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| Thread: Active Morale |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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whiterider
Known Hero
death walks with me
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posted September 15, 2010 10:51 PM |
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IMO the H5 bloodlust skill was some kind of special Morale skill for the orcs - they improved their abilities when damaging the opponent.
My original idea was that Morale should change during the battle and these changes are made because you use certain tactic unique for your race - Inferno units that jump reckless into battle, Haven units that form defensive formations, Necro units that weaken enemies and siphon their live-force etc. This will force the players to stick to certain RPG behaviour and not use defense tactics with Inferno for example (Like in all RPG games where you cant have a paladin that steals and kills innocent people, or lawful thief). At the same time this is an obstruction to the ways you use your race units and a push to play in certain way to take advantage from it - increasing the Morale is a kind of a reward when you play with your race in the way it was designed to be. These differences between the factions are fact even now, this is just an add-on.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted September 15, 2010 11:04 PM |
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Quote:
IMO the H5 bloodlust skill was some kind of special Morale skill for the orcs - they improved their abilities when damaging the opponent.
My original idea was that Morale should change during the battle and these changes are made because you use certain tactic unique for your race - Inferno units that jump reckless into battle, Haven units that form defensive formations, Necro units that weaken enemies and siphon their live-force etc. This will force the players to stick to certain RPG behaviour and not use defense tactics with Inferno for example (Like in all RPG games where you cant have a paladin that steals and kills innocent people, or lawful thief). At the same time this is an obstruction to the ways you use your race units and a push to play in certain way to take advantage from it - increasing the Morale is a kind of a reward when you play with your race in the way it was designed to be. These differences between the factions are fact even now, this is just an add-on.
That I dislike highly, because it fixes the factions on a tactic.
...however, I repeat my question wether I may add the "active morale" idea, to the list in the linked thread.
Also, I still like the idea of morale being more variable in combat. for instance, dying friendly stacks should lower morale, usually, especially from the same faction. Also, facing large units could lower morale a bit, for smal units...and there could be MUCH mroe thigns.
What I do not really like is changing the purpose of morale at all, I like the second turn thingy^^
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whiterider
Known Hero
death walks with me
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posted September 15, 2010 11:36 PM |
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Of course you can add this topic, I didn't noticed your question in the previous post 
Maybe I want a change in the way the Morale works, because I didn't like the extra turn it gave in H3 (this and the over-emphasis on speed are the things that should be reworked in H3...I know it is heresy )
There are more ways the Morale could work:
- higher Morale could improve the chance certain creature passive abilities work - like Unicorn's Blind or it even can re-charge one-time abilities as the Archangel's Resurrection.
- Morale could give 150% more damage, where Luck could be linked as its opposite - halving the damage - Morale and Luck in the same strike will be nullified.
- Morale could act as Bless - creatures that trigger Morale do max damage, low morale = min damage
- and the most extravagant - if the damage range is 12-20 when triggering Morale the damage range can be 20-28 (same difference between the min/max damage is kept but the new min damage is the old max damage). In this way 50-75 damage becomes 75-100 etc. Low Morale works in the opposite way - 12-20 damage becomes 4-12, 50-75 becomes 25-50 etc. Of course all low units should have higher initial damage so this formula can work. (The last idea could be used as a high level Dark Spell as well).
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted September 16, 2010 07:09 AM |
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(this and the over-emphasis on speed are the things that should be reworked in H3...I know it is heresy 
should? Maybe I'm just tooo unskilled in tactics, but except of the high tiers, I always liked some strong troops more than the quick ones. Pegasi, for instance, I never liked. THe flies, however, COULD be a real pain in the ***.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 16, 2010 07:56 AM |
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Quote:
That I dislike highly, because it fixes the factions on a tactic. (...) Also, I still like the idea of morale being more variable in combat. for instance, dying friendly stacks should lower morale, usually, especially from the same faction.
Yes, I'm with you on this, I think Orcs were forced too much into a specific tactics in Heroes 5, and even with that, there were ways to work around it (side-stepping instead of waiting to avoid loosing rage).
As for Morale workings - getting a second turn (as in Heroes 1-3) was kind of imbalanced, at least I liked the H5 mechanism better, where you sort of got only half an extra turn, but of course they can't do that anymore. Of course, if there is indeed a separate speed stat that determines when unit acts (and not how far it moves) positive morale could increase this stat to move unit up in the turn row.
About having Morale affecting damage - I like it as it is: Morale affects when unit acts, Luck affects damage. But I wouldn't be against tweaking Luck mechanism also, towards something like full damage instead of double damage. Thus, one could have:
Morale = +4 speed (i.e. unit acts earlier in upcomming turn(s))
Luck = Maximum damage.
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What will happen now?
