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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Government Control of Religious Practices
Thread: Government Control of Religious Practices This thread is 19 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 · NEXT»
Elodin
Elodin


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Free Thinker
posted September 15, 2010 05:34 AM

Government Control of Religious Practices

How much control do you think the government should have over what people religious articles of clothing or jewelry a person may wear or other practices that are not harmful to others?

In my opinion, France has taken another step away from liberty. The French government decided they have a right to regulate the clothing that people may wear as a part of their religious devotion to their deity.  I guess that means the French Parliament has officially declared itself to be the state-god. I would like to point out that they specificly said even the VOLUNTARY wearing of certain articles of clothing is illegal.

I can understand a person being required to remove a covering of the face in a security sensitive area or in order for a law enforcement official to identify them. But not a general ban of such religous attire.

France discards freedom

Quote:
The French senate approved Tuesday a law banning any veils that cover the face -- including the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women -- making France the first European country to plan such a measure.

The law passed by a vote of 246 to 1, with about 100 abstentions coming essentially from left-leaning politicians.

The legislation was overwhelmingly approved by the lower house of parliament in July and will go into effect next spring.

French people back the ban by a margin of more than four to one, the Pew Global Attitudes Project found in a survey earlier this year.

Some 82 percent of people polled approved of a ban, while 17 percent disapproved. That was the widest support the Washington-based think tank found in any of the five countries it surveyed.

Clear majorities also backed burqa bans in Germany, Britain and Spain, while two out of three Americans opposed it, the survey found.

A panel of French lawmakers recommended a ban last year, and lawmakers unanimously passed a non-binding resolution in May calling the full-face veil contrary to the laws of the nation.

"Given the damage it produces on those rules which allow the life in community, ensure the dignity of the person and equality between sexes, this practice, even if it is voluntary, cannot be tolerated in any public place," the French government said when it sent the measure to parliament in May.



The French it would seem have much to learn from America's founding fathers.

Quote:

Thomas Jefferson : It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own.

Jefferson: "No provision in our Constitution ought to be dearer to man than that which protects the rights of conscience against the enterprise of civil authority."

Jefferson: "Man has been subjected by his Creator to the moral law, of which his feelings, or conscience as it is sometimes called, are the evidence with which his Creator has furnished him... The moral duties which exist between individual and individual in a state of nature, accompany them into a state of society...their Maker not having released them from those duties on their forming themselves into a nation."

James Madison: "…a man's land, merchandise, or money is called his property…He (also) has a property of peculiar value in his religious opinions and in the profession and practice dictated by them…Government is instituted to protect property of every sort…Conscience is the most sacred of all property.


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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted September 15, 2010 05:50 AM

I think it is not our place to dictate what any other country decides.  We are not the world's police, government, or big brother.   Let France take care of France, we have our own problems to take care of.  That is my opinion on the matter.
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted September 15, 2010 05:59 AM

Quote:
How much control do you think the government should have over what people religious articles of clothing or jewelry a person may wear or other practices that are not harmful to others?


None.
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Mytical
Mytical


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Chaos seeking Harmony
posted September 15, 2010 06:27 AM

Religion should have no special rules either way.  For or against.  So limiting what people wear for religious reasons is something I am against.  Regardless if it is Turbans, Crosses, or pentagrams (pagen) people should be able to wear any religious items they wish.  Without persecution.
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Binabik
Binabik


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posted September 15, 2010 06:46 AM
Edited by Binabik at 06:53, 15 Sep 2010.

I'm kinda partial to running around the mall wearing nothing but a lacy pink bra and little silk panties. If someone wants to wear a burka that's cool too, but I really think they should try the bra and panties just for variety.

Um, is a burka really so different than a nun's habit?

And if the founding fathers have something to say they can Join HC and speak for themselves. Otherwise who gives a crap what they said?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 15, 2010 08:25 AM

A very sensitive issue.

First thing to keep in mind is that muslimic dress codes are based on INTERPRETATION of religious writings - not on clear demands or commandments.
When it comes to gender-specific dress codes, the question is: WHO (gender-wise) has interpreted the religious writings?
Which leads to the question of whether strict muslimic dress codes for women (that is where dress code is different - there IS a dress code that is EQUAL for both genders) IS INDEED to be considered part of a PERSONAL religious belief.

You can of course debate this up and down - but I don't think it is part of a PERSONAL religious belief.

Which amounts to the question whether religious freedom includes the right of one group of people to treat another group of people differently and force them to behave in ways that limit their personal rights within society. Or to force them to pass on personal rights - especially if it's an INTERPRETATION only of a religious writing.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 15, 2010 10:28 AM

What if someone wants to wear a burqa for fashion? He can't? Why? I can wear a ninja outfit and nobody will give a damn but I can't wear a stupid burqa?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 15, 2010 10:54 AM

Well, it's not that easy, Doomforge, isn't it?
First thing is, we are talking only about "in public places"..

