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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Questions about religion
Thread: Questions about religion This thread is 100 pages long: 1 10 ... 13 14 15 16 17 ... 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 · «PREV / NEXT»
GunFred
GunFred


Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
posted July 19, 2012 09:12 PM

Any god who brand non-believers and homosexuals as immoral and punish them with eternal suffering is a god that must be fought no matter how futile.

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GunFred
GunFred


Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
posted July 19, 2012 09:12 PM
Edited by GunFred at 21:21, 19 Jul 2012.

Any god who brand non-believers and homosexuals as immoral and punish them with eternal suffering is a god that must be fought no matter how futile.

many religions and ideologies got corrupt morals. If you are free of those it is pretty easy to seperate right from wrong. In general, commiting an act that hurts someone else knowing it will is immoral.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 19, 2012 09:35 PM

JJ:
By thinking that they should have them, and believing and acting accordingly. For example, if I think, "I should be properly benevolent", I think about being benevolent and how a benevolent person would act, then I act that way when I have the opportunity. Either my character will become benevolent immediately from thinking about it, or it will become habituated and I'll become benevolent from habit.
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Eccentric Opinion

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 19, 2012 11:01 PM

HUH?
Why SHOULD "they" want to have them? Why would you feel or think, you "SHOULD" be "properly benevolent"? Looking for some reward?

I mean, that sounds completely absurd. You either ARE benevolent or you are not. And you ARE benevolent, if you were educated in a way that furthers being so which means, that circumstances must be right.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2012 12:09 AM

They should want to have them because it would make them happier, and happiness is good. It has nothing to do with "circumstances".
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2012 12:36 AM

Mvassilev, you CLAIM a ton of things. I feel like I'm taling to someone who explains to me the beauties of living on Planet Clair in the Hot Lava system.
Don't you think you should give some reasoning or even evidence for all those claims about what has to do with what and what not and why and anyhow?

I mean, it's actually worse. IF being benevolent WOULD IN FACT make everyone feel happy - why don't we see a WEALTH of benevolence, an ABUNDANCE of benevolent humans? People learn by example. If people see benevolent behaviour and the consequential happiness of all involved, they will copy that... Go figure.

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fauch
fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2012 12:53 AM
Edited by fauch at 00:55, 20 Jul 2012.

what I usually see is people claming that they acted in a benevolant way, that they then received nothing in return (or maybe just not what they expected) and being very pissed off and claiming that everyone is egoist and that from now on they will also act in an egoist way.

btw, it is kind of funny seeing everyone claim that they are angels from paradise and that everyone else are demons from hell

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted July 20, 2012 01:41 AM

Well,its a tragedy people die because some idiot thinks that tourists are valuable strategic targets. As for Israel pointing fingers at Iran, I wonder how children disguised as politicians got a seat in the government in Israel?

At least they should wait before condemning somebody.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2012 03:39 AM

JJ:
It's a fact about human nature that the possession of these virtues makes people happier. Why are rationalists happier than irrational people? Why are honest people happier than dishonest people? Because there is an inherent connection between virtue and happiness.

We don't see a lot of benevolence? I see a good amount of benevolence every day. I see parents taking care of their children, I see spouses taking care of each other, I see people stopping to help strangers on the side of the road, etc. So there's plenty of benevolence in the world already. Why isn't there more? I can think of two reasons. First, to many people it's not obvious that benevolence is something that would make them happy, by which I mean it's not something that occurs to them. If someone is unhappy, they may simply accept that instead of thinking about how to make themselves happier, and even if they are thinking about that, "I should do more for the people I value" may not be a solution that comes to mind. Second, the influence of cynical detached people. Not only do they not believe that benevolence would make them happier, they also express the viewpoint that benevolent people are fools because "they're not getting anything from it" and are simply being exploited. They say, "You helped him? Why, what's he going to do for you in return?", overlooking the fact that helping someone has already had a positive effect on me.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted July 20, 2012 04:55 AM

Quote:
It's a fact about human nature that the possession of these virtues makes people happier.


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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2012 05:27 AM

To describe it simply: Corribus and JJ, I understand you're both married (though not to each other ). Now suppose one day when you came home, instead of being nice to your wife, you'd punch her in the face. Acting that way would make you less happy, wouldn't it? No, punching someone you love would not only be unjust but also contrary to proper benevolence. Or take a less extreme case - people wanting to help their friends, helping them, and then feeling good about it. Man is a social animal, and benevolence towards those one values is conducive to happiness. Similarly, think of the kinds of people who follow irrational trends - homeopathy, anti-vaccination, The Secret, etc. You'll notice they're not as happy as rational people are. That is because rationality is a virtue - it helps a person learn about the world (and themselves) so they can interact with it optimally.
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Eccentric Opinion

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2012 07:54 AM

All completely SUBJECTIVE.

