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Heroes Community > Heroes 6+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Heroes 6 artifacts
Thread: Heroes 6 artifacts
Radox
Radox


Known Hero
posted October 07, 2010 01:27 PM

Heroes 6 artifacts

Artifacts have been a pretty vital aspect of every Heroes game so far. I have no doubt that will be the case again in Heroes 6. Share your thoughts on what classes and types of artifacts there should be in Heroes 6.

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted October 07, 2010 02:05 PM

More qualitative artifacts would be nice rather then all the +X to stat Y ones.
I mean sure, a few simple +X to offense and +Y to knowledge items are welcome but lot's of fun qualitative items, such as a rare artifact that gives all your core units a chance to poison the stack they are attacking.

Or an artifact that that creates a "blank spell" in your spell book, the first spell cast by an enemy stack or hero is then copied onto that "blank spell" as a one shot, free spell, after use it's inactive for the rest of the battle.
If a new spell is cast before you cast the free spell, the free spell becomes that new latest spell.

Or an artifact which gives your units a small stat boost based on how much movement you spent that turn outside of combat.

Or an artifact that randomly reveals a tiny portion of the fog of war on the map every turn as long as you have it equiped.

Or an artifact that causes all your hero's basic attacks to grant 2 mana.

You get the idea.

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Kien
Kien


Hired Hero
posted October 07, 2010 04:27 PM

Well let's hope it's better than H5. H5 was crap when it came to the artifacts. The were rare, boring and little difference in effects. 1 gives +50% lighting damage another reduces earth damage %50. H3 had alot more artifact and different effects from them. Get artifact usage back to H3 level or better.

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MattII
MattII


Supreme Hero
posted October 07, 2010 05:31 PM

I take it you haven't looked at the H3 Artefacts recently Kien, because I'll tell you what, they're boring as friggin' sin, 1 Orb per school to increase the effectiveness of the spells, 1 Tome per school to allow you to learn all the spells, 3 artefacts to increase unit health, 3 artefacts to reduce the cost of surrendering, 6 swords to increase your attack, 6 shields to increase your defence, etc. Talk about boring and repetitive. Oh, sure a lot of the H5 artefacts had overlapping abilities as well, but at least they balanced it out with a lot of them by sticking extra abilities, which forces me to choose, do I go for 'Armour Of The Forgotten Hero' or 'Cuirass Of The Dwarven Kings'? In H3 the only such conflict would have been between 'Titan's Cuirass' and 'Dragon Scale Armour', and even then only because the bonuses were 8 stats each.

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Kien
Kien


Hired Hero
posted October 07, 2010 07:17 PM

Quote:
I take it you haven't looked at the H3 Artefacts recently Kien, because I'll tell you what, they're boring as friggin' sin, 1 Orb per school to increase the effectiveness of the spells, 1 Tome per school to allow you to learn all the spells, 3 artefacts to increase unit health, 3 artefacts to reduce the cost of surrendering, 6 swords to increase your attack, 6 shields to increase your defence, etc. Talk about boring and repetitive. Oh, sure a lot of the H5 artefacts had overlapping abilities as well, but at least they balanced it out with a lot of them by sticking extra abilities, which forces me to choose, do I go for 'Armour Of The Forgotten Hero' or 'Cuirass Of The Dwarven Kings'? In H3 the only such conflict would have been between 'Titan's Cuirass' and 'Dragon Scale Armour', and even then only because the bonuses were 8 stats each.

Even though most of that might be true somehow I always feel that artifacts in H5 has less purose and are in general a boring part of it.

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted October 08, 2010 01:51 AM

Having just recently replayed HoMMIII
I completely disagree, HoMMIII, from my recollection was also better, but then I played it again and well.... the artifacts quite frankly are also a point where HoMMV did it better.
That doesn't mean all 3's artifacts sucked, they had a few which could have gone and translated over to 5 but didn't make it.
In general though, 5 had a lot less flat modifiers and boring then 3 did.
Heck 3 even had a lot of artifacts that looked different but did the exact same thing.

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Radox
Radox


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2010 04:34 AM

I think that H5 has the crappiest set of artifacts (we had artifacts that gave +1 attack, +1 spellpower and +1 knowledge ... but we didn't have one that gives +1 defense. We also had "strange" artifacts that gave things such as "+1 defense and +1morale" and we had TWO artifacts that gave +2 spellpower...), while H4 had the most diverse set. However, that was partly due to the different gameplay system it had.