What if I WANT to wear a slave collar IN PUBLIC? What If I WANT to be called NIGGAH in public?

That is a difficult situation. It is obvious that burqa-wearing people, that is people whose face is covered and invisible, are immediately OUT for certain professions in WESTERN countries. Jobs that involve a lot of contact with other people can't be fulfilled by persons veiling their faces. I mean, if you have a business like that, you'd reject any candidate NOT willing to show his or her face to the public...
Now, if you legally  can't discriminate a person because of his or her religious belief, this might prove very awkward if veiled persons apply for a job.

I don't think, this question would have ever been raised, if the wearing of a veil would have been a VOLUNTARY thing in the first place. It isn't, though.
Interestingly enough, from a LEGAL point of view, sine men are NOT supposed to wear a veil, this "rule" constitutes a clear discrimination.

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 15, 2010 11:44 AM

I think that the government should just control so that the religion follows the laws of the country. I do not understand why they forbid burqas. In Sweden, there is a similar suggestion but its only about not been able to wear a burqa if you are a teacher which I think is a good idea. I would not want someone wearing a burqa that I can not see in the eyes to teach me in school.
I think the government should encourage parents to not influence their children with religion but instead let them choose if they want to be religous or not when they are older.
I also think that it should be a 100% forbidden for religion to be taught as fact in school etc and that all religions should be teached just so we can understand them better (actually in sweden we read about all the major religions except that chinese religion).
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


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What if Elvin was female?
posted September 15, 2010 11:55 AM

I think the law is right but for the wrong reasons.

First of all, almost every country bans use of face conceiling clothing, masks, commandos, scarfs veiling face, etc. in public or at least at public facilities, schools etc. Burka is no different from any other clothing like that.

BUT France made a new law that clearly states the burka is banned because of sexual equality. Now this is just plain wrong.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Wog refugee
posted September 15, 2010 11:59 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 12:02, 15 Sep 2010.

Elodin you amaze me. First a thread about how wrong would be to allow muslims to build a mosque near ground zero, and now how wrong is to prohibit muslims to wear their religious clothes in public places.

An overwhelming majority of french are positive about this issue. This does not concern their racism or muslimophobia but real strange facts happening every day in their country. They decided to stop it. Good move.

And no, french government does not prohibit religious practice. Anyone is free to practice any religion, but in appropriate places. Not when driving a car or going in restaurants, or teaching in schools and such things.
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Mytical
Mytical


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Chaos seeking Harmony
posted September 15, 2010 12:02 PM

Actually he is against them limiting religious garb if I read his post right.  So he would be advocating FOR muslims in this particular instance (Ie they should be able to wear whatever they desire).
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Wog refugee
posted September 15, 2010 12:05 PM

He is always against what a government decides, even if this is 100% similar to his previous ideas. Reactionary to excess.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted September 15, 2010 12:15 PM

I don't think, he's arguing FOR muslims here - he's arguing AGAINST society or government to limit religious freedom, at least when it comes to clothing.
Obviously, though, society - or government - does have a right to limit this FOR PUBLIC PLACES.

But as I said - he would have to prove first, that wearing the burqa is in fact a RELIGIOUS demad and not an issue of female oppression based on a BIASSED interpretation of a religious writing that can be interpreted differently as well: Does ALLAH want women to go veiled or is this a male interpretation of the words of His Prophet?


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Mytical
Mytical


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Chaos seeking Harmony
posted September 15, 2010 12:29 PM

Well I agree that government should not make any special rules for religions.  What is illegal for one (or legal for one) should be illegal (or legal) for all.  However, that goes for special privileges also.  Religions should not receive any special privileges either.  Like oh say the right to say who can or can not be married, or to decide WHAT marriage is.  But that is a topic for another time.  
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angelito
angelito


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proud father of a princess
posted September 15, 2010 12:53 PM
Edited by angelito at 12:53, 15 Sep 2010.

Religion = PRIVATE thing
PUBLIC place = NONE private thing
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted September 15, 2010 12:55 PM

Quote:

But as I said - he would have to prove first, that wearing the burqa is in fact a RELIGIOUS demad and not an issue of female oppression based on a BIASSED interpretation of a religious writing that can be interpreted differently as well: Does ALLAH want women to go veiled or is this a male interpretation of the words of His Prophet?