Think about two different societies. on one hand the US, on the other Saudi Arabia. In the US, would a randomly picked woman be happy about the idea of being spouse 15 and live in a harem?
How would a randomly picked woman feel about that in Saudi Arabia?

In other words "happiness" is dependant on the society you are born into and its rules, because you may perceive things very differently.
That is even true for the basic human desires and their fulfillment, since not even that is independent from education. You definitely CAN educate people in a way that will prevent them from feeling happy when they satisfy their basic needs and desires.

I mean, take John Lennon's Beatles' song "Happiness is a warm Gun". Lennon said, he'd been inspired by the cover of a weapons magazine, which read "Happiness is a Warm Gun in your Hand" (which was basically a variation on the "Happiness is a Warm Puppy" title of a Peanuts Comic book), and Lennon said, it would strike him insane to say something like this, because it would mean you had just shot. something.
Now interestingly enough the song got a lot attention by censors on both sides of the Atlantic and was even banned by the BBC: for MORAL reasons, since the "warm Gun" theme could be interpreted in a sexual sense.

Which closes the circle. Morals are not about happiness, but about the coherence of any given society. A working society is beneficial for its members, raising the general chance of personal happiness for everyone, which means, that morals are about keeping that coherence in the face of the individual pursuing that happiness.

I think, by the way, that it is absolutely IMMORAL to doubt the general equality of people. There is no superiority of one person over another, not in this sense. The idea that there is has had a very large impact on each and every society and is very detrimental to coherence.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2012 09:35 AM

The woman in Saudi Arabia would have been raised to accept that kind of treatment, but she would be happier if she was treated like an equal. Learning to bear something and be happy despite it is not the same as being happy because of it. Happiness is not dependent on society, it's dependent on having a virtuous character, and the kind of virtue that causes happiness is objective because human nature is the same everywhere and has always been the same. Happiness can be and is influenced by other factors in life - your interpersonal relations, whether you have to worry about money, etc. - but virtue is the major component of happiness. Just think about people who "have it all" - rich, don't have to work much, married, physically healthy - and yet they're not happy because they lack virtue.

As for equality - imagine you came across two people drowning in a river. One of them was the average person, and other was mentally retarded. You can only save one of them. Would you choose at random?
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moonlith
moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted July 20, 2012 10:07 AM

Quote:
They should want to have them because it would make them happier, and happiness is good. It has nothing to do with "circumstances".

Bullcrap.

Some people are sadists who become happy from murdering people. Does that make them "good" or "virtuous"?

Oh right, I recall you mentioning that it only applies to "healthy people", so any person with a mental disorder cannot be virtuous and "good".

That alone should ring an alarm bell about your reasoning.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2012 10:12 AM

I think you are dead wrong. A person cannot be happy or unhappy about something outside their experience. A slave can be HAPPY. To say he would happier if he was no slave, is complete and utter nonsense, because as a slave you live in a different frame of reference than as another person, and those frames are relativistic and therefor incomparable.
Happiness is RELATIVE, not absolute. Absolutely spoken, there could never be happiness because of the inability of humans to stop in a moment of happinesse consists of. All things must pass.
This means, happiness is a very LOCAL and RELATIVE state or condition,, and to be felt it MUST be so - if it was permanent it wouldn't be registered as such.

And while human nature is basically the same, society and education make them different enough and can even pervert them.

I also miss logic, proof, reason and evidence for your claims.

And to answer your question, if I had to save someone I would save the person that needed it most (lesser chances to save him/herself or to survive) or was EASIER FOR me to save. If there was no difference there (it's clear I have one try ONLY and for the other there is no survival chance) I might pick the younger person. If both were equally old, I'd pick woman over man. In any case I'd pick someone I know over someone I didn't, and that might be the mentally retarded person - how would I know otherwise he was mentally retarded? The "average Joe" means, I know nothing about the other person who might be a serial killer as well as a saint, so why would I pick the average Joe?
In fact, with your measuring of people's lifeworthiness and disregard for the mentally retarded you are in really good company - Nazi Germany certainly saw THAT as well which should strike you odd, at least.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted July 20, 2012 03:59 PM

Quote:
@Mvass

Below I have edited and expanded an answer I gave on the question of the basis morality some time ago. I hope this helps you understand what I believe.


Deity, humanity, and morality

Why there is no basis for morality if there is no God

Morality poses a very difficult problem for a materialistic atheistic world view. Certainly atheists can be moral people with great integrity. Most believe in the concepts of right and wrong. However, these concepts are illogical and inconsistent within a worldview in which God does not exist. When a materialistic atheist uses the concepts of morality and immorality he is borrowing from a theistic worldview. If the universe came into being from a steady state of absolute nothing without a cause that means evolution is non-theistic--there is no guiding hand behind it which means there is no basis for morality.

