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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Dark vs Light...Welcome
Thread: Dark vs Light...Welcome This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted August 12, 2010 08:47 AM
Edited by Vangelis21 at 09:07, 12 Aug 2010.

Dark vs Light...Welcome

Dark vs Light
A discussion/ guide thread for the two schools/ spells/ skills and perks.

A small introduction

As we all know heroes of might and magic: tribes of the east includes 4 magic schools: destructive, summoning and of course dark and light magic. In this guide we will talk about the dark and light ones. It is their nature to be enemies and in very rare circumstances they seem to cooperate, although there are exclusions that we will see further on. I would also like to know that i am not going to bother you with formulas and mathematics because i would like this to be perfectly understood by new and young players too.


Analysis of spells, what they do and what can cancel them.

vs

Divine strength
Causes the selected friendly unit to inflict more damage in combat by increasing the minimum damage of it. Spellpower determines the duration of effect.

e.g. A regular crossbowman has damage 2-8. When a Haven hero, with spellpower 8, casts divine strength at expert mastery on him, the crossbowman will have a damage of 8-8 for 8 turns.

Weakness
Causes the selected enemy unit to inflict less damage in combat by decreasing the maximum damage of it. Spellpower determines the duration of effect.

e.g. A regular crossbowman has damage 2-8. When an enemy hero, with spellpower 8, casts weakness at expert mastery on him, the crossbowman will have a damage of 2-2 for 8 turns.

Notes:

As we can see the one cancels the other which means that if weakness is cast on a creature that already has divine strength, the divine strength effect will be lost and the creature will remain with weakness on it!

Uses:

Great spells for creatures that have a big margin between their minimum and maximum damage (like crossbowmen). Used as mass spells will give your faction a great advantage in the battle.

vs

Righteous Might
Affected creature is filled with rage and a lust for blood, it gains bonus to attack. Spellpower determines the duration of effect. Attack of the target in increased by 3, 6, 9 or 12, depending on Light Magic mastery.

e.g. Let's say that a crossbowman has attack 20. When a Haven hero, with spellpower 8, casts righteous might at expert mastery on him, the crossbowman will have attack of 32 for 8 turns.

Suffering
Weakens the target enemy unit to decrease its Attack. Spellpower determines the duration of effect. Attack of the target in decreased by 3, 6, 9 or 12, depending on Dark Magic mastery.

e.g. Let's say that a crossbowman has attack 20. When an enemy hero, with spellpower 8, casts weakness at expert mastery on him, the crossbowman will have attack 0f 8 for 8 turns.

Notes:

As we can see the one cancels the other which means that if suffering is cast on a creature that already has righteous might, the righteous might effect will be lost and the creature will remain with suffering on it!

Uses:

Great spells for creatures that have a big attack attribute (like all high tier creature). Used as mass spells will give your faction a great advantage in the battle.


PS:
I just made those, so i can see if people would be interested in this guide or not. If it is well received you can be sure that in no time it will include a great number of spells, comparisons and tips!

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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!

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Endelite
Endelite


Hired Hero
posted August 12, 2010 07:16 PM

Hmm, well I could add a lot to this debate (actually, I've been absent for about 2 years, I think...welcome me back!) but it's 3:12am in the morning currently right now (for me) and I'm only up in order to organise a whole bunch of files for a friend's new computer. My point is, that I shall happily discuss the matter and point out why in most cases, in my opinion, Light is superior! Alas, I have not the time for it at present (and you know, this matter has probably been discussed a lot already, although I admit I've not checked to see) but I shall be back with my reports in say, 6 days? Some delay is unavoidable, unfortunately.

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Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted August 12, 2010 07:21 PM

don't worry about making this on your own! as you see not many were interested! that is why i am leaving it, to see how many people would like to have a serious debate
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 12, 2010 07:30 PM
Edited by Elvin at 19:32, 12 Aug 2010.

Hey I warned you, it has been discussed to death in those two threads and countless others

Welcome back Endelite, long time no see!
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

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Arcax
Arcax


Promising
Famous Hero
Its quite hot inside...
posted August 15, 2010 10:00 PM
Edited by Arcax at 22:03, 15 Aug 2010.

