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| Thread: Those difficult level 4 choices... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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dD_ShockTroop
Hired Hero
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posted July 03, 2011 04:23 AM |
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Those difficult level 4 choices...
Devils or Bone Dragons? Champions or Angels? Titans or Dragon Golems? Hydras or Black Dragons? Behemoths or Thunderbirds? Phoenixes or Faerie Dragons?
Some decisions you might find easier than others, but do we all agree that one is better than the other? Somehow I doubt it.
With great certainty I say champions, thunderbirds, bone dragons and hydras are the clear choice. But I believe Dragon Golems and Faerie dragons are only slightly better than their counterparts and the choice is often subject to change.
I can explain why if you are intrigued, but I am more interested on the thoughts of others.
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PinkFlamingo
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 03, 2011 04:56 PM |
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Depends on several factors.
1. Resources
2. Location of your town relative to your opponents' (less accessible means more time to gather resources/troops)
3. Matchups (Chaos vs. Life, Dragon Golems vs. Thunderbirds, etc)
Bone Dragons>Devils: More HP, Fear, Ranged attacks don't hurt it much.
Angels>Champions: Perfect movement on map, resurrection.
Titans>Golems: Combos with slow, Precision for easy kills. Can't do the same with Golems.
Black Dragons>Hydras: Very difficult to kill, much faster.
Thunderbirds>Behemoths: Faster, 100% Lightning, more growth.
As for Phoenixes and Faerie Dragons...that is a very difficult decision to make. On one hand, Phoenixes split into groups of 1 is very difficult to kill, and they have 12 initiative so they will almost always go first. But on the other hand, Faerie Dragons can abuse the Confusion spell with your other troops (Elves, Heroes).
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2011 06:14 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 18:16, 03 Jul 2011.
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angel > champion. of course for the resurrection special, and also because of the speed. in high numbers champions can be better because of first strike but they are very dependant on terrain. if you have that nature spell (terrain walk I think) it is very great for champions.
titan = golem dragon. I prefer golem dragon, because anything that tries to attack them will die before it can even scratch them. moreover they are immune to mind spells. of course titans can shoot, so they are actually both good at avoiding losses.
phoenix > faerie dragon. faerie dragon with their spells are the best in early game and if you don't have tactics. phoenix are super fast, have high health, high damage, can attack 2 stacks at once and resurrect. there is just no bad point about them.
devil > bone dragon. sure, bone dragon is much stronger, but devils can summon demons who will take loses instead of the rest of your army. teleport can especially make a difference in a town fight, if you can teleport devils directly on a tower.
hydra > black dragon. but I have to admit that dragons are strong, and hydras need tactics to boost their speed. the main problem is that dragons can't be buffed. and against very strong stacks, no "first strike" or no "no retaliation" means you will most likely take losses. also hydras can attack more targets. against academy, black dragon is better.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 03, 2011 08:33 PM |
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I always preferred champions over angels. Statistic wise, their damage including their jousting bonus is MUCH higher and also they have a bonus of first strike.
I agree on hydras. Two hydras with cat reflexes are so much better than a single dragon.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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TheUnknown
Known Hero
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posted July 03, 2011 09:30 PM |
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This is the reason I love the game so much.
Every choice has it's ups and downs.
I usually go with high movement creatures unless the situation demands other specific strategies.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 04, 2011 12:33 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 00:36, 04 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
I always preferred champions over angels. Statistic wise, their damage including their jousting bonus is MUCH higher and also they have a bonus of first strike.
I remember once, I was like : 
a friend was attacking a necro castle with a massive army. he orders his 100 champions to attack the bone dragons, but the castle is so crowded that the champions have to run all around the 3 towers before reaching them. BAM 100 dragons die
oh and black dragons have a major disadvantage: a fire attack but no fire resistance. they are truly bad against phoenix, fire elemental and efreeti. they get owned by mantis too.
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Gauldoth_IV
Adventuring Hero
nobody
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posted July 04, 2011 10:51 AM |
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Well, I have to say it's one of the most interesting things during the playing. Sometime it's like card playing games, you don't know which cards your opponents hold, which cards they would discard, so something it like gambling, if you don't know your opponents well.
IMO, Thunderbirds and Behemoths are easily to choose, as might usually has no spell to strengthen the Behemoths, the speed and damage which the thunderbirds directly preponderating make the results coming out easily.
