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| Thread: Balkans and the EU |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 27, 2011 08:13 PM |
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Quote:
First big problem is that every ethnic group has it's own language.
But Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks speak the same language.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted May 27, 2011 09:08 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 21:08, 27 May 2011.
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Quote:
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First big problem is that every ethnic group has it's own language.
But Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks speak the same language.
Montenegrins too. In addition, Slovene and Macedonian were also official languages in former Yugoslavia.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted May 27, 2011 09:15 PM |
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@Vlaad
So albanians started he conflict?I always thought milosevic send out his bodyguard to clean the Albanian "pest" from the Serbian "Holy" land?
Pff,your Milosevic started your fall,not us.
@ Corribus
See the other part of the spectrum.
Lets say,Albanians hate serbs and Serbia for what they did during their regime on Kosovo,regardless if you consider Kosovo is their territory or not.
People who were not Serb's did not enjoy the privileges Serb's had in Kosovo.
Would any american want slavery back in the US?
Serb's were the the "almighty awesome gods of uber police forces",better salaries,better security and so on. An unfair life for any Albanian's from birth to death.
Tito,hated by Serbs,was more liberal to us and that is one the reason serbs hate him.
During the time of war,Serbian politicans thought as this "If only we could remove this scum and create greater Serbia" said roughfly or something.No offense indtended to any Serbs here.
We dont want that BS again at any cost.This is only the technical part,nationa,historical elements are not included.
The truth always falls somewhere in the middle.I dont want to get into History or something for this boring issue.
What is frightening is that Serbia and some of its inhabitants did not get over history,the past and nationalism.Instead of to prolong improvement and commodity they still fiddle with their "Holy"land which is nothing but small piece of country populated by albanians that are about 85% are non religous.At least in Kosovo,no one gives a damn about the past anymore,am surprised that this is not the same in Serbia as shown by some members here.
Serbia in the EU,I dont care.The eu is basically the USSR in disguise.The membership of Bulgaria and Romania is a sign of this,imho. Gas pipelines FTW.
I just hope we build a Berlin wall around the border of serbia and both of us get nukes so that MAD would work.This way there would be permanent-fragile peace.
If anyone is interested in balkans history,either take and read books from both sides to get a rough pic of the truth or just forget about this hell hole and go out with a girl.I recommend doing the later.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted May 27, 2011 09:24 PM |
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Quote:
Ok, one more question, just so I can get the feel of the place.
Do you Balkaners think that these cultural barriers are as high among young people, or will they die out because of increased globalization? I mean, do you have friends among other ethnic/racial groups, or is it still taboo to do so?
When you walk down a street and see someone from another ethnic group, do you secretly hate them, or do you smile and say hello? I just am curious really how deep these lines are drawn.
On your first,they will remain for a very long time.I dont have any friends that are Serbs and would want to have serb friends.Reason,I would not trust em.
On you second,how do you know he is from another ethnic group? Taking a serbian flag on the other hand and screaming "Kosovo je Srbije" would get a negative response.
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted May 27, 2011 09:25 PM |
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Damn 
Vlaad is not a Serb, Serbs don't hate Tito and this thread really shouldn't turn into a Balkan bash party, we're all (most of us) nice people, I'm pretty certain we are mature enough to not hate over something as dumb as ethnicity....
Just play nice everyone 
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted May 27, 2011 09:38 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 21:55, 27 May 2011.
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Damn
Vlaad is not a Serb, Serbs don't hate Tito and this thread really shouldn't turn into a Balkan bash party, we're all (most of us) nice people, I'm pretty certain we are mature enough to not hate over something as dumb as ethnicity....
Just play nice everyone
Does it matter what he is?I know serbian philosophy and some of Tito's actions were "un-yugoslav".
and this thread is not turining into a balkan bash party,unless other try do that.As for mature,"maturity" is quite subjective dont you think?
Sarcasm/
Ain't we all brothers and sister that Love each other?
Serbs have this guy
http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/political-pictures-vladimir-putin-csi-moscow.jpg
Even Chuck Norris cant beat em...
but
http://www.tx-net.de/bilder/1146149426589.jpg
See,America was planning to liberate U-go-slav-or-die-via- (they forgot the last part)-shell,but their liberation process somehow went wrong.
