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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Heroes: A Force to be Reckoned With
Thread: Heroes: A Force to be Reckoned With This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT»
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted February 04, 2002 11:27 AM bonus applied.

Heroes: A Force to be Reckoned With

Yes, many things in Heroes IV have taken a step up, become more valuable, and are more versatile, and have more uses. But none more so than the Heroes of Heroes IV, in my opinion. Not only are Heroes more involved in combating other armies, but their overall importance in Heroes IV has skyrocketed, and rightly so. Heroes now earn the right to have the game named after them. Isn’t what this was intended to be about, Heroes? Just a few of the new skills they possess can greatly alter an army’s chances on a map. In my opinion, lately, Heroes have been dwarfed by the seemingly important discussions of creatures, and how they look. When it comes down to it, we have to accept the way it is, and deal with it. Heroes are now extremely important, and the classes and ways a hero interacts and enhances the game play around others is phenomenal. So, obviously, there are many things to find out about Heroes in the game where they are probably the most important feature in the game at last. And we’re probably not going to find out everything until the game is out, so let us discuss a Heroes newly changed effects on others on the battlefield, on the map, and anywhere you wish. You may also express your thoughts and opinions on the way Heroes have turned out in this game. And of course, post any new information you find about Heroes here.

What we’ve noticed of years playing without Heroes playing an active role in battle situations is that the ‘Heroes’ has been taken out of Heroes of Might and Magic, was it even there at all? Heroes are now a common, strategic part of battle situations, and therefore, must be able to learn and administer different battling capabilities associated with being a proficient fighter or spell caster. This means the creatures in the army sometimes have to live with missing out on skills such as archery, where the hero takes the skill, and the missile units in your army receive bonuses. Although there are ways of making creatures muster some bonuses, and they come under a group name, which in this case, is Combat, which includes resistance, archery and toughness.
Heroes entering combat takes away from the creatures uniqueness and predominant cause, but in turn, gives Heroes the chance to prove themselves on the battlefield.
Although creatures will still dominate the battlefield, Heroes also boost the army with specialties and spells, as well as using their own physical force.

One of many interviews that have arisen has given us a very good perspective on how the Hero level up system will work. It is now obvious that once one decides to learn Nobility and Order, the hero will become a Wizard King. As one would expect, each of the 36 + 1 special class has their own benefits and hindrances. The decisions making process with this particular skill table, has much to do with the constitution of the 2 magic spheres that your hero is proficient in. This enables the hero to reflect on their skills in the best possible way. Although the exact benefits of being in a certain class is not clear as yet, but telling by the name, for instance ‘Warlock’, one would realise immediately that the hero excelled in magic, especially somewhat arcane.


Apart from the new skills and physical side of heroes, the procedure in which one recruits and chooses heroes has also apparently changed. If you have viewed any of the recent screenshots regarding heroes, you may well know that heroes may be either male or female. This possible change occurs in the Tavern, where it shows the hero’s biography, name, as well as price and skills. Heroes are now situated on a ‘wheel’ where there are a might and magic hero for every alignment. Therefore, there will be 6 recruitable heroes, as two alignments not shown on the wheel. This is because they are the two opposite alignments, in which heroes are not able to be recruited from. In total, there are 11 recruitable hero types, including Stronghold’s Barbarian and Haven’s Archmage.
Although I think it is not possible to recruit heroes from opposite alignments, but I am not sure about this. The standard hero is now $500 dollars cheaper, for what reason; we have yet to find out. In Heroes IV it is globally known that you may up load images from your hard drive, and place them in as a hero picture. Not only that, but there is a possibility you may also create a biography, name, and class. This makes hero’s more customable and creative, which also brings more depth into the game.