And the rest of five alignments, the choice become more harder:
Black Dragons and Hydras: two double-blades sword of the Chaos, BD is the strongest creature in H4(not include expansion), but the growth is lower than other level4 creatures, although 1 BD's strength can match most 2 level4 creatures, but his special skill which immune any spell make it easy to loss as can't be buffed, but if the opponent was good at controlling magic or weaken spell like order and death, BD will have a great effect, but as to others, Hydras may do more damage as the great attack increasing spells by the chaos, and their attack can't be retaliated. But I still like BD, because much faster, and dragon is always awesome to me.
Angels and champions: for most of time, I'll choose Angel, faster and more powerful, flying and special skill: Resurrection. even the champions have best growth and cheapest price in level4(according to their weakest statistics), although they have fine skills. BTW, another problem to annoying me make the final decision between two of them is they are both looking pretty awesome.
Titans and Dragon Golems: I'll choose Titans as it has ranged skill which match the Precision spell, but if the opponent was Death, I'll choose DG without doubt. Again Titans looks more awesome.
Devils and Bone Dragons: classic but most difficult choices in the game, Devils has faster speed, teleport skill make them a hero and rangers killer, summoning Ice Demon may change the result after both have a great damage in troops during the battle, and better looking (again ), but their can be controlled by mind spells, and BD don't need to consider it, and BD's Fear and skeletal skill can decrease the damage on them. In most situation, choosing BG is much more steady.
Phoenixes and Faerie Dragons: another classic dilemma choosing, one is good at melee fighting, one is good at spell casting, if opponent choose BD, I'll choose phoenix immediately, but as other cases, really hard to decide. I don't even know which looks much nicer. I might choose one just according the mood at that time.
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Where is my signature?
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dD_ShockTroop
Hired Hero
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posted July 05, 2011 02:51 AM |
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I think many people underestimate the champion (I used to); despite their base stats they seem to do more damage than angels per unit due to the charge. When adding tactics (and perhaps speed) and considering the fact they have doubled growth they can do very silly amounts of damage once you get about 20 (5 weeks off 1 town). They have first strike too, so their numbers are fairly easy to keep high. Although they are somewhat vulnerable to slow/bind/aging, angels are just as vulnerable to power drain/imps.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2011 03:43 AM |
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they are vulnerable to bad terrain too, unlike angels. I've had cases where my champions could barely move
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dD_ShockTroop
Hired Hero
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posted July 06, 2011 07:29 AM |
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Quote:
they are vulnerable to bad terrain too, unlike angels. I've had cases where my champions could barely move
I usually cast flight on them if this happens, but then I'm assuming one of the support heroes has order magic. (I pretty much always get it)
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 06, 2011 12:27 PM |
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Quote:
I think many people underestimate the champion (I used to); despite their base stats they seem to do more damage than angels per unit due to the charge.
Actually, even with their "poor" stats, they do more with a full weekly growth than angels, not counting the damage from jousting special.
Champions are very damaging unit, actually what most people don't realize is that they in fact have the best damage among all units in this game, considering full weekly growth.
Kind of reverse happens to dragons: most people compare stats of the dragon, scream "omg so good" but fail to notice that their halved growth effectively halves their stats, at which point they aren't that awesome anymore.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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dD_ShockTroop
Hired Hero
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posted July 06, 2011 02:01 PM |
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Does anyone actually know how much damage the champion gains from a full unmodified charge? I know it's quite substantial, and I've always assumed it was about 45(?) but I doubt that is very accurate. If I could work it out and divide it by its combat movement I could get the damage per movement point which I'm sure would be quite helpful.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2011 02:28 PM |
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you are wrong doomforge, champions have very average damage for a tier 4 units (I mean, without the jousting bonus). I think black dragons have better damage. behemoth have the highest damage.
angels : 52.5 x 30 x 2 = 3150
champions : 30 x 25 x 4 = 3000
titans : 42 x 32 x 2 = 2688
dragon golems : 45 x 34 x 2 = 3060
bone dragons : 55 x 30 x 2 = 3300
devils : 42 x 33 x 2 = 2772
black dragons : 82.5 x 40 = 3300
hydras : 44 x 30 x 2 = 2640
faerie dragon : 42 x 15 x 2 = 1260 (77 per dragon for lightning bolt, 44 for fireball and fire ring)
phoenix : 55 x 28 x 2 = 3080
mantis : 42 x 34 x 2 = 2856
thunderbirds : 3060 (+ lightning)
sea monsters : 55 x 35 x 2 = 3850
behemoths : 67 x 36 x 2 = 4824 complete domination.
note that the black dragon ranks 3rd behind the behemoth and the sea monster.
