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| Thread: How are all the games connected? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV |
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted February 01, 2011 09:59 PM |
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Oh my God, they killed Khengi! The snows... 
By the way, I came across a little bit of a contradiction, which I posted on the discussion thread. According to that interview on celestial heavens you linked me with, Ashan has three moons. And according to the Ashan Timeline questions answered recently, Ashan has one moon. So eh, which is right? 
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted February 01, 2011 10:33 PM |
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latest official word is that there is one...
But H5 town screen has all 3 before mentioned ones.
I guess even Ashan won't be 100% coherent.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted February 01, 2011 10:46 PM |
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And indeed events between the MM games have always been at least vaguely described in their sequels, H4 inclusive - let me know if you found an exception - so doesn't your argument fall flat on its face to an extent...?
Forge, no mention, or even hinted at previously in HoMM (which is different from MM, even though it takes place in the same universe. The difference comes from the fact that one is a Sci-fi/Fantasy RPG, while the other is an apparently all fantasy TBS).
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted February 01, 2011 11:19 PM |
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Edited by vicheron at 23:21, 01 Feb 2011.
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Did you even play the game? It did not require any knowledge of the previous games. It referenced past events but only to create a backdrop in the same way that Lord of the Rings or just about any other fantasy story references mythic events in the past. The campaigns themselves did not require you to have any knowledge of those past events.
Like I said, I was disenchanted by the turn of events and the mess of the story, and partly for that reason, I could not continue playing it. I know that the new stories had little to do with the old, I just was not interested anymore.
So your complaint is that the old world is too confusing but when they wiped the plate clean by starting a new world, you lost interest because the new stories had little to do with the old story, which was too confusing for you. Do you know what a circular argument is?
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The game starts when King Gryphonheart of Erathia gets assassinated. The rival kingdoms of Eofol and Nighon take this opportunity to invade Erathia. Princess, now Queen, Catherine Gryphonheart returns from a wedding in another kingdom to defend Erathia against the invaders. She rallies the support of old allies AvLee and Bracada. Together, they push Eofol and Nighon out of Erathia. However, while this war was being waged, the Necromancers of Deyja had been secretly gathering strength and raising dead soldiers for its armies. Deyja takes this opportunity to raise King Gryphonheart as a Lich to lead its armies against Erathia. Unfortunately for the Necromancers, King Gryphonheart grows too powerful and takes over. The disgruntled Necromancers join forces with Erathia and together they defeat King Gryphonheart.
That's just the RoE campaign. So far, so good. But when you try to see the bigger picture or what happens from that point and on, and all these side stories such as with Mutare, for example, that's where someone like me who only played HoMM starts getting lost and eventually loose interest.
What happens from that point on is told in the main campaign. Eofol tries to craft Armageddon's Blade to destroy the world. Queen Catherine, her husband Roland Ironfist, and Gelu, an elven ranger go to stop them.
Those side stories didn't require you to have knowledge of other games either, they were all self contained.
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Death Star fires laser and planet goes boom.
Ring gets thrown in volcano, Giant Evil Eye goes boom.
Genesis device goes boom, new planet is created.
Seriously, how could anyone use such a plot device?
They're all pretty much different than two swords clashing to bring forth the destruction of the planet. But if they're not, then NWC's story is just as generic as Ubi's. Cause I can just say it's one of the same again, as you showed me with these examples.
How does that prove NWC's story was badly written? It's true that NWC's stories weren't completely original but that doesn't mean they're bad. Look at superhero movies, how many of them are original? Ironman is still considered a great movie and so are Spiderman, Superman, and X-Men. They're good not because of their originality but because the story was told well and engaging, characters had believable motivations (most of the time), and the acting was good.
The problem with Heroes 5 wasn't just that the world was generic but also because the story was poorly written. There were a ton of plot holes and characters did things that didn't make any sense. They had people invading each other and characters changing allegiances without explaining their reasons. Characters would have a plan one moment and then act impulsively for no reason another moment.
With NWC's story, things made sense, the different factions and characters had motivations for doing what they did and they made plans to achieve their goals. People had reasons to go fighting each other. They planned ahead and only acted impulsively when they were surprised or desperate.
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You do know that Heroes 5 based the artistic style of the Sylvans, Havens, Dwarves, and Necropolis on Warhammer too don't you?