Lol!  Biased according to who? You? You have heard from Allah and you are his prophet? Prophet JJ has now come to tell us all what Allah requires and how to interpret the Qu'ran! Should your interpretation of the Qu'ran be forced on the woman who wants to wear a burqa? Should the French Parliament's interpretation of the Qu'ran be forced on the woman?

Who gets to decide the interpretation of a religious text? The government or the individual?

You will note in the first post of the thread I highlighted VOLUNTARY. It is illegal now in France for a woman to VOLUNTARILY wear a burqa. The French government has decided an individual shall not follow his own conscience in religious matters but will be required to follow the dictates of the State instead.

I agree that a woman should not be forced to wear a burqa. But a woman who WANTS to wear it because she believes it is required by her god should be allowed to wear it.

Clicky

Quote:
I wear the burqa for the simple reason that I am a Muslim and the Koran says that I must wear the full veil in order to be modest.

I am proud of my Muslim faith and my modesty. I am proud to follow God's law.

Nobody ever forced me to wear the full veil and I have been wearing it for around 10 years now.

In fact, very few of my friends actually wear one. There are, of course, situations in which some men force their wives or daughters to wear the burqa but, believe me, these cases are a very, very small minority.

For those of us who are believers, we just want to do God's will and live by the sacred text, so what any man says has nothing to do with that.

I am testament to that as I don't have a husband and I practice my religion freely, that's why I'm always shocked when people say it's the husband who forces his wife to wear a burqa.

It is actually the case that a lot of men in France do not wish their wives to wear the full veil because when they go out, they are insulted or attacked and their husbands don't want them to be put in that situation.

I first started wearing the full veil when I was a teenager but I stopped for a while because when you're young, you don't want to be set apart, you want to look like everyone else.

But later after seeing what was happening with terrorist attacks involving Muslims all over the world, I decided to become more conscious and find out more about my faith.

In the process, I found myself becoming more spiritual and decided to start wearing the burqa.

Now, my liberty is being threatened with this law proposed by the French government. If this law is passed, it will be a great injustice. It is very unfair that they are even considering this law.

Perhaps the French authorities are terrified that women will start dressing like this, despite evidence to the contrary.

Why am I, as a Muslim woman, targeted unfairly, when there are less than 2,000 of us in France who wear the burqa? Where is my freedom of clothing or expression?

France prides itself as a country that upholds the rights of man but where are my rights? Why am I not free to wear what I want?

Many cite security reasons because they can't tell who is under the veil. But myself and a lot of women who wear the burqa are always happy to identify ourselves when asked.

In the past, I have taken off my veil when it is asked of me -- as long as it's a woman who does it. My religion demands that I cover my face in front of any man who is not either my brother, father or husband.



What right does the government of France have to tell this woman she can't wear a burqa? None. The decision of the French Parliament is tyranical and is demeaning to the woman and devalues her as a human being capable of making her own decisions. It is precisely the same heavy handed treatment that the Parliament professes to want to stop. The French government is saying that it will tell the woman what her god requires of her and that her conscience in the matter means nothing.
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Mytical
Mytical


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Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted September 15, 2010 12:57 PM

Ok, but lets put aside the religion thing for a minute.

How would you like it if somebody came up and said.  "Your choice in clothing, attire, whatever is not acceptable.  You have to wear this costume of a duck instead?" sounds ridiculous right? This is not about a place of work, or even indecent clothing.  I mean, what we should all be dressed in full body grey jumpsuits because somebody might get offended?
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Wog refugee
posted September 15, 2010 12:58 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 13:01, 15 Sep 2010.

We do NOT want to see phantoms looking people in the street. We do NOT want that our children are taught in school by phantoms looking teachers. We are afraid when we see phantoms drivers with eyes covered running at high speed. Practice your religion in your house or in the appropriate place, there are thousand of mosques everywhere. Respect the people/country who feeds you and don't provoke it. That's all.

And no, there is no explanation for why the law is this or that (there is always a text behind but it does not reflect the "true reason"). We do not want, that's all. Accept it or return in religious based countries, from where you came with custom demands.
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Mytical
Mytical


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Chaos seeking Harmony
posted September 15, 2010 01:04 PM

I said nothing when they came for my neighbor, who was a Jew.  For I was not a Jew, and it had nothing to do with me.

I said nothing when they came for the man down the street, who was Irish.  For I was not Irish, and it had nothing to do with me.

I said nothing when they came for the Germans, or the Swedish..for I was neither..and it had nothing to do with me.

Now I am the only person left, who will speak out when they come for me?

- Paraphrase of a very famous saying.

When you get to the point where you limit anything people might not like, then eventually we have nothing left.  Because somebody is not going to like the things WE do.  Think about it.
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