Another great addition to castles that has a great deal to do with heroes is the Prison, which is a standard structure, much like the tavern in previous Heroes versions. Once heroes are defeated in battle in any way, they are captured and incarcerated in the opponent’s prison. In order to release the hero, the castle must be defeated. That information is quite obvious to people who have been following Heroes IV’s development. What isn’t so obvious is what the hero will retain from their glory days in the battlefield. A question that immediately arises to my head is the independent creature-hero link; are the creatures lost because of this? Also, I would have reason to believe that surrendering and retreating has returned. This could also have an impact as to what artifacts and creatures are left. I haven’t heard about an army being incarcerated in a prison, so the cost of surrendering could be just for the artifacts and other equipped items, such as a spell book or tome, if there is such a thing in Heroes IV. (A tome)

Although Heroes are relied on less, overall throughout the course of the game, their importance has undergone a meteoric rise. Having a hero in battle is a fairly large asset, and since there is quite a large selection of heroes available in the tavern, it makes it easier to find the one that is suited to the particular map and developments. Heroes are recruitable only once per week, if my memory serves me correctly, and I have no guarantee at all that it will! This will constitute for siezing the moment at times when a perfect hero for your gameplan arrives, even if it means sacrificing recruiting creatures for that day. As the importance of heroes rises, they can be likened to a King in a Chess game, important, but in this case, also powerful. At low levels, heroes will fall easily to a level 3 creature, and must be used with caution, because not only the presence of a hero counts, but the development of him/her does, too.
The development of heroes extends the previous ones. The predominant reason for this is the heroes ‘late’ inclusion into battles. Now, a combat situation takes more than just spellpoints, and for a barbarian, not even that is easily accomplished. Barbarians for example, are much more proficient in the ways of the sword and battle axe. This why new combat skills have been introduced to help their cause in battle. Single skills will no longer affect the whole army, but the hero himself. This is also another step closer to seeing ‘independent’ creatures. Aquiring skills is also helped by gaining Hit Points every level gained. This will make heroes more potent in battle. Although the last information I received about how many HP heroes went up per level was months ago, and most likely to have changed. Approximately 20 HP for all hero alignments except Stronghold, which gains 65 per level. But please, don’t hold me to this and use it as evidence.

To sum up, I think I speak for everyone by saying Heroes have been the sole biggest change on how we approach our gameplay when Heroes IV does actually get realeased sometime in the near future. A change that will only get better as time goes on, and is a worthy addendum to our favourite game. Also the adjoinments that came with it, also change the creatures role in battle, as they have to leanr to coencide with heroes as the new competitor for supremacy. Although, if we don’t learn more about them, and see them in action, I don’t think we’ll be able to critique them too much. So please, if you have something to add, do so.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
posted February 04, 2002 11:37 AM

yet another great (and long) post

actually, i've been waiting for that change a long time... the role Heroes start to play is closer to my playing style and mapmaking... so, in short I welcome that change... it was about time to play HEROES of Might and Magic ...the game may be turning into a RPG/TBS hybrid, but this is what it should be like from the very beginning...
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Dreams of Darkness nWoD IRC Chronicle, set in Edinburgh

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Linkki
Linkki


Adventuring Hero
posted February 04, 2002 11:58 AM

I can't write a long reply now as I have to go, but I'll talk shortly about this thing that came to mind:
Don't you think it's weird that this game is called "Heroes of Might and Magic" while the series where you play with the heroes is called only Might and Magic. Or am I the only one finding that strange?

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted February 04, 2002 01:13 PM

"In my opinion, lately, Heroes have been dwarfed by the seemingly important discussions of creatures, and how they look."

Yes, especially because there may be more animations of hero classes than of creatures. 37 classes * 2 sexes makes 74 animations, which is more than the current number of creatures.

"What we?ve noticed of years playing without Heroes playing an active role in battle situations is that the ?Heroes? has been taken out of Heroes of Might and Magic, was it even there at all?"

In H3 having a good hero leading your army is much more important than the army itself. I've attacked Legions of creatures with a strictly inferior army and won just because the Hero casts spell or because the hero adds attack and defence and luck and morale to the creatures in the army.