/Sarcasm
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 27, 2011 10:04 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 23:13, 27 May 2011.
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So you think poverty exacerbates or causes fundamental social unrest or leads to an enhancement of ethnic/racial identification?
It does. When the people are fed, have secure job where they can earn more than the minimum necessary for survival, don't fear that they'll be robbed and beaten to death in the dark when going home and generally feel relatively safe for their future, they rarely give a damn about the ethnicity of the other persons around or about how great their own country was 10 centuries ago. Poverty greatly accelerates the spread of all kinds of extreme teachings which make little to no sense if you are living a (economically) good life.
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Anyway, assuming you're right I would suppose that EU control would have to be good for the region. It would stabilize the economy and lead to less racial/ethnic conflict, no?
That depends. The EU is no milch cow and the rich countries are not willing to keep making gifts no matter how bad you fare - and the progress here is definitely slow. The future of the whole project of "united Europe" is still far from certain and it's not like there are no historical examples of similar unions which had been quickly and sometimes violently dissolved when the things that united the participants had become less important than the things that divided them. That's why I said that if the EU fails economically, it'll be a matter of months or even weeks to see it falling to pieces.
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Do you Balkaners think that these cultural barriers are as high among young people, or will they die out because of increased globalization?
Don't know about the neighbours, but the young people are leaving Bulgaria en masse and it's not certain how many of them will come back. Most likely far less than those who left.
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When you walk down a street and see someone from another ethnic group, do you secretly hate them, or do you smile and say hello?
Me - no. I care about the individuals and am totally convinced that every nation has its good people and its idiots. Other people however - yes. The greatest problems here are with the gipsies and the Turks. Right now we are dealing with one particular idiotic political party which is doing its best to alienate the Turkish minority as much as possible from the rest of the population and vice versa. Fortunately there is a good chance to finally see it banned.
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If anyone is interested in balkans history,either take and read books from both sides to get a rough pic of the truth
Actually better not read anything from local sources - the national history of each Balkan state has so many fabricated facts in it that one neutral reader's jaw will surely drop.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted May 27, 2011 10:54 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 17:36, 06 Jun 2011.
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Right, this is what I don't get. Why can't several ethnic groups live together harmoniously in one nation? This happens elsewhere. I know the situation in US is hardly comparable
Let's compare it to the American Civil War. Why couldn't several states live together harmoniously? Why the bloody war? No diverse ethnic groups to boot.
Zenofex is right, economic and political issues were at the core of the conflict. Similarly, slavery was the main cause of the Civil War, but there were others, such as states' rights, free soil dispute, tariffs, social and political differences, etc. Those resemble the problems that plagued Yugoslavia, although the main issue was the national question, i.e. not ideological.
Just like in the US, those problems had a historical background. As previously mentioned, like other nationalist movements, Pan-Slavism was strong a century ago. Tension over territory populated by South Slavs ("Yugoslavs") between Serbia and Austro-Hungarian Empire was one of the causes of WW1. After the war, South Slavs formed Yugoslavia; Croats and Slovenes sought freedom after a millennium of foreign rule, while Serbs looked to unite Serbs outside Serbia into one country. As the liberators and the largest nation within Yugoslavia, Serbs claimed control of the country. As a result, national tensions rose and finally escalated during WW2, when Croatia declared independence, sided with Germany and committed genocide against the local Serb population.
As the one true antifascist movement, the Communist Party took over the reins after the war. Massimo d'Azeglio, an Italian statesman, wrote: "Italy has been made; now it remains to make Italians". Sadly, this never happened with Yugoslavia. Instead, in order to keep the inherited national conflicts under control, the Communists divided the country into national republics and granted them greater rights than those of the states in the US.
In the 1970s, the World Oil Crisis hindered the local economy and the resentment grew in the more developed north, especially Slovenia and Croatia, who viewed the south as the economic black hole. The Communist Party granted even more rights to the republics, as well as to the province of Kosovo within Serbia. This hurt the national sentiment in Serbia, but "weak Serbia meant strong Yugoslavia". Thus nationalism was kept in check - at least until the breakup of communism.