You missed Vulnerability and Endurance. They kinda work as a counter for each other. Though Vulnerability has an advantage of constant duration.
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Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted August 15, 2010 10:14 PM

thanks but please read the whole op! it is far from finished.
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted August 16, 2010 12:28 AM

Try writing more tips, Captain Obvious
____________

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Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted August 16, 2010 06:58 AM

there is not enough need for such a guide as i see. if more people post that they want it, i will be happy to
____________
Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 16, 2010 11:01 PM

all in all light is better imo - both puppet and frenzy do almost nothing when u have expert defence + mass endurance + light leads to better perks - storm wind, eternal light, fire resistance
dont forget the magic resistance too 1 resisted spell may turn the tides of battle

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Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted August 17, 2010 07:39 AM

it is not a question about which is better. for example, you can't say that light is better because necro can't use it properly and other factions can't use dark properly.

back to your frenzy/puppet comment. those two spells are not SO much about inflicting damage. well, they do that but the point is to make a strong opponent unit "busy". for example, i frenzy arcanes. do i care about the damage they will inflict on treants? i hope you know what i mean.

also, try to go against orcs with dark and with light. no comparison
____________
Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!

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Endelite
Endelite


Hired Hero
posted August 17, 2010 01:22 PM

Light vs Stronghold

How many people actually get shatter Light as Stronghold? (not rhetorical)
If they don't get it, Light is possibly better against them as Dark magic is surely the most likely magic school of magic to attempt to block as Scumhold. Goblin defilers can bugger things up for necropolis with powerful executioners/chieftains demolishing archliches while puppet master/vampirism/frenzy/slow/confusion have failed.

Destructive is already effectively blocked (or reduced, at least) by blood rage (although you can work it down with destructive).

Quote:
it is not a question about which is better. for example, you can't say that light is better because necro can't use it properly and other factions can't use dark properly.

Actually, that is relevant in that it can help to determine which races are generally better against Stronghold. Necropolis will have a lot of trouble getting many light spells or making as much use of it, but other races may be able to use it more effectively. For Haven, the only faction that easily gets both, the expense of the spells sometimes means that neither is better (that is to say, it is better to avoid getting and improving these skills). Academy can easily make use of light, but if they could get plenty of dark, stronghold might not expect it and are less likely to choose Shatter Dark than if their enemy was Necropolis or Inferno.
I'm talking from a 1v1 perspective, of course, although in 2v2, 4pFFA and others, if there was no academy enemy but multiple Inferno/Necropolis enemies, they (Scumhold) would be fairly likely to get Shatter Dark, I imagine.

Vulnerability is usually poor, I think, because apart from Haven, the typical light casters (Academy, Fortress, possibly sylvan with high druids) will cast Endurance with high enough spell power for most battles (5+). If you play as Sylvan with Enlightenment and there are one or two schools of magic and/or Star Axes ....no..."Plane'ariums", five spell power is not so hard to obtain either.
Vulnerability only gets up to -6 and the multi-targettable version is an "area" rather than "mass" spell so you need to cast it multiple times. With slow, confusion, frenzy, sorrow, vampirism and puppet master, you're not usually going to want to use vulnerability instead (although my patch/modification that I have not released and yet will continue to mention changes the power of Vulnerability from -3/4/5/6 to -4/5/6/8, which helps somewhat, especially as I also increased the damage that Faiz's Disruptor specialisation deals).

A large stack of Spectres/Poltergeisten with Expert level Vampirism and Arcane Armour are frightening though...
I played a 1v1 hotseat against myself as Necropolis vs Dungeon and tried many different battles - the final one involved such a stack of Spectres. Necropolis had some nifty artefacts and 26+ natural spell power at level 26+ or so with E.Enlightenment and as a result had about 40 Spell Power. Expert Vampirism with 40SP means that each attack drains "130%" of the damage dealt. Yes, it actually works, so they would heal even more than they dealt...while being incorporeal and durable. I loved it.

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Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted August 17, 2010 01:53 PM

the only shatter that is a must is dark. others are not extremely important.

In general you need to balance things. for example if you have haven and the opponent orcs, then dark is a good choice. depends of course on your spellpower. BUT only in order to cast mass spells and get mass haste and mass endurance as perks.
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Towerlord
Towerlord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted August 17, 2010 02:16 PM

Can't agree about the shatter opinions. While dark magic is the most effective vs. orcs, shatter dark is somewhat the weakest effect shatter, only partially (or not at all) countering the dark spells.