They had to change the Inquisitor and the Treant because they were basically photocopied from Warhammer.
Also, even if NWC copied TSR, they at least made some changes to the designs so it wasn't an complete rip off like Heroes 5 did to Warhammer.
And Nival changed the Treant and Priest, so? For the rest, it's your turn to show me proof. If it turns out you're right, I will admit I'm wrong.
Priest of Sigmar
Elven Archer
Dwarf
Vampire Count
Treeman
Original Heroes 5 Treant
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 02, 2011 10:42 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:53, 02 Feb 2011.
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Pure Laziness? So you're saying that people should own every title in another series just for one expansion in this series to make sense. If anything, the lack of previous hints/explanation explanation is laziness on NWC/3DO's part. Now quit with the rich-boy, elitist attitude, and accept that the developers, being only human, can make mistakes.
Rich-boy, elitist attitude? This made my day, really! Especially the "rich boy" part.
No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that people can pay attention if they want. Do you want me to make you quick summary of all the sci-fi bits? I can. Many other people can as well. There is a short summary right in front of you on Celestial Heavens' main site. There is a Might & Magic wiki (I'm not sure, but maybe Cepheus is responsible for both). I've seen detailed discussions and similar articles about the Might & Magic titles all over the Internet. It's all about whether you want to know or not, really. Nobody asks you to buy and play "anachronistic" RPGs.
Yes, the devs and the publishers are humans and make mistakes. NWC are not perfect, 3DO - even less so. The fans, being humans too, make mistakes as well. The reaction against the Forge was ridiculous because it used the lack of knowledge as its slogan. "We don't like it" I can understand. "It does not fit the Heroes universe" is simply incorrect and thus is a stupid excuse. You see, the greatest charm of the Might & Magic games is that people don't wave super-advanced weapons in front of you all the time and you spend 95% of this time in a purely "medieval" environment. These things are well-hidden - not only physically, but also behind myths, legends and mystifications - and revealed only to very dedicated explorers. If Heroes had any problem, it was that it told only the story of the fake image that the people of Enroth (and to lesser extent - Axeoth) believed in, even though some important characters - Gavin Magnus, Archibald Ironfist, later even Roland Ironfist, could have been used as a bridge to the sci-fi part of the world. But the lack of flagrant clues is how Might & Magic has always worked and the devs can not be blamed for such a thing.
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Okay, firstly, if you're not going to play it then why do you even care?
Because in this example I'm interested in the lore of Ashan? Which is incomplete without Dark Messiah?
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Forge, no mention, or even hinted at previously in HoMM
It couldn't be hinted, the thing was re-discovered by people coming from another world via space-ship during (at the end of, to be precise) Might & Magic VII which precedes Armageddon's Blade but is after Restoration of Erathia. For the vast majority of the Enrothians, the Heavenly Forges are just another myth and following the earlier Heroes trend, it would've been presented as something "magical" at best as a side note during some short story, which most of the people would've disregarded anyway and the effect of "We didn't know!" would've been the same.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 02, 2011 10:58 AM |
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Were there any sci fi hints in Homm? Cause if so I missed them.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted February 02, 2011 11:22 AM |
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Edited by vicheron at 11:23, 02 Feb 2011.
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Were there any sci fi hints in Homm? Cause if so I missed them.
They did go with Clarke's idea that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" in the Might and Magic series. To the characters in the series, any advanced technology is considered to be magic. In fact, a lot of the artifacts like ancient swords, shields, flails, etc., are actually technological in nature or some kind of a blend between magic and technology.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 02, 2011 11:25 AM |
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Not referring to might&magic as I never played those. Heroes on the other hand.. 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 02, 2011 02:02 PM |
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@ Elvin: To awnser your question: In all the heroes games that came out there was no clue of the Sci-Fi background of the MaM universe. Not even the Kreagan were depicted as Aliens. The only attempt was in H3 AB that was made redundend like Cepheus already wrote. The Sci-fi
were only visible in RPG games. (MaM, Crusader..)
@ Cepheus I have a question on you with has very little connection to the topic, but I would like to use the oportunite.
Wee all know that some inter game facts were very messy. I have read your MaM wiki, and even tried to add some pictures but realysed I had them In CZ so they would by at no use.