In the 1980s, Albanians in Kosovo requested the right for self-determination. Serbia tried to regain her influence by abolishing the Kosovo autonomy. Riding this wave of nationalism, Milosevic came to power in Serbia. Soon he tried to expand his influence in entire Yugoslavia by refusing further rights to the republics as well as proposing the "one man, one vote" voting system, which would favor the Serbs.
Consequently, the nationalist movements won the first free elections and the republics declared independence. The problem was the republic borders were not ethnic borders; the Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia wanted to unite with Serbia proper, which resulted in armed conflicts.
In order to prevent further infighting, the EU offered the leaders of dissolving Yugoslavia to join. However, the Serbian leader asked for a centralized country, while the Croat leader felt he had "the historical mission to restore the Croat state". The civil war followed.
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Ok, one more question, just so I can get the feel of the place.
Do you Balkaners think that these cultural barriers are as high among young people, or will they die out because of increased globalization? I mean, do you have friends among other ethnic/racial groups, or is it still taboo to do so?
When you walk down a street and see someone from another ethnic group, do you secretly hate them, or do you smile and say hello? I just am curious really how deep these lines are drawn.
I should probably let Baklava and Seraphim answer those, but anyway...
The year after the Kosovo conflict I got back to my studies in Belgrade. One of my roommates was an Albanian. Also I'm looking forward to going to the comic book convention in Makarska, Croatia next year. I have fond childhood memories of the place.
On the other hand, I've neither lost anybody nor was forced to leave my home.
Finally, I worked as a teacher for five years and had about 500 students. Some of them parroted nationalist drivel they had heard at home, but others loved listening to Croat pop music.
It takes time.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted May 27, 2011 11:02 PM |
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Quote:
@Vlaad
So albanians started he conflict?
I wrote "armed conflict".
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted May 27, 2011 11:04 PM |
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Quote:
Vlaad is not a Serb
I am.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 27, 2011 11:27 PM |
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I'll risk an eye and chip in with a few words here, even at the risk of someone finding this offensive.
From the viewpoint of a Western European as myself, it's far from unproblematic to include the Eastern European / Balkan contries in the EU. There's a huge echonomical difference between Eastern Europe and Western Europe in general. That doesn't exclude a community - far from - but I think the EU was build around a concept where the countries were much more uniform in their echonomical (and possibly also their political) situation than is the case between east and west.
I simply don't think the EU as it is today is structured in the right way to cope with the differences betwen the countries. In many western countries there is a fear that the free migration rights included in the EU will course an economical burden which will undermine the social systems here, and while I think some of this can be contributed to campaigns of fear run by xenophobic right wing parties, I think it is something that can become a real problem for some Western European society structures (like the Danish).
While this is only the top of the ice berg I'm covering here, my point is that I think an all-european union (which I'm not necessarily against) would need a different structure than the current EU.
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What will happen now?
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted May 27, 2011 11:43 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 02:04, 28 May 2011.
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We hate you too I don't think it's offensive. People in the Western Balkans are aware of that. It's just that the EU could eliminate the possibility of more wars in the region. Some would argue that was the original idea behind the EU. In other words, it would pay off in the long run. Besides, we're talking years, perhaps even decades.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted May 28, 2011 12:06 AM |
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@Vlaad
So albanians started he conflict?
I wrote "armed conflict".
Please elaborate on that.I fail to understand how Kosovo started the armed conflict?
If you mean KLA,then mention it.THe KLA was a bunch of retards who did mroe harm than good to Albanians,sure there are who think otherwise but that is an issue with Serbs aswell. Ratko Mladic...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 28, 2011 12:07 AM |
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It's just that the EU could eliminate the possibility of more wars in the region. Some would argue that was the original idea behind the EU. In other words, it would pay off in the long run. Besides, we're talking years, perhaps even decades.
I would certainly support peace, but then, it's beyond my understanding how people are even still waring each other these days, it seems so ... unconstructive. But sadly people still do. And yeah, maybe it could prevent that - but still, that would only work if the countries really wanted to be part of the EU, and if they really wanted that, couldn't they just stop fighting each other? I dunno, I know so little about how people think in those areas, and in the end I think it's a pretty tough argument to sell things by in this part of Europe. It's easier to relate to your own life tomorrow than the common good decades ahead in time I guess.