The changes wrought will actually reduce the importance of heroes in battles and leave it more to the creatures in the army to win the day.

However, a place where heroes will keep their importance is when it comes to pre-combat effects (charm and diplomacy) and post-combat effects (necromancy, ressurrection, summoning).

Another important change is that you will want heroes to develope their skills because some of these skills (like Nobility and Scouting) will now benefit your Kingdom in the forms of bonuses. To gain XP they need to fight combats ...

"Combat, which includes resistance, archery and toughness."

Combat is the skill affecting only the Hero. The Comat skill gives bonuses to health, and the subskills are Melee, Magic resistance and Archery. There has been some changes lately here. Reminds me to update my Primary skill analysis thread.. oppss...

"Although creatures will still dominate the battlefield, Heroes also boost the army with specialties and spells, as well as using their own physical force."

Actually, the creatures will take over the domination from the hero, who often dominated in heroes 1-3. The hero will probably no longer be able to take out all the opponents just by casting one powerful spell.

"One of many interviews that have arisen has given us a very good perspective on how the Hero level up system will work. It is now obvious that once one decides to learn Nobility and Order, the hero will become a Wizard King."

Nah, actually I'm not sure about how all of this will be handled at all. To qualify for an advanced class the hero must have at least Expert in the primary skills for it.

However, some vague comments I saw from Gus on Angelspit's forum made me begin to speculate on a few things.

For one thing, the advanced class could perhaps change as you pick new skills and if you develope them instead of your initial choices. So if you're a Witch King and makes Combat your best skill, you may very well find your rank of Witch King changed to Warlord.

On the other hand, I find it disappointing that the only thing the advanced classes change is the (combat) animation of the hero, and the fact that it appears to have no effect on what happens at level-up and so on.

"As one would expect, each of the 36 + 1 special class has their own benefits and hindrances."

They do? Actually, everything I've seen so far points to the fact that they affect only graphics. Where did you get this information?

"?Warlock?, one would realise immediately that the hero excelled in magic, especially somewhat arcane."

Actually, that's all what the name does. It tells you which two primary classes you have developed the most. That and change animations. There appear to be no 'real' benefits of having/being a special class.

"This is because they are the two opposite alignments, in which heroes are not able to be recruited from."

That's true, and normally you wouldn't want to pick those heroes anyway, since their classes are prone to learn magic which will not be taught in the town's own mage guild.

"Although I think it is not possible to recruit heroes from opposite alignments, but I am not sure about this."

My hope is that the heores offered in the Tavern depends on the Town type. So if you control different town types, you could possibly recruit any type of hero, but you'll still be restricted as to in which town you recruit them.

"The standard hero is now $500 dollars cheaper, for what reason; we have yet to find out."

Actually, Gus said that the price varied between heroes classes. I don't recall the exact numbers but something between 1000-2500 Gold depending on Hero class. So the class decides the price.

"A question that immediately arises to my head is the independent creature-hero link; are the creatures lost because of this?"

That could depend a bit on the design of the game and you have to separate the different winning conditions of the battle.

1. The enemy Fled with 'dead' heroes on the field.
In this case the 'dead' heroes could be put in prison or tombstoned. The designers could also decide that the fleing army brought along the corpse. The only troops the enemy would retain in this case is heroes, since as in previous games all the creatures are lost.


2. The enemy Surrendered with 'dead' heroes on the field. Same consideration as fleeing except that the enemy gets to keep the creatures and have to pay for safe passage. In this case I'd be inclined to say that 'dead' heroes should be taken along by the surrendering party.

For both fleeing and surrendering I'd want to see that only the hero can select this option as a combat action. So if the army has no heroes (or they're dead) the remaining creatures cannot retreat or surrender.

3. The enemy was defeated. In this case the enemy will get the choice to either tombstone the heroes in the defeated army or put them in prison.

For any hero that you get the choice to Tombstone/Imprison you get the artifacts they were carrying, and probably the same if you take out a complete creature stack and they were carrying artifacts.