The thing i would like to discus is the story of Ethric the Mad. I don't know if it was you who wrote that article, but I noticed that he was described as a good-alight wizard. This falowed his apearince in H3 SOD. But other informations (from MaM 6 and 7) showed him as an Neutral or evil Warlock and a very old lich. I always though of him as a Lich-warlock. A warlock who has turned him self into a lich, there are some other examples of Warlocks who have done the same. This was a good explanation for Sandros apierence in H1 as a Hero in Alamars armies, and also why Ethirc commanded Dungeon armies in SOD. His human apierenc could be explained the same way as Sandros Apeirenc did - via magic.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 02, 2011 02:26 PM |
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Given the info I had on him I had assumed he was a warlock that later joined the wizards, that's where Gem finds him.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 02, 2011 02:40 PM |
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That makes more sens.
Like you said, you havn't played the RPG games, were there are more informations about him. Like His tomb in Enroth and his staff (a Relic Item in MaM VI, that was for evil parties only)
It made more sens for me in the bigger picture. A mighty warlock who had sent his puepul to war on the side of his allies. two wars will past and this Puepul leaves after Archibald is defieted which makes his master furiose. He looks for him to face him on the battlefield. Unfortunately he is defieted and his body is transported back to his tomb. The only place he can still live but cannot leave it.
Sandro had the power to create iluzions so why would Ethric lack this power if he was his master.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 02, 2011 03:12 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 15:21, 02 Feb 2011.
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Were there any sci fi hints in Homm? Cause if so I missed them.
Nothing obvious, but the links to certain "sci-fi events" from M&M are more than clear. For example, the Night of the Shooting Stars is directly mentioned in (the re-worked version of) Armageddon's Blade. Now demons which arrive from the sky in the from or fireballs are not unheard of, even though I don't know if some preceding fantasy game had used this approach to introduce the antagonists, but one may begin to wonder what are these creatures doing there? In M&M VI it's shown clearly that the "meteors" are actually sophisticated hive-ships that carry the invading force.
As a slightly more "visible" clue - the regular monolith portals are likely to be technological, not magical in nature.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted February 02, 2011 03:27 PM |
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The thing i would like to discus is the story of Ethric the Mad. I don't know if it was you who wrote that article, but I noticed that he was described as a good-alight wizard. This falowed his apearince in H3 SOD. But other informations (from MaM 6 and 7) showed him as an Neutral or evil Warlock and a very old lich. I always though of him as a Lich-warlock. A warlock who has turned him self into a lich, there are some other examples of Warlocks who have done the same. This was a good explanation for Sandros apierence in H1 as a Hero in Alamars armies, and also why Ethirc commanded Dungeon armies in SOD. His human apierenc could be explained the same way as Sandros Apeirenc did - via magic.
The Ethric the Mad stuff is the only serious inconsistency I ever found in the "old universe" (but even that can be explained reasonably)
The sensible answer is that there were two characters named Ethric, one being Ethric the Mad and the other being Ethric, Sandro's Warlock master from Bracada. The problem with saying they're one character is that in SoD we're told very firmly that Ethric truly hates necromancy - therefore he likely wouldn't use it on himself.
Additionally, Ethric the Mad's skull can be found in MM6, which occurs not long after Rise of the Necromancer. He can't be both dead and undead at the same time, let alone in two places at once.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted February 02, 2011 03:34 PM |
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@Vicheron
I said I was growing already tired of it from H3. The RoE was alright, SoD was ok too, but indeed it's AB that felt unfinished and its random other campaigns that were tiring as they did not add to it. When I first saw H4's intro, I was like 'WTF?' when did this happen and why did I miss it? It was the last straw, H4 game was bad too, so I quited.
You too, have a habit of misquoting to make an argument. I did never say it is badly written, I said that if these plotlines were used before as you gave me examples of them, then it's as generic as H5's.
By the way, I asked for proof besides the Priest and Treant, that didn't make the cut. The Elven Archer, Dwarf and Vampire are not even similar, forget about copies. Where's the rest? You said "Sylvans, Havens, Dwarves and Necropolis", right?
If it's just basing the artistic style on it, you complain about, then the entire H3 line-up of creatures is based on D&D's monster manuals artistic style, except only for a very few occasions.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted February 02, 2011 03:50 PM |
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Were there any sci fi hints in Homm? Cause if so I missed them.