For example, Shattered Puppet Master, only gives immunity to Cyclops, but all the other stacks are very vulnerable, like no shatter was around. So shattering Dark against a Dark caster doesn't guarantee win.

On the other hand, leaving Light Magic unshattered against Sylvan is suicide

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Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted August 17, 2010 02:29 PM

i think , suicide is letting your cyclope get puppeted and all your creatures get frenzied for 2 turns!

with a good rush you can kill sylvan fast
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted August 17, 2010 04:44 PM

Since this is a discussion about shatters.  Lemme kinda agree (based on relatively comparable player skills):

Faction with good dark spells >>> Orcs without shat dark

Faction with good light spells >> Orcs without shat light [for me, sylvan with good light spells vs no shat light is even more dangerous than dark vs no shat dark...maybe similar to what Towerlord said?]

Orcs with shat light >> light

Orcs with shat dark > dark without PM or non-necro dark (I think, but could be more even depending on presence of certain mass spells.  Against high spellpower PM, could be very even)

Non-dark native faction with some good dark spells >> Orcs without shat dark [depends on spellpower & which dark spells actually]

ofc by shatter dark/light, I mean also taking at least detain dark/light perk to detain those fast-casting mass spells plus stormwind if shat light.

& yeah non-shattered mass spells like slow/suff/confusion & RM/haste/endurance seem the most dangerous if no high spellpower PM.

Above is simplistic - other factors include haven's might & demons gating etc [rushing excluded ofc]

Lol, Endelite: sorrow mentioned with PM/slow/confusion/frenzy/vamp?
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted August 17, 2010 06:28 PM

it is a good chance to note that against inferno, light must be better as all your mass spells go to your creatures whereas if you cast mass dark to them ,the gated ones will not be affected as they will come later
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!

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Endelite
Endelite


Hired Hero
posted August 18, 2010 12:18 AM
Edited by Endelite at 00:19, 18 Aug 2010.

SKPRIMUS - I thought someone might mention that mention of Sorrow. Couldn't get away with it... Expert Sorrow cannot be cast en masse, no.
I also would rarely use it even if I could and Banshee Howl might often be better in the situations in which you'd consider to use Sorrow. This is not simply about 'the final battle', Sorrow could help you earlier on than you have fourth and fifth level spells. If you go up against a large stack of something especially mighty, say Paladins, it might just save you, either by causing them (if they're neutral creatures) to lose their turn or by causing their attack to deal only one half of the usual damage. I did not say it was the best dark spell in the game, rather that it can be very good. Paladins are immune to Frenzy, but not to Sorrow. Paladins owned by a hero might well have be one tile further due to Tactics or be owned by a hero with either Aura of Swiftness, Windstrider Boots or Familiar Ground on grass and reach you in one turn.
Slow won't stop them reaching you when they DO get their turn and you won't always be able to wipe them out before they get any turns, nor can you disable/ruin them with Blind, Puppet Master, Wasp Swarm, Master of Storms or Master of Ice if you don't happen to have any of them.
As a Necromancer, you may well choose to avoid Destructive and not just HAPPEN to get all of the right spells because you play on maps with lots of easily collectable towns or multiple arcane libraries.
Even with many shrines it's quite possible to miss desired first levels spells like slow and fire trap, so yes, at times Sorrow can be very good.
NO I DID NOT SAY IT WAS THE BEST IN THE GAME!
And that's how much I'll type in response to your tiny critical jibe.

Oh and this is NOT a topic about Shatter skills; read the top post. Of course you can compare the value of Shatter Light and Dark to each other, but this thread is clearly not about the Shatter Skills in general.
Vangelis - mm, but dark can be used to either make their fantastic attack score plummet or be turned against them with either Frenzy or Puppet Master, so I'm not sure it's as simple as Light being better against Inferno.

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted August 18, 2010 04:41 AM

@Endelite, yeah sure man...I wonder who mentioned shatters in this thread first

[like Elvin said light vs dark discussion has been done to death elsewheere & there's nothing new in first few posts...]