If you don't get the option to tombstone/imprison, then you don't get the artifacts that hero is carrying.

Though I doubt you will pay for artifacts. The enemy should not know you what artifacts you have. Heroes should pay according to their level, which reflects their worth.

"Heroes are recruitable only once per week, if my memory serves me correctly, and I have no guarantee at all that it will!"

I haven't seen this information in clear print. I'd like to see a one Hero/Tavern limit. This means that the Tavern produces 'Heroes' and also limits the number you can have. It's then up to the mapmaker to disable Tavern's in some towns if they want to limit Hero recruiting. Anyway, that's my wish.

"This will constitute for siezing the moment at times when a perfect hero for your gameplan arrives, even if it means sacrificing recruiting creatures for that day."

Actually, the offered heroes will never change, at least not if you have control over only one town type. You will always be offered exactly the same hero classes (those allied with the town's alignment).


____________
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StormWarning
StormWarning


Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
posted February 05, 2002 08:41 PM

From recent screenshots, it appears that a powerful hero has better stats than any 4th level creature (Sandro, as a level 34 Assassin, had 400+ hp and a 60 defense). So heroes will be a huge factor in combat - especially if 4th level creatures are hard to get.
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The calm before the storm is about to end.

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Oldtimer
Oldtimer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
posted February 05, 2002 10:50 PM

It seems to me that the advanced classes will be difficult to change.  

Primary --- Secondary --- Secondary --- Secondary
Level 0 --- Level 1 ----- Level 2 ----- Level 3
Level 7 --- Level 6 ----- Level 5 ----- Level 4
Level 11--- Level 10----- Level 9 ----- Level 8

Primary --- Secondary --- Secondary --- Secondary
Level 12--- Level 13----- Level 14----- Level 15
Level 19--- Level 18 ---- Level 17 ---- Level 16
Level 23--- Level 22 ---- Level 21 ---- Level 20

To have an advanced hero class you will need to be level 23 assuming that you need expert in the subskills to get expert in the prime skill.  If you only need advanced subskills you will still be level 17 when you get your advanced class.

Saying this we need to find out how difficult it will be to gain higher levels.  If gaining levels is realatively difficult it means that you will not have enough time to develop proficiency in 3 primary skills,(Which means that an archmage will have to be a minimum of level 35 or 26).

Your begining choice will be the one you will have to develop, making hero classes very unique.  It seems to me after reading interviews and such that the developers have intentionally made it difficult to develop that well rounded hero who is good at all 5 primary possibilities.  Are you really going to choose a basic skill at the upper levels when gaining levels becomes increasingly difficult?  No, you are going to increase you mastery to grand mastery.


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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>

"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."

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Linkki
Linkki


Adventuring Hero
posted February 06, 2002 12:03 AM

Actually you need only two of the three secondary skills to advance the primary, so the level requirement gets down by six to 17.

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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted February 06, 2002 11:55 AM

I'm actually not sure yet if I like this change or not, I sort of liked it when the hero stood in the background, like a general surveying his troops. But it will probably be neat to have a superhero running around slaying defenceless creatures on the battlefield as well.

But as Djive pointed out, the hero influence will apparently decreace somewhat, especially since his (or hers) attack and defence stats won't apply to the entire army anymore. I'm not sure if your spell statement is backed by facts (it probably is, "knowing" you, I just haven't read anything about it), have spells indeed been toned down in power?

And I agree that it's disappointing that the class is just a label, and not providing any advantages and drawbacks.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted February 06, 2002 12:33 PM

Quote:
I'm not sure if your spell statement is backed by facts (it probably is, "knowing" you, I just haven't read anything about it), have spells indeed been toned down in power?


There was one early interview on this. However, with all the playtesting and balancing going on it's impossible to say for sure.

One thing that has been changed is that global spells now affects the hero as well. So casting Armageddon (or other global damge spells) may just get yourself killed as well. For this reason Magic Resistance may be a very useful skill for the magic hero also. Before it was enough that you had a creature immune to the spell... Now, you had better make your hero immune as well.


