can disobey orders, sacrifices defense for MUCH damage, can't be taken with Discipline!), "Discipline" (I-V, decreases chance of many enemy interceptions with this units, sacrifices initiative for Defense) and "Bind" (I-III, binds enemy units, first only ranged, later also others, from attacking other units than this).
For Ranged, I assume the (additional) abilitys "Ranged Retaliation" (I-V, allows to strike back on ranged attacks, first with decreased power, than stronger and stronger), "Long Ranged" (I-III, decreases penalty for long ranges) and "Secure" (I-III, allows to aim at a target/area, shooting immediately when target moves/enemy moves into area. On III, enemy doesn't know who/where's secured).
For Mounted, I assume the (additional) abilitys "Overwhelm" (I-III, chance that small units loose their(one) retaliation and are dealt more damage), "Jump" (I-III, chance overcome small obstacles if a certain number of tiles were covered before) and "Charge" (I-V, enemy units have a chance to loose ini,their next turn and/or are thrown back one/some tile/s (in the latter case loosing their retaliation))
For Flying, I assume the (additional) abilitys "Soar away" (I-V, allows some of this unit to survive even if the hero flees, and, on high lvls, take some small units with them even.), "Carry" (I-III, allows to carry friendly units over the battlefield without those loosing their ini, etc.) and ?
For Casters, I assume the (additional) abilitys "Enforce Magic" (I-III, breaking magic resistance, "Mysticism" (I - V, enhances mana & gives mana reg. on the hier levels), "Magic Power" (I-III, ehancing spell power) and "Lasting Spells" (I-III, enhancing spell duration).
For Siege units, I don't assume abilities, and I won't add Siege units in this lineup (sorry, hope it will be good nevertheless)
I'll now give a proposition on some H6-factions, with 7 tiers&SOME alternates&multiple upgrades, with the skill set of the upgrades.
> means an upgrade of the base unit
>> means an upgrade of the upgraded unit
behind the semicolon are unique specials
sometimes units will have abilities without presequisites. this means they have aexactly the single ability and usually wn't be able to develop further in this tree (f.e. Charge at behemoth)
Bastion:
The Classical Barbarian/Orc Town.
1: Goblin - Melee I
> Dart Thrower (L5): Melee I, Defense I, Evade I, Ranged I, Ranged Retaliation I, Poison Darts
> Goblin Marauder (L5): Melee III, Berserk III;
>> Goblin Warrior (L10): Melee V, Berserk IV, Bind II; Special?
> Goblin Scout (L5): Melee I, Common I, Terrain Specialization (Badlands), Using Opportunity I, Scout
2: Orc Warrior - Melee I
> Axe Thrower (L5): Melee II, Ranged II, Ranged Retaliation I
> Orc Hordeman (L5): Melee I, Master I, Offence II, Assault II
> Orc Berserker (L5): Melee III, Berserk II, Blood Rage;
3: Wolf Rider - Melee I, Mounted I, Offence I, Assault I; Large;
> Wolf Raider (L5): Melee I, Mounted II, Jump I, Rush I, Offence II, Assault II, Raider I;
> Wolf Knight (L5): Melee II, Bind I, Mounted I, Overwhelm I, Offence II, Assault II;
4: Shaman - Caster I, Mysticism I
> Nature Caller (L5): Caster III, Mysticism III, lasting Spells I;
>> Earth Shaman (L10): Caster IV, Mysticism IV, Lasting Spells III, Defense I, Earth Mastery;
>> Wind Shaman (L10): Caster IV, Mysticism III, Lasting Spells I, Flyer III, Wind Mastery;
> War Caller (L5): Caster III, Mysticism I, Enforce Magic I, Offense I, Assault I;
>> Fire Shaman (L10): Caster V, Mysticism I, Enforce Magic I, Magic Power I, Offense I, Assault I, Fire Mastery II;
>> Blood Shaman (L10): Caster III, Mysticism I, Enforce Magic II, Offense III, Assault III;
5: Troll - Melee I; Regeneration, Trollskin;
> Bridge Troll (L5): Melee II, Ranged II, Defence II, Counter I; Regeneration, Trollskin, Throw Rock;
> Hill Troll (L5): Melee IV, Pierce II; Regeneration, Trollskin;
>> Mountain Troll (L10): Melee IV, Pierce II, Common III, Magic Resistance II; Regeneration, Trollskin;
>> Stone Troll (L10): Melee V, Pierce III, Berserk II; Regeneration, Stone Skin;
6: Ogre - Melee I, Magic Resistance I; Large;
> Ogre Mage (L5): Melee I, Caster II, Mysticism I, Lasting Spells I, magic Resistance II; Large;
> Ogre Warlord (L10): Melee III, Master II, Offence IV, Focus II; Fearless, Large;
7: Behemoth - Melee I; Carnivore, Charge, Large;
> Unchained Behemoth (L5): Melee III, Berserk III; Carnivore, Charge, Large;
Stronghold:
The Dwarves, honourable Warriors, and their allies. technology. Runes.