After all, I don't think the H3 artifacts were all that bad - at least, they had some kind of order and were clear. If they can keep the H3 artifact system with adding 10-15 unique effect artifacts like MrDragon said, it will be perfect

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted October 08, 2010 07:19 AM

Quote:
I think that H5 has the crappiest set of artifacts (we had artifacts that gave +1 attack, +1 spellpower and +1 knowledge ... but we didn't have one that gives +1 defense.

Yes we did. Two of them actually, one also giving +1 morale and the other 25% water protection.
____________
Then what's your excuse for that
steady stream of mindless
pollution that you call talking,
Edwin?

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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 08, 2010 08:30 AM

Oooh, init arties...
____________

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted October 08, 2010 09:01 AM
Edited by MrDragon at 10:57, 08 Oct 2010.

Ok, let us DIRECTLY compare HoMMIII and HoMMV.

First primary attribute artifacts.

HoMMIII:
20 Artifacts with flat +X to attribute Y.
4 Artifacts with +12 or +10 to attribute X and -3 or -2 to Attribute Y.
8 Artifacts with +X to attribute Y and Z.
6 Artifacts with +X to all attributes.

3 Artifacts with +1 Morale.
3 Artifacts with +1 Luck.
1 Artifact with +1 Morale AND Luck.
1 Artifact with +3 Morale AND Luck.
1 Artifact with "negate all luck."
1 Artifact with "negate all morale."

HoMMV:
12 Artifacts which only effect primary attributes and have no other effects.
7 Artifacts which only effect luck and/or morale of either yourself or enemy units.
4 Artifacts which only effect primary attributes and either luck or morale.
24 Artifacts which effect primary attributes, or luck/morale AND have a secondary effect.

Lets look at the score so far in this category.
HoMMIII:
46 flat static artifacts, several of which are duplicates of each other.
2 Artifacts with unique effects.

HoMMV:
23 flat static artifacts, none of which are duplicates of each other.
24 artifacts which have flat static benefits but also a secondary effect, of those effects, 9 effect initiative, 4 give immunity to specific spells, 3 give elemental modifiers and 5 have unique effects, and 3 change the values of the attributes given.

Disclaimer: Not every artifact must be "special" it's ok to have some simple flat static artifacts.

HoMMIII:
48 artifacts counted, 4.16% was unique.
47 artifacts counted, 51.06% varied from unusual to unique.

Round 1 for artifact diversity goes to HoMMV.

Gods this is annoying, not doing EVERY artifact in 1 sitting, that's just madness.
I will review this list when I got some spare time and then continue with the next round of artifacts in addition to double checking this list.

Edit: Found 2 more artifacts I forgot to count, brings HoMMV above 50%.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit2:
TIME FOR ROUND 2, SPELL ARTIFACTS!

HoMMIII:
4 +50% damage of element artifacts, 1 of each.
4 Books of spells, 1 for each element.
1 Scroll for each spell.
1 Hat for being able to learn all spells.
8 pendants with immunity to certain spell.
1 orb with immunity to dispell magic.
1 cloak which prevents spells of 3rd level and higher from being cast.
1 orb which prevents ALL magic.
3 Artifacts which enhance mana gained per turn.
3 Artifacts which provide resistance.
1 Which negates resistance.
3 Which extend durations.
Total: 31.


HoMMV:

6 Magic resistance, varying from 10% to all, 20% to all, 25% to specific to 50% specific.
4 +50% damage to element artifacts.
4 Books of spells, 1 for each school.
1 Wand for each spell.
1 Scroll for each spell.
1 Book for being able to learn level 4 spells, if you have the appropriate perk in addition to it's other benefits.
4 Artifacts with immunity to certain magic.
1 Staff which negates resistances.
1 Cloak which negates immunity to mind effecting magic.
1 Ring which halves mana cost.
1 Necklace which gives you mana when enemy casts spells.
1 Unique artifact for the spell summon elementals.
1 Spell which weakens summoned units and grants banish.
Total: 27.

Now lets cross off the ones they have in common shall we?
Immunity to specific spell, spell books, spell scrolls (and for fairness, spell wands), 50% enhancers.

That leaves:
13 for HoMMIII, 3 of which are mana regen outside of combat items, 3 are resistance, 3 of which extend durations, so 7 unique effects.
13 for HoMMV, 6 of which provide some form of restistance, so 8 unique effects.

Round 2 goes to HoMMV as well, but this one was CLOSE.

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted October 08, 2010 10:35 AM
Edited by MrDragon at 11:49, 08 Oct 2010.

