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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 26, 2011 04:00 PM |
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A Christian will love, pray for, and do good to even his enemies.
While you, on the other hand, support the harshest judicial penalties of all the people I know, as well as every war America has ever led.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 26, 2011 04:03 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 16:04, 26 Apr 2011.
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Quote:
A Christian will love, pray for, and do good to even his enemies. An atheist will not.
Very interesting statement (bolded part). Wasn't it YOU who told me in a post it would be ok to shoot down someone who comes into your house? No matter if he has a gun or not? No matter if he is just looking for a piece of bread because he hasn't eaten for a longer time now? And now you are telling me a Christian would do good even to his enemies? Very interesting...
You know what?
I even think more atheists than Christians are against death penalty. Some have respect for life of others, and others don't. But Christians would never harm others I have learned.......tststs
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 26, 2011 04:11 PM |
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While you, on the other hand, support the harshest judicial penalties of all the people I know, as well as every war America has ever led.
Because wars do good to enemies, obviously! You know, they bring democracy and stuff. 
Chill out people... It's getting hot in here.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 26, 2011 04:17 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
A Christian will love, pray for, and do good to even his enemies. An atheist will not.
What a completely prejudicial and asinine thing to say. You have NO IDEA how I would act in ANY situation, let alone how the millions of other atheists out there would act, and the fact that you think you can judge me or someone else a priori based only on my so-called "religion" shows you to be no better than the "anti-theists" you rail about all the time.
Actually, I have a new term for people like you, Elodin: "Anti-atheist."
You could call me an anti-atheist, but that would make you a liar, so I suggest you refrain from doing so. I love all people. I am opposed to the actions some people chose to take however.
Are you claiming that loving one's enemies is a logical conclusion of atheism or characteristic of atheists?
Are you claiming doing good to one's enemies is a logical conclusion of atheism or characteristic of atheism?
Are you claiming that praying for one's enemies is a logical conclusion of atheism or characteristic of atheists?
I know that certainly I can come up with quotes of certain atheists on this board who say people should not love everyone.
Quote:
Very interesting statement (bolded part). Wasn't it YOU who told me in a post it would be ok to shoot down someone who comes into your house?
I am for self defense and also my right to defend my family.
Jesus told his disciples to buy a sword when going into hostile territory.
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Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
There also is nothing wrong with a just war.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 26, 2011 04:20 PM |
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I love all people.
Even though you condone the taking of their life?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 26, 2011 04:26 PM |
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Quote:
There also is nothing wrong with a just war.
And a skinny fatso. And an intelligent idiot. And an honest politician.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 26, 2011 04:39 PM |
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Umm, Elodin, just between you and me:
John 11:25 I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
There are many other passages who say something like that, and no matter what YOU say, you are not the Pope, and we are talking about Christianity in general, and in fact there ARE those Christian denominations who say that we canNOT EARN eternal life, but get it as a gift and purely as God's mercy. The Christian idea in general is, whatever you may think or belief, a mix of believing in Christ and that he is really the son of God and was resurrected and honest repenting of sins.
Whatever YOU may say.
And to the rest I say, keep cool, people.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 26, 2011 04:43 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 16:44, 26 Apr 2011.
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@Elodin
Quote:
Are you claiming that loving one's enemies is a logical conclusion of atheism or characteristic of atheists?
Are you claiming doing good to one's enemies is a logical conclusion of atheism or characteristic of atheism?
Are you claiming that praying for one's enemies is a logical conclusion of atheism or characteristic of atheists?
What I'm claiming is that a person's actions are not predetermined by what they (think they) believe in. I'm also claiming that human actions are not always determined by what is logical. I'm claiming that you have a very perverted and prejudiced idea of what it means to be an atheist. I'm claiming that not every atheist believes the same thing, so it's wrong to assume you know how all of us are going to act in every sort of situation. Finally, I'm claiming people have free will - so a man, even an evil, filthy atheist, can choose to do good and love people if he so chooses.
Now. Are you claiming it's impossible for an atheist to forgive someone? Or will you admit that your statement was wrong and that many atheists may love or forgive "enemies" who wrong us.
Quote:
I know that certainly I can come up with quotes of certain atheists on this board who say people should not love everyone.
Right, I don't think I'm required to love everyone. So what?
The fact that I think this means that I would never forgive someone or love someone who wronged me?
Is that was passes for logic in your book?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 26, 2011 04:54 PM |
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I've studies the Bible since about age 10. Closing in on 37 years of study now, and I've found not a single error.
Maybe you should finally start reading something else then. Fat chance, I know.
Anyway, I'm fairly certain that you are not investing even a single brain cell into what the other people are trying to tell you and you think that this is all deluded jabbering of clueless slaves of Satan. Unfortunately the hopeless transparency of your way of thinking makes all discussions pointless and I really don't know why so many people here are actively attempting to explain you something. Maybe you're just a good show, dunno.