Non-theistic evolution
1) is based merely on chance--random events.  It is a blind, with no purpose other than to benefit the propagation of one’s genes.  
2)  is merely survival of the fittest with the weak dying out or being exterminated to make way for "the strong ."
3) implies there is no such thing as a moral or immoral action.

In a world without God there is no absolute morality. No objective standard by which to measure what is ‘good’. What is moral or immoral is merely a matter of personal opinion and indeed the concept of morality makes no sense.  "Might" is "right." The strong exterminating the weak is natural. There is no basis in such a worldview to say a person who kills another to take what is wanted committed an immoral act. Might is right.

Hitler (the  ultimate "strong" person in Germany)  decided to exterminate the Jews, who were in no position to oppose him (they were "weak.") So, on what basis would an atheist say Hitler committed an immoral act and on what basis is that the objective standard for judging morality? There have obviously been people who agreed with Hitler and people who disagreed with Hitler. Neither group's position is moral or immoral if morality is not absolute. It is obvious that morality based on societal whims or personal whims is inconsistent and contradictory.

4) The concept of charity, essentially "the strong" helping "the weak," is counter to the idea of non-theistic evolution. A person who helps a random stranger with no expectation of personal gain is foolish for expending his resources without gain, making him weaker and less likely to survive.

Does this mean those holding to non-theist evolution cannot live a moral, ethical life? No. But when they see unethical behavior by others, they have no logical grounds on which to judge that behavior as wrong. It may be their choice to be faithful to their spouse, and to do good to others. But it may be another’s choice to sleep around on his spouse, or to take advantage of everyone around them in order to get ahead. If non-theistic evolution is true, then neither position is right or wrong. Just different choices. In a world without God it can't be justified to call rape, murder, theft, or anything else morally wrong. The concept of morality simply can't be justified in a world view in which God does not exist.

Either morality is absolute or morality does not  exist. Subjective morality is nothing more than opinions. Subjective morals change with time, differ between places, and  differ from person to person.  If morality is subjective raping and murdering a baby is not less moral than stopping to assist a stranger who is lying unconscious on the street.


The Foundation of morality

The Bible begins with, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1) and goes on to say God made man in his image. As creations of God we are obligated to live according to his standard. Moreover, because man was made in the image of God (though that image in man is now marred) man is a moral being who partially reflects the character of God. The Bible teaches that God has written his Law on man's heart(Romans 2:15). Man has the ability to discover moral principles through contemplation of himself and the world around him and through fellowship with God.

The foundation of morality is God's will and his perfect and unchanging nature..Actions that are in opposition to God's permissive will or character are immoral.

As I have stated in other discussions, when God gave the Ten Commandments he was not giving a new revelation of morality but saying, "these moral principles that you know are the way I created you to be and I will hold you responsible for living by them." The Hebrew people already knew it was wrong to lie and murder before the Ten Commandments were given. Now they were told they were accountable for living that way and that God was the very reason for the existence of those moral precepts. Thus basic moral principles are God-given, written in human nature, recognizable by human reason, and applicable to all of humanity everywhere humankind lives.

Above I said that man has the ability to discover moral principles. Man does not have the ability to make moral principles. Morality is objective, not subjective. Neither the political rule of the many nor the rule of "religious elites" can by decree make something moral or immoral. Congress can't pass a law tomorrow saying that it is ok to rape babies and actually make it morally ok to rape babies.  A society based around hating and killing Jews would not make hating and killing Jews in fact moral. Legality does not establish morality. Likewise, religious leaders can't make moral principles. A denominational church board or a pope can't declare that adultery is no longer immoral and make it in actuality a moral action.

A purely materialistic worldview rationally has no standard of morality. If one makes a claim that morality is based merely on man's genetic makeup and that the genetic makeup had no divine hand in it several questions are raised.

1) Which DNA stand encodes morality?

2) If such a strand exists, by what standard can we recognize that what is encoded is right or wrong?

3) If Mao Tse-Tsung’s DNA strand says murdering millions of Chinese people is morally permissible for him then is what he did wrong or right?

4)  If genes determine morality why was slavery considered moral 200 years ago but then suddenly it began to be considered immoral, at least in the West. Did man have an evolutionary leap where the genes of even living person suddenly changed? Are the people in societies that still have slavery less evolved than people in the parts of the world that don't approve of slavery?

5) If genes determine morality are people who disagree with society about what is moral genetically defective or more evolved, and on what standard will you make that judgment?

Why did God "write" certain moral standards within man?

1) Because he wanted to have other beings like himself to fellowship with. Thus man was made in the image of God so he could fellowship with God.

2) So man could fellowship with each other. There is an absolute standard on which societies can be built and prosper.