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What will happen now?
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted May 28, 2011 12:14 AM |
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@acidiblades
People in balkans think differently.
People see europe as the gateway to heaven because of higher wages,better standards adn so on.
People support EU membership because they believe that will make their lives better.
That is all,really there is not much to say here.
EU== More money.
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted May 28, 2011 12:25 AM |
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Not necessarily, I also know some people who think Eu=higher prices for everything.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 28, 2011 05:37 AM |
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A lot of really nice, truthful answers to my questions, friends. I may return to this topic later, when I get back from the beach. In the meantime, thanks for your candor - it was enlightening. 
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted May 28, 2011 03:09 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 15:21, 28 May 2011.
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Quote:
Ok, one more question, just so I can get the feel of the place.
Do you Balkaners think that these cultural barriers are as high among young people, or will they die out because of increased globalization? I mean, do you have friends among other ethnic/racial groups, or is it still taboo to do so?
When you walk down a street and see someone from another ethnic group, do you secretly hate them, or do you smile and say hello? I just am curious really how deep these lines are drawn.
I wouldn't say the cultural barriers are dying out because of increased globalization. They're dying out because of the personal attitude of most of the younger generations, who are thankfully intelligent enough to understand they don't have any reason to hate any entire people on the planet; and, of course, passing time, changing regimes and better economic situations, which allow them to travel more easily and safely around ex-Yugoslavia and actually meet people. The reasons to travel and meet up with other folks are mostly tied to domestic "brands" - the Croats have the most beautiful shoreline in the Balkans (well, except Greece), the Serbs have all kinds of festivals and parties which attract people and everyone's got relatives in Bosnia. I'd rather use the word "balkanization" instead of "globalization", if someone hadn't already patented it for something else.
So when you walk down the streets of Belgrade with some pals and see someone from a different ethnic group, for example a group of Croatian girls, the conversation generally begins with them asking for directions to the local club, you realizing you didn't have anything better planned for the evening anyway, taking them to the club and getting home dead drunk in 6 AM with your shirt all wet from sweat and something-you-don't-remember-spilling-over-yourself-but-it-smells-like-brandy and lipstick all over your face.
There are, and probably will be, for quite a while, still leftovers on all sides; in Croatia, for example, the concert of an outspoken ultranationalist musician was recently attended by horrifying numbers of youngsters about my age with all kinds of insignia from the fascist Ustashe regime in WW2, while similarly ultranationalist and clerical-fascist movements in Serbia, vouching for some kind of Serbian reconquest, worshiping Mladic and the like, are constantly sticking their propaganda posters around, writing graffiti and whatnot.
But those are agreed by anyone remotely normal to be imbeciles and, though their numbers are disturbing, they're not and won't ever be the majority.
In general, young folks (including me) seem to meet, talk to and have a good time with both Croats, Bosniaks and everyone else, and never had a national, racial or similar problem with any of them, nor did any of the people I know and hang out with. I haven't encountered Albanians in Belgrade, but I doubt they'd run into any trouble if they came to visit, either; though they might have a harder time fitting in due to different language and cultural differences.
Of course, there's always the risk that you'll run across some idiots, but, at least among ex-Yugoslavs, it seems small enough to be worth taking, and it's generally believed that the worst that can happen to you is to get into a fight and receive (and, hopefully, hand out) a bit of quality beating, which isn't that bad.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 28, 2011 03:19 PM |
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But those are agreed by anyone remotely normal to be imbeciles and, though their numbers are disturbing, they're not and won't ever be the majority.
However, don't underestimate the devastating signal value such groups can have. I guess it can be compared to the very radical fundamental muslim groups that are active in many (western) european contries, and the equally radical and fundamental anti-islamic groups, who have had a devastating impact on the policy of this country (and I know many others also) for the last decade or more.
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What will happen now?
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted May 28, 2011 03:28 PM |
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Of course. I'm, however, talking about my belief in the ability of us normal kids to overcome them, and not let them dictate our social lives in the slightest.
Even the ancient Hippie civilization knew the best and most efficient way to combat hatred and primitiveness is with fun.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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