Anyway, one thing I'd like to know - what are these "anti-theist" web-sites you are talking about all the time? Care to point me to one?
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Lumske_Beaver
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 26, 2011 04:58 PM |
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Let's put it this way, I am 100% certain that what I believe is true
In that case, any reference to science from you would be out of place.
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The thing that makes me different from theists is I don't state anything that hasn't been proven
No. You state things which hasn't been proven all the time. Saying something is false, without evidence, is the same.
The above, particularly the first statement, is absolutely spot on. What I find intriguingly hilarious about this thread is that SkrentyzMienty and Elodin does not realize that they are not discussing, but solely stating postulates in opposition to each other.
However this thread is memorable, not for its overwhelming hypocrisy and ludicrous lack of rational arguments (or arguments in general), but for how well it illustrates that extreme atheism and theism is equally faithful and irrational.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 26, 2011 05:00 PM |
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Fat chance now that this will stl happen, I know, but I actually asked Mvass this question, since he was the one making the point and I would have been interested in whether he would have come up with something meaningful.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 26, 2011 06:39 PM |
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@JJ
Quote:
Umm, Elodin, just between you and me:
John 11:25 I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
I can take one sentence out of any book, take it out of context, and distort its meaning. But shall we look at other things John wrote?
Jesus did not teach that believing he is the Christ gives you a ticket to heaven. And "believe" in the Bible does not mean mere "mental assent" that Jesus is who he claims to be.
In the same book of John that you quoted from Jesus says those who are really followers of him are those who "continue in my word" (keep his teachings), not those who say, "Lord, Lord" but live in sin.
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Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Oh, there are certainly well-meaning but gravely mistaken people who teach that merely acknowledging who Jesus is means you will be saved. They misunderstand "believe on Jesus" as the Bible talks about belief. A person who "believes on" Jesus accepts his teachings and tries to live by them. A person who "believes on" Jesus embraces the message of Jesus. He repents of his sin (turns from his sin) to God as Jesus said to do. A true believer of Jesus eats and drinks Jesus (consumes his teachings and lives by them.) He lives on Jesus.
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Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Such a person comes to him, learns of him, lets Jesus be his shepherd. Lives by the words of God.
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Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
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Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Babbling the "right phrases" but with the wrong heart is "vain", empty/worthless/meaningless, not acceptable to God.
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1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Quote:
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 26, 2011 07:46 PM |
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Can you be saved, if you do NOT believe in Christ, no matter how "good" a life you lead apart from that?
I don't think so.
Anything else?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 26, 2011 07:49 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 19:52, 26 Apr 2011.
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Quote:
@Elodin
What I'm claiming is that a person's actions are not predetermined by what they (think they) believe in. I'm also claiming that human actions are not always determined by what is logical. I'm claiming that you have a very perverted and prejudiced idea of what it means to be an atheist. I'm claiming that not every atheist believes the same thing, so it's wrong to assume you know how all of us are going to act in every sort of situation. Finally, I'm claiming people have free will - so a man, even an evil, filthy atheist, can choose to do good and love people if he so chooses.
Now. Are you claiming it's impossible for an atheist to forgive someone? Or will you admit that your statement was wrong and that many atheists may love or forgive "enemies" who wrong us.
I'm certainly not saying atheists can't be moral. I've said they can be moral a number of times.
Your question was if there was differing behavior between atheists and Christians. Yes, there certainly is. The worldviews are completely different so it would be a strange thing if there were not differing behaviors.
People with an atheistic world view will not generally behave like Christians in a number of different ways. Of course some people who claim atheism are not really atheists when it comes down to it and certainly atheists may not always act in a manner consistent with their beliefs. One who fancies himself to be an atheists may indeed pray in a time of great need, for example. But his lifestyle won't be one of prayer, eh?
I don't think love for everyone is characteristic of followers of atheism, do you? That runs counter to what is logical for an atheistic world view and a number of atheists said that a person SHOULD NOT love everyone. You were a little vague in your wording on this occasion and said that you are "not required" to love everyone.
And, well, I mentioned the studies that show religious people in general are more charitable people than non-religious people. Certainly there are some atheists who are charitable but being charitable is not overall a characteristic associated with atheism.
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I've studies the Bible since about age 10. Closing in on 37 years of study now, and I've found not a single error.
Maybe you should finally start reading something else then. Fat chance, I know.
Anyway, I'm fairly certain that you are not investing even a single brain cell into what the other people are trying to tell you and you think that this is all deluded jabbering of clueless slaves of Satan. Unfortunately the hopeless transparency of your way of thinking makes all discussions pointless and I really don't know why so many people here are actively attempting to explain you something. Maybe you're just a good show, dunno.