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 16, 2010 09:14 AM |
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Agreed with most of what Alci wrote
Quote:
I liked the H5 mechanism better, where you sort of got only half an extra turn, but of course they can't do that anymore. Of course, if there is indeed a separate speed stat that determines when unit acts (and not how far it moves) positive morale could increase this stat to move unit up in the turn row.
According to the summup of Gamescon at Torre de Marfil, there will be a stat for speed and a stat for initiative. One could easily imagine that positive morale could multiply your initiative by 1.5 and let you act earlier in the next turn - so a unit with 8 Ini would have 12 for the next turn - while a unit with negative morale would have its Ini multiplied by 0.5 (from 8 down to 4) and act later in next turn.
It could even evolve the same way as in H4, but with caps at +5 and -5, meaning that each +1 point in moral would be a 10% Initiative increase while each -1 point would be a 10% Initiative decrease
As for luck, I'm still trying to figure how it could work. On one screenshot we saw that the clover was giving +4 Fate (vs +1 Luck in previous Heroes) and I find this value quite high for the normal mechanisms of Luck.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 16, 2010 10:13 AM |
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Quote:
Agreed with most of what Alci wrote
Quote:
I liked the H5 mechanism better, where you sort of got only half an extra turn, but of course they can't do that anymore. Of course, if there is indeed a separate speed stat that determines when unit acts (and not how far it moves) positive morale could increase this stat to move unit up in the turn row.
According to the summup of Gamescon at Torre de Marfil, there will be a stat for speed and a stat for initiative. One could easily imagine that positive morale could multiply your initiative by 1.5 and let you act earlier in the next turn - so a unit with 8 Ini would have 12 for the next turn - while a unit with negative morale would have its Ini multiplied by 0.2 (from 8 down to 4) and act later in next turn.
It could even evolve the same way as in H4, but with caps at +5 and -5, meaning that each +1 point in moral would be a 10% Initiative increase while each -1 point would be a 10% Initiative decrease
Well apart from the fail of your math skills (0.2 x 8 = 1.6  ) notice that the Initiative bonus gained on good morale would have to be PERMANENT for the battle - otherwise, your next turn would come faster, but then you'd have to wait LONGER for your third turn. So if Morale moves you up in the line of action, you should stay there - i.e. after your second turn, there's the normal wait between your turns.
Also, I think your Morale modifier should ONLY affect the trigger chance, not the effect - i.e. bonus should be the same no matter if you have low or high morale, it's just more likely to occur when you have high. Otherwise, you'll have an imbalanced system where low morale is useless (low trigger chance, little gain) while high morale is overpowered (high trigger chance, big gain).
Quote:
As for luck, I'm still trying to figure how it could work. On one screenshot we saw that the clover was giving +4 Fate (vs +1 Luck in previous Heroes) and I find this value quite high for the normal mechanisms of Luck.
Actually, that makes sense. From the screenshot with the Marksman, notice that he has Morale = 30 and Luck = 10 - this would imply that the stats are simply multiplied by 10 compared to previous games.
Thus, Fate/Luck = 10 would equivalent 10 % trigger chance (old times: Luck = +1), and Morale = 30 will equivalent 30 % trigger chance (old times: Morale = +3). Thus, the 4 Leaf Clover giving +4 would equivalent an old-time bonus of +0.4, which is ok for a treasure artifact. Thus, they seem to make the bonus system more dynamic to avoid über powerful arties (á la +20 % Initiative  ).
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What will happen now?
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 16, 2010 10:21 AM |
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In fact it's the 0.2 that was a typo It was meant to be 0.5
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 16, 2010 05:20 PM |
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Luck = Maximum damage.
you already have a chance to score maximum damage or almost without being lucky. and if you are blessed, luck become useless (though, I remember there was a luck spell in H3, but I don't think it gave maximum luck)
but it could be something as obvious as increasing chances for good morale and luck based abilities.
in that case, your level of morale wouldn't determine your chance to benefit the bonus, but how high the bonus would be.
Quote:
According to the summup of Gamescon at Torre de Marfil, there will be a stat for speed and a stat for initiative. One could easily imagine that positive morale could multiply your initiative by 1.5 and let you act earlier in the next turn - so a unit with 8 Ini would have 12 for the next turn - while a unit with negative morale would have its Ini multiplied by 0.5 (from 8 down to 4) and act later in next turn.
I think it would be better balanced if a unit with negative morale has its speed multiplied by 0.67 (divided by 1.5)
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whiterider
Known Hero
death walks with me
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posted December 22, 2010 10:09 PM |
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Ok, another idea for Morale
Lets say the formula for the damage is like following:
Attack 15 vs Defense 10 will give 20% more damage (each point of Attack equals 4% more damage, each point of Defense equals 4% less damage)
BUT after certain cap lets say 80% or 20 more or less attack points vs defense part of the units will miss the target
20 - 5% of the units are not counted in the attack - they miss
22 - 10% of the units miss
24 - 15% miss etc.