1: Miner - Melee I; Magic Resistance I, Mining;
> Tunneler (L5): Melee IV, Bind II; Magic Resistance I, Mining, Tunnel;
>> Siege Tunneler (L10): Melee V, Bind III, Offence II, Siege Specialist; Magic Resistance I, Mining, Siege Tunnel;
>> Tunnel Blaster (L10): Melee IV, Bind II, Common III, Using Opportunities II; Magic Resistance I, Mining, Blast Tunnel;
> Mineur (L5): Melee I, Defense III, Counter II; Magic Resistance I, Mining, Lay Mine(3x);
2: Hawk Rider - Flying I, Mounted I;
> Falcon Scout (L5): Flying III, Soar Away I, Common II, Mounted I; Scout;
> Hawk Warrior (L5): Flying II, Mounted III, Rush II, Melee I;
>> Eagle Knight (L10): Flying II, Mounted III, Rush II, Melee I, Offence III, Focus II;
>> Sky Defender (L10): Flying II, Dive II, Mounted III, Rush II, Melee I, Defence II, Evade I;
3: ?
> Mountain Guard
> Dwarven Berserker
4: Crossbowyer - Ranged I; Piercing Shot;
> Rifleman (L5):
> Dwarven Ranger (L5): Ranged I, Melee I, Common III, Mountain Specialization, Using Opportunities I;
5: Hill Giant
6: Runeformer
> Rune Sage
> Rune Warrior
7: Colossus
that shall be it for now, more to come
...as you can see, the upgrade often opens new options like opening up completely new creature type (ranged<>melee, f.e.)
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vitorsly
Known Hero
Joker!
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posted September 28, 2010 08:57 PM |
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I love this Ideas!
If it exists a MMH VII I want this feature in it!
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H3 FOrtress is returning to Heresh!
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seddy
Known Hero
Spinner of delicious cupcakes
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posted September 28, 2010 11:34 PM |
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Awesome idea, adds a whole other layer of strategy and richness to the game. Big approval stamp from me!
Question: If there's like, a gryphon rider (which is flying,mounted and attack melee) what would decide the starting skill? Or could it be several as it could be a elite unit or...?
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted September 29, 2010 04:09 AM |
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I still think the best way to implement similar system in HoMM would still be through the hero, which in turn ends up being Hero skill tree to begin with.
To me it seems end result is the same, while keeping Core of the game still in the hands of heroes themselves
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted September 29, 2010 06:49 AM |
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Almost forgot this. But t's great!!!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 29, 2010 07:08 AM |
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Quote:
Question: If there's like, a gryphon rider (which is flying,mounted and attack melee) what would decide the starting skill? Or could it be several as it could be a elite unit or...?
I did not consider a specific unit like that, but a unit could have more than one class skill, so it could be flying and mounted (which is the combo I would opt for), just like a Titan could be ranged and melee.
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What will happen now?
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 29, 2010 07:19 AM |
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Alc, this is ... Amazing! Very impressive, can't wait to see more.
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Message received.
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Mike80D
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted September 29, 2010 08:42 PM |
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Certainly impressive and something I hope they can implement in homm in the future. It reminds me of the old Sega game 'Warriors of Rome' where your legions would get experience and become better. That was the first game I remember playing where it benefitted you to bring them back from battle so that they got experience.
However, I have a few concerns:
1) As we've seen with homm5 initiative, anytime you start adjusting 10% or 20% (in each direction), it becomes overpowered. For example, a creature stack getting +20% damage while sustaining 30% less would become too powerful for sure.
2) This might add to the battlefield startegy, but I think it'd take away from the adventure map strategy. Players would be concerned with "farming" the nearby monsters.
3) One thing I don't like in normal homm is that it is entirely too beneficial to have almost all of your creatures under the command of your best hero (in order to minimizes losses). This change would further increase that lopsidedness.
Nonetheless I think you have a superb start for this idea, especially the base talent names & concepts. The percentages look like they'd need some adjusting though.
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