Yes I'm double posting, but this is getting silly.
I just have to, otherwise we'll end up with a ridiculously huge post.

ROUND 3!
COMBAT ARTIFACTS!

HoMMIII:

Bow of no range penalty!
3 Artifacts which enhance creature hitpoints.
3 Artifacts that make surrenders cheaper.
3 Artifacts which increase movement speed of units.
3 Artifacts which increase ranged unit damage.
1 Artifact which prevents both sides from retreating.

13 Artifacts, unique 5 effects.

HoMMV:

Bow of no range penalty!
1 Artifact that enhances creature hitpoints.
1 Artifact that increases creature damage.
10 Artifacts that effect initiative.
1 Artifact that enhances all your warmachines.
1 Artifact which prevents both sides from retreating.
1 Artifact which increases ranged unit attack and gives unlimited ammo. (to be fair, this is basically an artifact ammo-cart.)
1 Artifact which increases unit speed by 1.

17 Artifacts, 8 unique effects.

Again, HoMMV takes the Round.
This time Round 3.

Please note, that HoMMV's total artifact count is significantly lower in the end, many artifacts overlap, we'll get to that later.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit:
Round 4, Everything else.

HoMMIII:

2 that effect line of sight.
3 that effect eagle eye.
2 that increase land movement.
1 that increases sea movement.
1 which allows you to summon/scuttle boats, be immune to unit loss from whirlpools and increase sea movement.*
1 which allows you to walk on water.
1 which allows you to fly.
5 that increase unit production.
3 that increase gold income.
6 that increase other resource income, 1 for each.
1 that increases necromancy.

26 artifacts, 14 effects, but of those 14 effects 1 has 6 veriants.
Edit4: Judges call forth Sea Captain's hat for a doping test.
Sea Captain's hat returns with a massive grin and clean status.
Sea Captain's hat adds 3 new effects to the HoMMIII team as it had 4 functions, 3 of which are unique, bringing the total to 14 effects.

HoMMV:

1 that effects line of sight.
*3 which increases gold income
*2 which increase unit production
*1 that increases diplomacy
1 that increases movement
1 that allows you to walk on water
1 that allows you to fly
1 that gives you a random resource each day
1 that increases your faction specific skill, even above mastery.
2 that increase experience gain
1 that increases sea movement
*same artifact present in all 3 categories.

HoMMV tried to cheat with a 3 in one deal but we spotted it 13 artifacts, 11 effects

HoMMIII wins, easily, thanks to Sea Captain's Hat!
HoMMV is shouted at for cheating within a bracket to get artifact inflation.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit2:
Round 5: TOTAL ARTIFACT COUNT!

Don't have to count.
HoMMIII wins, really REALLY REALLY HARD.
Especially seeing as many of HoMMVs artifacts have multiple effects, so while individual brackets may suggest a balance, many of HoMMV's artifacts entered the brackets more then once.


Edit3:
Looking at the numbers so far, I stand by my decision, if they are going to take a leaf out of the book of a previous Heroes, I suggest taking the tome labeled "Number 5" over "Number 3" without a shadow of a doubt.

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Kien
Kien


Hired Hero
posted October 08, 2010 04:05 PM

Whatever facts are shown here, I felt the artifacts in H5 was somehow boring and too rare. Fun wise it felt like a failed part of the game.

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Seddy
Seddy


Known Hero
Spinner of delicious cupcakes
posted October 08, 2010 04:50 PM

What I like about artifacts is combining them. Some individual artifacts are fun on their own, but some part of my brain just goes WIEEEEEEEEEEEE when I see combinations. And by this I don't just mean sets (like Dwarwen arties in V or the necromancy set in III), even though they are even more fun. But combining a lot of -morale arties kindof makes it your specialty ^^

But more sets and combinations would be fun, and it would be really fun IF the same artifact could be used in different sets! Then you'd have to choose! Use the unicorn mane to make an awesome bow set, or draw upon it's magic-repelling qualities and use it in a magic resistance set.

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted October 08, 2010 06:19 PM

Excellent point seddy, now I just have to work out an objective way to fit that into another round.

As for Kien, seriously m8, I thought along similar lines until I downloaded Heroes III complete for a few euros a few days ago and played it again.
The rose colored specs came off.
Good Old Games has Heroes III complete for digital download, worth a buy if you can't find your disc anymore.

Maybe it's that my youthful sense of wonder has since died out and made way for cold analytical cynicism and a tactics junky.
(I blame today's endless parade of brown FPS games with a sequel every year that is just an engine upgrade and another cliched American powertrip campaign.)