There is of course the hovering alien space ship located within the homm5 map files  I doubt that counts though lol, but it was funny to see.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 02, 2011 04:47 PM |
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The thing i would like to discus is the story of Ethric the Mad. I don't know if it was you who wrote that article, but I noticed that he was described as a good-alight wizard. This falowed his apearince in H3 SOD. But other informations (from MaM 6 and 7) showed him as an Neutral or evil Warlock and a very old lich. I always though of him as a Lich-warlock. A warlock who has turned him self into a lich, there are some other examples of Warlocks who have done the same. This was a good explanation for Sandros apierence in H1 as a Hero in Alamars armies, and also why Ethirc commanded Dungeon armies in SOD. His human apierenc could be explained the same way as Sandros Apeirenc did - via magic.
The Ethric the Mad stuff is the only serious inconsistency I ever found in the "old universe" (but even that can be explained reasonably)
The sensible answer is that there were two characters named Ethric, one being Ethric the Mad and the other being Ethric, Sandro's Warlock master from Bracada. The problem with saying they're one character is that in SoD we're told very firmly that Ethric truly hates necromancy - therefore he likely wouldn't use it on himself.
Additionally, Ethric the Mad's skull can be found in MM6, which occurs not long after Rise of the Necromancer. He can't be both dead and undead at the same time, let alone in two places at once.
I promise to find more information on this topic but still I stand that they are the same. I will just list 3 core points on with i build My decision.
1: Ethrics staff. If the Evil Ethric would by the Enrothian one, how would his staff get to Antagarich?
2: Sandro in Enroth. We both know that sandro first seen in enroth as a warlock, there are people who say that the two Sandros but I think we can both agree that there are one an the same
3: There are Warlock who have made them self liches without practicing necromancy. Agar for one example. Note that only the Warlocks of Nighon had the technical knowhow to produce Lich-Jars. As well as a Necromancer doesn't nesceseraly by a lich a lich doesn't nesceseraly by a necromancer. It is similar like if you ware a black music band T-shirt. you dont nesceseraly have to by a Metal-head but it is comfuesing.
For the time factor we do not know exactly (or if you know please give me the time line) when the SOD takes place
We know it is after H2 and before H3 and MaMVI. From logical point of view, Ethric in SOD is killed in sandros campaign, that is fallowed by the 12 main campaign maps and the final one with Sandro and Lord Heart. If one map would by 2 months and half the maps would take place at the same time, it would still take more then one year, and we do not know how much time paste between the those two. if we had 2 years time, it is still enough to travel 200 miles by sea. So I think it is not a problem of time spend
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted February 03, 2011 07:27 AM |
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Edited by vicheron at 07:28, 03 Feb 2011.
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@Vicheron
I said I was growing already tired of it from H3. The RoE was alright, SoD was ok too, but indeed it's AB that felt unfinished and its random other campaigns that were tiring as they did not add to it. When I first saw H4's intro, I was like 'WTF?' when did this happen and why did I miss it? It was the last straw, H4 game was bad too, so I quited.
But again, the reason why AB had problems was because they had to get rid of the Forge, which was a decision that you agree with.
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You too, have a habit of misquoting to make an argument. I did never say it is badly written, I said that if these plotlines were used before as you gave me examples of them, then it's as generic as H5's.
And that's only a problem when the story is badly told, characters are inconsistent, and there are a bunch of unexplained plot holes.
If your argument is that NWC used familiar plot elements then that's not a complaint. That's like saying that a story has a protagonist you can relate with and root for. Most good stories have that so the fact that another story has that is not indicative of any kind of problem.
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By the way, I asked for proof besides the Priest and Treant, that didn't make the cut. The Elven Archer, Dwarf and Vampire are not even similar, forget about copies. Where's the rest? You said "Sylvans, Havens, Dwarves and Necropolis", right?
If it's just basing the artistic style on it, you complain about, then the entire H3 line-up of creatures is based on D&D's monster manuals artistic style, except only for a very few occasions.