For the Archmage skill you need Expert in 3 Primary Magic skills. These have requirements as follows:
Basic - No prereq.
Advanced - 1 secondary skill promotions required.
Expert - 2 secondary skill promotions required.
Master - 3 secondary skill promotions required.
Grand Master - 4 secondary skill promotions required.

(The requirements are always towards the two secondaries that increas spell points and effectiveness of spells. The primary is used as a prerequisite towards the third secondary, so you don't need the third secondary skill at all... On ther other hand that skill is the most useful one so you'd probably want it anyway.)

So for Expert you need Basic+Advanced+Expert (=3) of the primary skills + 0 + 1+ 2 Secondary skills promotions. For a total of 3+3 = 6 promotions.

For three skills that adds up to 18 promotions, and if you start with a Magic Hero that means you have two of these from the start. This means (barring you get some of the promotions from universities or similar) that you need to be level 17 to become an Archmage.

For the pre-requisites between the skills, read Pyromancer's thread. I believe it lists the prerequisites dependicies.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Oldtimer
Oldtimer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
posted February 06, 2002 07:23 PM

I guess my calculations are wrong but you do need advanced on the "Power" and "Knowlege" skills to get expert magic,(The Special Skill, reserection, charm, etc. don't say they are a requirement of advancing the primary magic skill) but that still makes 7 promotions to get an expert magic so you would need 21 promotions to be an archmage.  And in my opinion that is alot so my theory that changing advanced classes is still valid.

I think that you will 2 need experts to gain an advanced class, so if everything follows suit, you would need 14 promotion to get there.  After that I suppose that you could start building a third primary up, but will you have a better advantage having a hero waste upper level promotions on basic skills, or to develop another hero to get those skills that you need.  I believe that it will be much easier and economical to have two heroes in your army and develop them to compliment each other's skills.
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StormWarning
StormWarning


Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
posted February 06, 2002 09:44 PM

No, Oldtimer, you need one of the two Power/Knowledge secondaries (I think it's usually the first one listed) at Advanced and the other at Basic (according to the recent Gamepen preview). Assuming that the other primaries work similarly (which I'm too lazy to go back and check ), it's a total of 12 skills (assuming you get the perfect picks and don't take any others, which is unlikely) needed to be an advanced class, which occurs at level 11 (10 for Barbarians, who start with 3 skills at level 1) - or, of course, 18 skills for an Archmage (at level 17).
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The calm before the storm is about to end.

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Oldtimer
Oldtimer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
posted February 06, 2002 10:17 PM

Okay, whatever, but the point is the tactics behind your hero development.  Once you get to the upper levels it still takes more xp to gain the next level.  Are you really going to waste that level promotion on a basic skill in your third primary or will you advance the skills that you are proficient in.  If you have a magic user, the choice will be to get basic combat vs. getting level 4 spells quicker.  Heroes are going to be very important, but you will never reach level 99 to get a well rounded hero. (Unless you play some crazy battlefest scenario)
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>

"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted February 07, 2002 02:02 AM

You may just want to get Expert in the Primary Magic skill, just because the primary skill is used as a prereuisite for the third secondary (Charm, Necromancy, Ressurection ...).

So just becoming an Archmage for the magic is probably a bad idea, but doing it to get a high level of the Third skill might be a good idea... And with a bit a luck with Witch Huts, Universities and similar you could skip some corners here. You cna get skills (at least on basic level) without using a level-up promotion, and I'd say that this would be more common now. In heroes 3 you usually wasted the money, because your main would likely become an Expert in all 8 secondaries anyway. In heroes 4, you may want to buy skills just to speed up your advancement.