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MattII
MattII


Supreme Hero
posted October 08, 2010 06:55 PM

IMO sets work better, you can get the effects in bits, whereas with combo artefacts you need every single piece to get anything out of them.

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted October 08, 2010 07:19 PM

One thing I did in HoMMV which I never did in HoMMIII was carry several back-up artifacts for the same slots on my heroes, changing them up depending on what units I had available at the time or what I'd be fighting.

Example:
I got a nice Cursed Ring, it's luck modifier really reducing damage intake.
I also got an Elemental Waistband when I started with a random arti, great for trashing early stacks.
But I just built my succubus dwelling and now I've got kickass shooters and my Demon Lord can't summon those elementals often yet, with his abysmal Wisdom.
Fortunately, I have a Dragon Eye ring, and I'm swapping that in, the initiative bonus for my Succubi being pretty sweet.
I'm keeping the Elemental Waistband on me though, if I see a tougher stack and got some mana to burn, I swap in the band and summon some elementals to help put on the hurt and block off and soak up damage.

Other example, same game, later:
Got both the pendant of Mastery and the Dragonteeth necklace.
The pendant boosts my gating and allows my Devils to gate, pretty damn good, but those Teeth give me a nice set bonus now that I have multiple dragon pieces.
Gating Devils is my preffered choice, but I lost quite a number in my last battle and the gating bonus isn't that big, the Necklace will be better, for now, but in a week or two, Gating those Devils will definitely be worth it.

Next example, same game, much later:
Sweet mother of mercy, I got the Ring of Sar-Issus, course I got around 200 something mana, so I don't need it, but I'll keep it on me.
Wouldn't ya know it! few battles down the line, I got into quite a few scrapes, Hellfire procced a lot and I cast a lot of curses to really mess up their tactics, not to mention spamming Curse of the Netherworld whenever viable, damage is not great but hits everything, it's more effecient then hitting stuff.
Problem is, I'm down to 74 mana, time to swap out my Dragon Eye ring for that little Sar-Issus toy, that ought to keep me trucking for a while.

Ever had a situation like that?
I hope Artifacts in HoMMVI will recreate a similar, no a better version of that experience, with even more subtle qualitative effects leading to an even greater variety of tactical choices.
I swap my artis around a lot and mix and match different ones at different times for different reasons, it's one of the things I really think HoMMV did great, but there is plenty of room to improve.

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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
Really, Ubisoft?
posted October 09, 2010 02:21 AM

On thing I really liked about Heroes 3 was that there was a really wide range of artifacts with the SAME effect but different strength: +1 Attack, +2 Attack, +3 Attack, +4 Attack, +5 Attack, +6 Attack, etc. Yes, I actualy liked this, because it ment you could always hunt for a BETTER sword, to upgrade your existing one.

I also liked how ATTACK artifacts were always Right Hand, Defence artifacts always left hand, etc. It ment that you would always have room for exactly one artifact with focus on each attribute.

Heroes 5 artifacts seemed somewhat more random and less thought through. More unique, perhaps, but I like systems.
____________
| Heroes 6 - News overview

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted October 09, 2010 02:56 AM

Well I think HoMMV tried to make every artifact "count" so to speak and not be obsolete due to a superior version.
But yes, hunting for upgrades has it's charms and is another excellent point for the HoMMIII system.

It brought on an idea though.
Maybe introduce a simple crafting system, allowing players to make simple artifacts or upgrade stronger ones.
Of course this is something that has to be done VERY carefully to make it unique.

Seems like a far-off chance though, that is something that would benefit strongly from multiple advanced resources instead of one.
Unless you use artifacts themselves as crafting materials, merging them so to speak.
Might be worth investigating for the expansion, I mean it's hard to imagine how it would be put into effect exactly but it could possibly be a good addition.

Finally to give a neat little overview of my comparisons (so far)

1) Attribute/Luck/Morale artifacts.
HoMMV had greater variety despite near identical artifact count.

2) Spell artifacts.
Again, HoMMV but this was a close match.

3) Combat artifacts.
Again HoMMV, wider margin then round 2 but not very big one either.

4) Misc artifacts.
HoMMIII came out a good deal ahead here.

5) Total artifact count.
Didn't even bother, HoMMIII won by miles.

Just to make sure, people understand that my numbers are objective and do show HoMMIII beat HoMMV in some areas.
Of course these numbers can be interpreted many ways, I'd say my interpretation was pretty objective though.

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