Oh, I've done quite a bit of reading things other than the Bible. And you would do well to follow your own advice about investing at least one brain cell in investigating things you obviously are clueless about.
One thing you have probably not noticed is I'm one of the few people who actually do research and back up my claims. "The other side" just mostly makes empty claims about the Bible, Christainity, ect.
To be honest, I've yet to meet an atheist who really has a clue about the Bible though many of the anti-theist atheists are quite quick to make outrageous claims about what the Bible says.
I'm sure you don't need my help to find an anti=theist website.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 26, 2011 08:11 PM |
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Quote:
I don't think love for everyone is characteristic of followers of atheism, do you?
Strange, I think, that's somethingh atheists, Christians and everyone else have in common. But maybe we don't mean the same thing, when we speak of love.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 26, 2011 08:14 PM |
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Quote:
The above, particularly the first statement, is absolutely spot on.
Thank you.
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Living time backwards
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 26, 2011 09:14 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 21:21, 26 Apr 2011.
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Quote:
Oh, I've done quite a bit of reading things other than the Bible. And you would do well to follow your own advice about investing at least one brain cell in investigating things you obviously are clueless about.
I've spoken with Christians who can really defend their beliefs and not look like bigots and hypocrites beyond redemption at the same time (and yeah, unlike you they have actually really read many things and made an effort to understand them). This does not mean that I agree with them but that I can fully respect their opinions and discuss things with them. You are not even close, hence trying to explain you something is a completely fruitless effort which I will just spare myself. Moreover, if you haven't noticed, people are trying to tell you that, among other things, you are making a really bad advertisement of your religion. You are not convincing anyone, you are just confirming the prejudices that some people have about the Christians.
I'm still waiting you to tell me what are these anti-theist web-sites though. Names, clickies? I tried to google the thing but found only one where people are generally doubting more or less everything, not just God.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 26, 2011 10:19 PM |
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@Zenofex
Sadly all you seem to be interested in is throwing around insults and making false statements about me. You can clearly see Corribus and other atheists calling religious people delusional, irrational, ect, before I even joined the Heroes community. Just read the older religion thread and it is all there in black and white.
Of course a problem lies with those who like to dish out strong language about stuff they don't believe in but cry rivers of tears if anyone says anything even mildly criticizing their own beliefs.
I'm certainly not prejudiced or a bigot or hypocrite contrary to your lies about me. I respect atheists who simply don't believe in God. I have no respect for anti-theists who continually lie about religion/religious people. Criticizing atheism is not being prejudiced or bigoted. It is criticizing an idea. Atheism is not on a plateau to be beyond question.
A hypocrite is a person who proclaims one thing to be true but who lives another. I do my best to live my beliefs no matter what it costs me. I don't beat around the bush with what I believe. Some people in the OSM are very hard to nail down on a position as they try to speak it as vaguely as possible. Sort of like a politician who does not want to lose any votes.
If you have something you would actually like to put in the discussion instead of insulting me please do so.
Quote:
You are not convincing anyone, you are just confirming the prejudices that some people have about the Christians.
Sadly, most of the atheists I see involved in "discussions" are there to trash religious people and religion, not to seek truth or find out what others believe. When they throw out lies about the Bible says or Christianity teaches I counter that with the truth. Sorry if you think presenting what the Bible actually says when they lie about it is bigoted.
If you want to talk about perceptions of people or groups, atheists are according to polls the most distrusted and disrespected people around. I'd say several atheists on this site have behavior that contribute to that perception.
Notice, I did not say atheists in general are not trustworthy nor did I say the public perception of atheists is warranted.
Quote:
I'm still waiting you to tell me what are these anti-theist web-sites though. Names, clickies? I tried to google the thing but found only one where people are generally doubting more or less everything, not just God.
Look up any of the "Bible contradiction" websites for example. I've taken the time on several occasions to prove a number or the "contradictions" to be lies. Why do I call them lies rather than a mistaken misinterpretation? Because most of the "contradictions" are very obviously not contradictions to anyone who has a faint understanding of the Bible. Anti-theists lift verses out of context to try to make it seem the Bible has errors. That sort of thing.
Look in some of the other religion threads if you don't know how to use google to find them. You'll find the whole garbage of "religion kills", "the Catholic church made up the no sex-outside-of-marriage thing" and other garbage that several atheists on this site like to spew.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 26, 2011 10:32 PM |
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Quote:
I'm certainly not prejudiced or a bigot or hypocrite contrary to your lies about me.
Well, you are. Saying you do love us then piss off everybody around, how you call it? This may even be a medical issue.
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Lumske_Beaver
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 26, 2011 10:46 PM |
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Quote:
And I find belief that the universe is either eternal or produced itself out of a steady state of absolute nothing absurQuote:
@Elodin - If so, would you then object to an opinioin that the belief that God is either eternal or produced himself is nothing but absurd?
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This thread is pages long: 