Another question is whether there'll be any structures which can teach skills beyond the basic level. The existence of such structures may very well change your priorities in how many skills you can conceivably develope.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted February 07, 2002 07:40 AM

Heroes Skills, and Such Things

A great discussion going on here, I'm just sorry I wasn't able to post a few myself! The First few days of high school can get quite hectic.
But onto more pressing matters, in terms of Heroes community.

"In H3 having a good hero leading your army is much more important than the army itself. I've attacked Legions of creatures with a strictly inferior army and won just because the Hero casts spell or because the hero adds attack and defence and luck and morale to the creatures in the army."

I disagree with that point. Yes, having a hero is very good, and definitely boosts many aspects of the army. But unless you have creatures, you can fight. If you have a high level hero, you are also most likely to have multitues of high level creatures, which do a great amount of damage on their own accord, anyway. Most of the time, you put your strongest creatures with your strongest hero, as one would get the most benefits this way. Having a really powerful hero commanding a few peasants is biasing your side of the comment, it also is pretty unlikely in usual play.
In my opinion, heroes play a more DIRECT and active role in combat situations than they used to. But as you said, if there is a strong hero commanding a small army, which is unlikely, mind you, the hero is pressed to do more work, and deal heavier damage. A hero still has those great spellcasting abilities, although none of their skills translate to creatures. This means the heroes use the skills they've learnt, and projected on themselves, and not on creatures which makes them weaker, and heroes stronger, and most likely more important. Thats how I see it anyway.

"The hero will probably no longer be able to take out all the opponents just by casting one powerful spell."

Why not? The same spellcasting abilities will still be there, it is just that heroes now have the opportunity to show off their physical strength, which will benefit the barbarian army, as spellcasting wasn't exactly their cup of tea. Basically, what I'm trying to really here, is that heroes will keep their old skills plus, use physical fighting skills aswell.

"They do? Actually, everything I've seen so far points to the fact that they affect only graphics. Where did you get this information?"

Well, I would find it a bit silly if they started this table on classes without any real meaning, but if you look at the logic on how to BECOME these classes, you will see why. Onviously nobility and order make a Wizard King. But it isn't actually the class, it is the skills which involbe the class. I think they just created a fancy name to go with the skills they specialise in. ;P. For example, learning nobility and order will have effects on your gameplan, as you may not be able to learn others that suit the map. So, yes, thats were the 'info' is from.

"ctually, Gus said that the price varied between heroes classes. I don't recall the exact numbers but something between 1000-2500 Gold depending on Hero class. So the class decides the price."

Hmmm. Never saw that, although I'll take your honestwrod for it. This means some classes will overall be better than others. I am really not sure if i'm with that change.

There probably are a few structures, out of the the 300 new ones already available that boost more than a basic skill. I think that the highest we can hope for is an Expert skill level teaching, as there are now 5, and there were 3, so teaching an advanced in Heroes IV, would be considered about a basic in HeroesIII.

I agree here with StormWarning, I also believe only one of the two is needed to reach advanced level. Strom doesn't usually say much, but when he does, he knows it.

For using strategies on hero level ups, it would be wise to diversify which skills you learn, as I think you will be able to change classes when one skill overtakes another in the majority standings. So, I would like to keep all my skill levels quite even.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Oldtimer
Oldtimer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
posted February 07, 2002 08:28 AM
Edited By: Oldtimer on 20 Feb 2002

Quote:
For using strategies on hero level ups, it would be wise to diversify which skills you learn, as I think you will be able to change classes when one skill overtakes another in the majority standings. So, I would like to keep all my skill levels quite even.


I disagree(as you can tell from my earlier posts).  If you try to maintain even skills levels you are going to be at the tactical disadvantage.  It seems clear that the game is designed for hero specialization and uniqueness. (thats the whole point of the new skill structure) so those jack of all trade, even skill level heros are going to be wiped out by the specialists.