Compare the elven archer to arcane archer. Look at the Vampire's armor and sword. You want more examples? Here:
Warhammer Dwarf Beserker
Warhammer Dwarf Beserker
Heroes 5 Dwarf Brawler
Warhammer Bear Rider
Heroes 5 Bear Rider
Warhammer Runesmith
Warhammer Runesmith
Warhammer Runesmith
Heroes 5 Rune Priest
Warhammer Ogre
Heroes 5 Thunder Thane
Warhammer Knight
Warhammer Knight
Heroes 5 Cavalier
Heroes 5 Paladin
Warhammer Skellies
Heroes 5 Skeleton
Warhammer Wood Elves
Heroes 5 Blade Dancer
As for H3's artistic style being based on D&D's, you've provided no proof. The harpy example was not in the same artistic style, neither was the basilisk, nor the gorgon.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 03, 2011 08:50 AM |
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From my point of view?
WH-Berserker=H5-Brawler: This one is wierd to combare, the only thing similar are the berds the WH berserkers are much more significant and iconic.
WH bear rided=H5 bear rider: This one is obviesly a copy.
WH Rune smith=H5 rune priest: Not so obvios but still it is a copy
WH Ogre=H5 Thane: sorry but this on is not that similar to by considerd a copy, maby inspired but still different enought
WH Knight=H5 Cavalery: Well it is a knight on a horse, there is not that many was of doing so, this is mor of a Historical concept so WH cant say there are WH original only so no
WH skeleton=H5 skeleton: This one can hardly be a copy, It is a Skeleton, how many different wasy to draw it can you make? Exept thet thay are skeletons, there is no similariteis in wapomns or armor.
WH wood elves=H5 war dancers: The concept is similar, but the way it is styled is diferent. the only thing that I think they are Common for both of them are "Elves", are "half naked" and "Use two swords", that is realy not a WH exlusive is it?
So final count
2 direct copies
2 common designes
2 Inspiration
1 remake
So it is not that
For the Elven Archer, no he is not similar to the Arcane archer.
And vampire swords a argument? I have been Bat vampire swords for LARP's years befor I even knew WH has a Vampir faction.
The fact is MaM started 25 years ago as a D&D style RPG game and like many games in the 90's used and copied D&D as source for there creatures. In those days you had basicly 4 choses
1: copy D&D (most RPG games, M&M)
2: Copy WH (Warcraft)
3: Copy Lotr
4: copy your lokal D&D spin off
These days it si normal to create a lore of your owne. And the older franchises have to somehow make there old games based on Copies of te big franchises unique.
Heroes has great potential thanks to Ledroits uniqe art style to snad up in this maner, sadly Nival only managed to move Heroes from D&D to less used WH, wich is not so good de to the popularity of WC.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted February 03, 2011 09:37 AM |
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@Vicheron
I agree that it's because they had to pull out the Forge, that AB became a mess. But I still say the Forge was their mistake and what followed was their fault.
No, it's not a complaint that the story is generic. Personally, I don't mind generic stories as long as they are still entertaining. Take the movie 'Avatar' for example, its story was recycled a thousand times over but it was fun to watch. It was not therefore an accusation that NWC had a generic storyline for its worlds. It is so I make sure that Ashan won't be accused of being worse than Enroth for being generic.
Ok, about the units you have me convinced. Well, I don't agree with all of them. But most of them are either at least based on (which I don't consider a bad thing, actually it's good to take inspiration from others), or directly copied (now that's what I consider bad).
Harpy was being given as an example of when I said "Even some of the of the simple, generic and classic designs were done according to some old Monster Manuals." Notice 'done according to' not 'copied from'. If you check out for example the Harpies from Titan Quest, Warcraft, Warhammer, God of War, Final Fantasy, the D&D 3.5e one, and many others, you'll see how different they are from each other even though the general idea remains the same. But H3's Harpy is very close and very similar if not identical to AD&D2e Harpy. And given, how they copied other designs from there, there's no reason why not this is not taken from there to. The only excuse I got not to call it a copy, is its overly-generic design.
The only difference between the Basilisk of AD&D 2e and H3, is being the former's long neck. That's not enough to excuse it, it's a copy. The Gorgon was a mistake from D&D's part, deliberate or not. As Gorgon is a serpentine like female humanoid, i.e Medusa was a Gorgon. Gorgon had absolutely nothing to do with bulls, that was all D&d. And H3 gone and copy that very mistake so how can you excuse it?
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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