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dD_ShockTroop
Hired Hero
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posted July 07, 2011 12:36 PM |
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I did a bit of research and I found that the charge ability gives a multiplier rather than a fixed amount per champion. (It's affected by bless/curse) I also found that the multiplier is determined by an index function, as adding haste (+3 move) increased the multiplier by more than expected if it were a arithmetic progression.
So I found that the multiplier is determined by: f(x)=1.017^x where 'x' is the number of tiles moved. (3 tiles = 1 yard)
Therefore the damage could be calculated by:
D=(atk/def)*(base dmg)*(1.017^[tiles moved])*(no.of units)
I would assume dark champions use the same system, and that would explain why a dark champion charge adds more damage than a normal champion charge. So on a full charge, a single champion deals approximately 40-60 raw damage each (not counting atk/def multiplier). A dark champion would deal approximately 64-90 damage on a full charge, assuming it follows the same rule.
Also, should this be added to the sites description of "charge"? (I really do not know who to contact and am wondering if I should start a new thread for this)
EDIT: Okay, I just did the tests with very huge numbers, and found that the multiplier for a full charge is exactly 1.7, and the more accurate multiplier for any distance is: 1.01784496^x, where 'x' is the number of tiles moved. (1 yard = 3 tiles, combat movement is measured in yards)
EDIT2: I think a better version of the equation would be about: e^(0.0177x), where 'e' is Euler's constant and 'x' is the number of tiles moved. It's essentially the same equation, but the computer likes it better. (and so do mathematicians) It may give a slightly different result in excessively large numbers, but I am unsure as to how to get a more exact value for it.
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dD_ShockTroop
Hired Hero
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posted July 07, 2011 12:43 PM |
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Oh, with the tile thing I'm assuming a line straight along the grid (diagonal 45 degrees). I'm not sure how you could work out how much distance you covered when you are not going parallel to the grid. (unless you went full distance or no distance)
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 07, 2011 01:54 PM |
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40-60? my calculator says that the final multiplyer would be about 1.2. I mean, the number of tiles moved at the max is 10, right? it was their max movement I think.
or is it 1.17^number of tiles?
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dD_ShockTroop
Hired Hero
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posted July 07, 2011 03:05 PM |
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Quote:
or is it 1.17^number of tiles?
No, it's 1.017 to the power of the number of tiles. The champions movement is measured in yards, so it's 1.017^30, because 1 yard = 3 tiles. (Those little hi-res squares) You should end up with a little more than 5/3.
Also, I'd imagine for programming reasons that the number is actually linked to Euler's constant somehow, but what I've got is fairly close.
(I edited this about 5 times, so there might be confusion.)
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 07, 2011 04:42 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 16:50, 07 Jul 2011.
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quick calculation, that gives them the damage of a behemoth with first strike. but they probably still have less defense.
and defense :
champions : 15000
angels : 15640
golem dragons : 14960
titans : 13440
faerie dragons : 12760
phoenix : 15400
mantis : 14280
hydras : 13000
black dragons : 16000
bone dragons : 16500
devils : 13860
behemoth : 16320
sea monsters : 19250
thunderbirds : 15300
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dD_ShockTroop
Hired Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 04:08 AM |
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Quote:
quick calculation, that gives them the damage of a behemoth with first strike.
Lol, I actually never compared the damage they dealt with anything but stationary champion retaliations. (Which always gave the stated value when blessed/cursed) If you have GM tactics (no offence) + haste/speed they deal:
56-84 raw damage
1402-2104 with attack included
Now if we have 4 champions...
224-337 raw
5610-8414 with multiplier.
And that is what happens when you use a linear stat bonus on an exponential function. Likewise, slow (and especially aging) completely destroys their damage. I know it is impossible to get GM tactics without offence, but the point of that is to show how a movement boost affects a champion.
With the same bonuses, 2 dark champions theoretically deal: 7314-10240 damage. This is only because they have 21 movement (63 tiles!!) with both bonuses. Nothing even comes close to this. (good luck moving 21 yards before attacking though) The end multiplier is about 3.05 for that if you're wondering. Compared to DK's usual 2.22 multiplier, this is a huge shift. Perhaps I should make a graph on excel...
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 01:37 PM |
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hum that's better than the black dragons hitting two targets. hydras could do better but need to strike at least 3 opponents at once.
though, a full charge bonus is rare, like attacking 3 opponents at once. the main concern of a champion is to not get blocked, a problem you don't have with the devil for example.
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