 Lets say that you have gained 40 promotions through various means.  If you evenly distribute the skills over your 5 primary skills, You will have 20 skills at the advanced level.  Each skill will help you a little but what is the agregate benefit?  If you pump those 40 promotions into two Primary skills you will have grand master in 8 skills.  Lets say you are that order/nobility hero, you get advantages on creature generation & economics plus all the order spells and alot of charm.  This hero will be of alot more use than that well rounded hero and you spent the same amount of effort creating them.
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"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted February 07, 2002 10:20 AM

Quote:
Yes, having a hero is very good, and definitely boosts many aspects of the army. But unless you have creatures, you can fight. If you have a high level hero, you are also most likely to have multitues of high level creatures, which do a great amount of damage on their own accord, anyway. Most of the time, you put your strongest creatures with your strongest hero, as one would get the most benefits this way.


My point was that if you develope your scouts they can take the burden of scouting new land from your best hero. Or rather you can expand your frontiers in many directions. A hero with high spell power high-level damaging spells and a few Phoenixes often doesn't need any more creatures to take mines neutral towns or vanquish enemy scouts. And this hero will move further than your 'main'. Your best hero can't be everywhere and good map-makers will prevent you from defending/attacking everything with one hero. Besides I don't really play with a main myself. I develope several heroes to a reasonably high level.

"Having a really powerful hero commanding a few peasants is biasing your side of the comment, it also is pretty unlikely in usual play."

You don't put the hero with peasants. The unit must be fast since you want to move fast on the adventure map and you also want it to be immune to lower spell levels or Fire Magic, depending on your spell selection.


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StormWarning
StormWarning


Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
posted February 07, 2002 09:54 PM bonus applied.

Quote:
I agree here with StormWarning, I also believe only one of the two is needed to reach advanced level. Strom doesn't usually say much, but when he does, he knows it.  


Woohoo!

Oldtimer, you're probably right that it will be more effective to develop a specialized hero as opposed to a "jack of all trades." However, I think that heroes may not be completely focused into two primaries with 40 skill levels. I'd guess that you'd probably have a hero more like this:

Primary A: Grandmaster in all (20)
Primary B: Expert in all (12)
Primary C: Advanced, one secondary at advanced and one at basic (5)
Primary D: Basic, one secondary at basic (2)
Primary E: Basic, no secondaries (1)

You may want to develop a little bit in some of your "off-class" skills to help offset a few of your main weaknesses - a General focused on defensive skills might take Chaos or Death magic to help deal damage, while a Guildmaster (not really combat or magic-strong) might dabble in a few magic schools to shift the balance in combat. A magic hero might work a little on Combat for defense and resistance (since the magic is no use if you get taken out by an Implosion or a few thousand Crossbowmen first).
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Oldtimer
Oldtimer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
posted February 07, 2002 10:13 PM bonus applied.

But is it more effective to give your specialized hero basic skills in off primaries or to build up another hero.  I think that since we can have two or more heros in and army, it will be more economical to build two complimenatary heros that work together well and compensate for weaknesses.  

Example

level 1 100xp
level 2 200xp
level 3 400xp
level 4 800xp
level 5 1600xp
level 6 3200xp
level 7 6400xp
level 8 12800xp
level 9 25600xp
level 10 51200xp

Lets say you are going from level 9 to level 10 (I just made up this scale) you can advance your primary skill to master or choose another basic skill.  If you choose the basic skill it cost your hero 25,600 xp and it will cost another 51200xp to advance to master next time.  Instead you could have had a second hero advance 9 promotions for the same experience.  

I'm sure we are going to go with our heroes three instincts and try to build a broadbased hero but I am also sure that some are going to find that the specialized guys are more deadly and help to win the game.  The learning curve is going to be established and who ever leaves their h3 reflexes behind will be the superior player until every learns the new stratergies.
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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted February 08, 2002 07:49 AM

Hero Level Ups and Experience

Nice theory there, Oldtimer and StormWarning.
Both are quite feasible, but it actually really comes down to what gameplay style you want and how you want to approach the map. The opponents may be well advanced when it comes to the skills you specialise in, and sometimes you will need to stray off the track so you can attack them where they are not so strong.