Mostly, it's best is casting non-counterable mass spells first - arcane intuition for knowing enemy spellbook helps immensely which Elvin has also mentioned before somewhere in some of his duel game descriptions.]
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 18, 2010 07:21 PM

Quote:
it is not a question about which is better. for example, you can't say that light is better because necro can't use it properly and other factions can't use dark properly.

back to your frenzy/puppet comment. those two spells are not SO much about inflicting damage. well, they do that but the point is to make a strong opponent unit "busy". for example, i frenzy arcanes. do i care about the damage they will inflict on treants? i hope you know what i mean.

also, try to go against orcs with dark and with light. no comparison


i hope u know what u mean

1. "you can't say that light is better because necro can't use it properly and other factions can't use dark properly. "  - i know that i cant, have i said that ???

2." the point is to make a strong opponent unit "busy". for example, i frenzy arcanes." - the AAs arent the main problem, btw what do u prefer - to cast a mass dark spell, or a single target curse ?( u gave an example with sylvan, actually it doent matter as long the opposite faction has tons of dmg reductions and plenty of killer stacks)

3. "also, try to go against orcs with dark and with light. no comparison" - EPIC, thats  so insightful - u figured it out by urself or Elvin told you ? Orcs are a race that is SUPER MIGHT oriented and they dont have light magic/units to counter the opposite dark, so thay are an isolated case (Shatter dark vs dark isnt enough, but i suppose that someone has alredy told u that too )

P.S. i feel so much better now , was enraged when i read ur post, sry if i was a bit rude

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Endelite
Endelite


Hired Hero
posted August 19, 2010 04:33 PM
Edited by Endelite at 16:48, 19 Aug 2010.

"Endelite, yeah sure man...I wonder who mentioned shatters in this thread first"
Well, I mentioned the ones relevant to this topic, but it's not ALL ABOUT the Shatters as you suggested (although undoubtedly, despite your very straightforward wording, you'd like to convince me that you weren't actually suggesting the entire topic was about the shatters).

Also, I suppose I must have read some stuff about shatter magic in a different topic simultaneously, because I could have sworn you had mentioned Shatter Destructive and Shatter Summoning (which are clearly irrelevant to this discussion). I wasn't intending to make a big deal of it either.

I have a question, it's probably been answered in other topics about dark or inferno, but I've been absent for the 20 months, so I'd have missed it.
How often do people use dark against Inferno? Only it seems that they, along with Haven and Stronghold (and Sylvan too actually), would be fantastic targets for curses. Inferno not only has huge attack skill, so Suffering, with its larger immediate effect than Vulnerability would be more useful due to even the lowest units having high attacks scores (and potentially being dropped by all 12 attack also) and apart from Cerberi, they all have pretty wide damage ranges, so the simple Weakness spell would be VERY potent against them. Obviously, people would have discussed Puppet Master and Frenzy against them and they will have a hard time getting Light (not to mention the actual spells) on any normal map, so it's much harder for them to defend against it (no immunities apart from Succubus Seducers). So...how often?

Also, regarding Shatter Dark...uh, Goblin Defilers?
If they foil even one spell and you also have to deal with Detain Dark, it can really ruin your day.
I owned myself in a 1v1 hotseat Necropolis vs Stronghold where I tried to be realistic about where I would want to place each stack at the start of the battle.
The obstacles in the terrain sadly didn't give the liches any really safe place and tried to place the stacks logically and without thinking about where the opposing forces stacks were placed.
The goblin defilers actually got a pretty good initiative roll, because in a short space of time, the following things happened:

1: The Executioners were able to move before the archliches had their first turn and the ugly Executioners were able to saunter over to the liches and kill about 32% the stack or more with the first hit, receive a feeble retaliation and then clobber the poor dead guys again for another 29% or so. I'm not sure of the percentages, but the liches were pretty stuffed after that, definitely below 50%...in fact, I remember it being so drastic...I really think that the first hit must have dealt about 45% or more and brought the stack probably below 20% after the second, it was really devastating (not so surprising, as they were both about level 26, I think, and the Stronghold hero was Gorshak).

2: The goblin defilers actually got to go before the necromancer and attempted to foil his/her (Lucretia/Naadir/Deirdre, forgotten which) spell attempt.

3: I may have been about to use Mass Slow or Mass Confusion, but I suspect it was Puppet Master on the preposterous Executioner stack. Regardless of the intention, it was foiled and Necropolis was fighting a hugely imbalanced battle at that point. One spell can mean SO much and goblin defilers in particular (I think) help to foil dark, regardless of Corrupt Dark.
Please note that this is not a statement from someone determined that either of Light or Dark are simply better than each other against Scumhold; I am merely offering an experience to consider.

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