And here comes the Morale - when triggering morale you always hit no matter what is the difference between your attack and the defense of the target. On the other hand - when triggering bad morale part of your units miss depending on their level in comparision to the level of the target.
Actually this is very close to the meaning of the word Morale - to find strenght in yourself to deal with almost impossible things. And the morale could be increased or decreased during combat depending on how the battle goes. If you are losing many troops the morale of other troops drops but certain skills of the hero could change that - if your hero encourages one stack when other troops lose morale this particular stack will gain morale.
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted December 23, 2010 11:16 AM |
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Edited by Aatos at 11:35, 23 Dec 2010.
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I think that morale and luck mechanics should be simple. They also should not increase the power of the winning player while decreasing the power of the losing player because that would decide the battles in the begining and it would stop the course of battle from being able to change. Morale and Luck should favor both players equally unless some skill or artifact changes that. I also think that there should be no "miss", or "block" effects in the game like the H5 Ghost or the H4 Minotaur, especially if they are based on chance, because they are too powerful, they change the game too much and they ruin strategy and tactics.
Here is my suggestion.
Morale affects time of play and movement range.
Luck affects attack and defense.
Damage is affected only by bless and curse.
Luck
Creatures can be lucky, unlucky or neutral when attacking and when defending. If you are lucky/unlucky when you attack your attack is increased/decreased by 50%. If you are lucky/unlucky when you defend from an attack your defese is increased/decreased by 50%. If you are neutral there is no change.
So if you are lucky when you attack and your opponent is unlucky when he defends you have the biggest bonus and if you are unlucky when you attack and your opponent is lucky when he defends your opponent has the biggest bonus. If you are both lucky or unlucky the creature with the better stats benefits. If you are both neutral nothing changes.
The chance to be lucky or unlucky would be determined by your luck value which would have a range of -50 to +50 with zero being neutral and each number being 1% chance for the effect to trigger. Negetive for unlucky and positive for lucky.
Morale
Creatures can have good, bad or neutral morale every time they play. If morale is neutral there is no change. If morale is good the creature has +1 movement range in the current turn and acts sooner in the next turn because it's speed is increased by 50%. If morale is bad the creature has -1 movement range in this turn and acts later in the next turn because it's speed is decreased by 50%.
The chance to have good or bad morale would be determined by your morale value which would have a range of -50 to +50 with zero being neutral and each number being 1% chance for the effect to trigger. Negative for bad and positive for good.
@Alcibiades Interesting idea with making players not have small stacks of creatures.
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To fail to plan is to plan to
fail.
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted December 23, 2010 11:37 AM |
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Edited by Aatos at 11:42, 23 Dec 2010.
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Peasant versus Skeleton. They both have 10 attack, 10 defense, 10 speed and 10 movement.
Luck example
Peasant hits Skeleton.
Peasant is lucky, his attack is now 15.
Skeleton is unlucky, his defense is now 5.
Peasant is unlucky, his attack is now 5.
Skeleton is lucky his defense is now 15.
Peasant is lucky, his attack is now 15.
Skeleton is lucky, his defense is now 15.
Peasant is unlucky, his attack is now 5.
Skeleton is unlucky, his defense is now 5.
The situation is the same when the Skeleton retaliates.
If any of them has no luck effect their stats stay the same.
Morale example
Peasant acts with good morale, his speed is now 15, his movement is now 11.
Peasant acts with bad morale, his speed is now 5, his movement is now 9.
Peasant acts with no morale effect, there is no change.
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To fail to plan is to plan to
fail.
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whiterider
Known Hero
death walks with me
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posted December 23, 2010 11:59 AM |
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Yes, this sounds like very good idea. I cant understand why they stick with morale giving a free turn (it will be ok IF neutrals were given much more morale under certain circumstances AND IF undead could use it. Imagine a Haven with tons of Morale acting twice (this in fact doubles Haven Army power and skills) and is a huge disadvantage to undead.
This is the simple reason I think Morale should be reworked, so it is equally used by all factions and vs neutrals.
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted December 23, 2010 06:24 PM |
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I think that morale doesn't affect the undead because they have the ability "undead" which gives them immunity to many effects.
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To fail to plan is to plan to
fail.
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thehiddeneye
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 24, 2010 08:03 AM |
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About active morale
My suggestion for active morale is to make it into a unit stat, just like Attack, Defense and Damage. Things which units are significant power advantage over the enemy army, breaching the gate/walls during siege battles, all units in the army being of the same faction, defending in siege and dealing severe damage to the enemy army during combat. Things which decrease morale are the presence of units from multiple factions in the army, presence of Demons/undead amongst living units, a severe power disadvantage against the enemy army (this is countered by a Leadership perk called Against All Odds, which actually turns this into a morale advantage), having the gate/walls breached while defending during a siege and losing a significant amount of units during combat.
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