"You may want to develop a little bit in some of your "off-class" skills to help offset a few of your main weaknesses"

Yes, if you take the same approach and excel in just a couple of skills, no matter how strong and advanced you are in them, you won't do well against others that really have great effects on your skills. So if you cover all your opponents strengths with at least a small advancement in class, you should be OK.

"But is it more effective to give your specialized hero basic skills in off primaries or to build up another hero. I think that since we can have two or more heros in and army, it will be more economical to build two complimenatary heros that work together well and compensate for weaknesses."

Very good strategy there, Oldtimer, but the most likely reality is that the resources needed to learn these skills and climb to high levels of them. Also, it is more effective to have 1 powerful hero than two mediocre ones.
I say this because you will not be able to defeat a powerful hero with one spell, as you have a better chance with a weaker one. They also do less damage and they take up two turns, and army space, probably not doing as much damage anyway.

"Instead you could have had a second hero advance 9 promotions for the same experience."

Yes, although, you could start in another field with the same hero and do that exact layout. This way, you're strengthening a strong hero that is pretty much essential in battle situations. Once you've finished upgrading your best hero, you can start focusing on your weaker heroes to back him up, and excel in the skills he doesnt.

Yes, classic Heroes III players are going to have to adapt to Heroes IV more than they did when crossing form H2 to H3 because of the heavier changes that occured in this version of the game. If one is to keep their old strategies, the most likely outcome is that they are going to struggle. Heroes IV is a different game, which requires different strategies. Heroes in combat is one of them, and obviously, we are trying to sort this out by creating this thread.
Keep posting
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"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted February 08, 2002 11:27 AM

Developing X number of heroes will depend on design decisions and game parameterrs that we with all likelihood won't know until we have the game in our hands.

The two most imortant factors are:
-Growth rate of XP to reach next level. (This was 20% approx. in H3, for levels beyond 20.)
-If you use two Heroes will they together get more XP than if you used only one. (That is will a lower level hero steal XP from the higher level hero, and if so how much?)

Other factors:
-Will Heroes who die gain XP at all if the rest of the army is victorius?

We already know that if you use more than one hero in a battle then a higher level Hero will gain more XP than the lower level one.

I believe the growth rate of XP was much too high in H3. It's ok to have high rates between levels up to 20 or so, but after that the growth rate should decline. High level heroes should not 'have' to visit a Tree of Knowledge to gain a level. 20% (as in H3) is too much and 100% increase as in Oldtimer's table makes the game unplayable. All heroes will stop developement at about the same level, no matter if the game lasts 1 month or 10 months. The rate should probably be 5-10%, and perhaps they should not use a %-age increase at all, but just slightly increase the amount of XP between levels.

So:
1000
3000
6000
10000
15000
21000
28000
35000
45000

Instead of:
1000
2000
4000
8000
16000
32000
64000
128000
256000

If you compare to H3 and assume 20% growth rate and XP theft, then your choice is between one hero at level X, two Heroes at level X-4, or three heroes with level X-6.

Will one level 50 hero stand a chance against to level 46 heroes or 3 level 44 heroes? If you just count secondary skills, one hero will have 51 skills promotions, 2 heroes will have 94 skill promotions and 3 heroes will have 135 skill promotions. I think not.

Seems to me that the obvious choice is to develope many heroes. It should be said that 'injustice' increase with level so at level 10 the numbers would be 11, 14 and 15. The reason for the injustice is that the higher the level of the hero the more you pay for the same secondary skills.

Also when it comes to developing the skills, it may be preferrable to open up all the 5 Primary skills, because then you get three choices to pick from instead of two. If you don't open up all five skills you only have two skills to pick from. However, if you want to develope one skill only, then you just refrain from opening up the second skill until you have GM in everything for the first skill.

If you open up many skills you can always hope getting the basic level at free in universities. If you focus on one primary skill only, you must more or less decline this form of tuition.
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