3) People are precious to God. God desires the best for each of us. God designed us and knows what is best for us.

4) So everyone who wanted to know how God wants us to live can know how God wants us to live. The internal standard God has written within man that is knowable by man and God holds man accountable for living by those standards.


Summary

To summarize, absolute morals are based on the perfect and unchanging character of God. God has internalized moral precepts in man and made it possible for moral precepts to be known by man and man is held accountable for living a moral life. The fallen nature of man imperfectly reflects the character of God.  The Christian worldview can logically claim morality is absolute since Christianity views morality as being based on the perfect, unchanging nature of God. The atheistic worldview cannot claim absolute morality because it can only offer only a morality based on personal opinion or the whims of society--such a morality is relativistic: inconsistent and self-contradictory across time and places mankind lives.

Maybe you should read some lines of Kon-Fu-Tse and his sayings about personal and social morality, then you would (perhaps) get some new points of view...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2012 06:18 PM

JJ:
But I have the same human nature as a slave. If the effects a state of being (in this case, being virtuous) has on someone is dependent on their nature, and their nature is the same, then we can say what effects it would have on someone who hasn't experienced it. Also, I never said a slave couldn't be happy.
I don't understand what you mean when you say happiness is relative. I'm going to have to ask you to clarify. I've given you plenty of examples that back up my claims, but you're overlooking them.

When asking questions about moral hypotheticals such as "two people drowning in a river", you should assume that they're identical in every way apart from the difference specified. So they're both strangers. But you also said that you'd save someone you know over someone you didn't. Is that because you place a higher value on someone you know? In that case, you don't believe all people are equal either.
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Eccentric Opinion

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2012 07:23 PM
Edited by xerox at 19:30, 20 Jul 2012.

Morals confuse me.  

I am an atheist that is convinced that generally, morals are subjective. Of course, there are some morals that pretty much all people share because morals such as "Don't kill each other", makes us stronger as a species. But a lot of other morals are not shared between different cultures. Take eating pork for instance. In Europe, there's nothing wrong with it while in the Muslim world, the pig is seen as a foul animal whos meat is immoral to consume.

Because moral is largerly subjective, I don't want it to be a legislative factor. For instance, I'm against it being forbidden to buy sex, because the reason of that law existing is because the societal norms here have dictated that prostiution is immoral.

Yet, I agree with having laws that prohibits drugs, that raises taxes on alcohol and cigaretes, that forces people to pay taxes in order to pay for the weakest individuals of society. I don't think corporations should be able to not hire gays, because I believe that we are all born equal and should treat each others as such. Aren't my views on these things based on morals? Or do I support those laws not because of morals, but because not having them would have a negative impact on the wellbeing of the society?
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2012 08:03 PM

Quote:
JJ:
But I have the same human nature as a slave. If the effects a state of being (in this case, being virtuous) has on someone is dependent on their nature, and their nature is the same, then we can say what effects it would have on someone who hasn't experienced it. Also, I never said a slave couldn't be happy.
I don't understand what you mean when you say happiness is relative. I'm going to have to ask you to clarify. I've given you plenty of examples that back up my claims, but you're overlooking them.

When asking questions about moral hypotheticals such as "two people drowning in a river", you should assume that they're identical in every way apart from the difference specified. So they're both strangers. But you also said that you'd save someone you know over someone you didn't. Is that because you place a higher value on someone you know? In that case, you don't believe all people are equal either.

I think you are mistaking a couple opf things here. Of course FOR ME, that is, my subjective point of view not all people are equal. Family and friends before everyone else. BUT SO IT IS FOR EVERYONE. Society consists of as many subjective points of view as there are members - and every single one of them is equally important. Not for me, of course, but so it is for everyone. My opinion isn't better or worse than the opinion of my neighbor.
That's the meaning of everyone is equal. Everyone has the same "weight".

About happiness and relativity. Everyone has their own frame of reference for happiness. A person born blind will not be on a lower happiness level because he's handicapped. He doesn't know any other state, so being blind is normal and no reason to be unhappy. A guy having been lost in a desert somewhere will be ecstatic about a cup of water and a slice of bread.
Happiness DEPENDS. That's why a person born rich isn't happy because of that. He was born that way, so it's the normal state of things. That's why a slave can be happy.
Education trumps human naturebecause the mind can trump it and minds can be warped. The mind determines the condition of existance. With the wrong input you can feel guilt instead of happiness, hate instead of love and so on.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2012 08:52 PM

Xerox:
Disagreement does not imply subjectivity. Suppose I say the Earth's mass is slightly below 6*10^24 kg, and someone else says it's 1 kg. Does that mean that the Earth's mass is subjective? Or is the person who says it's 1 kg simply wrong?
Also, basing your politics on "the well-being of society" is also a form of morals. It presupposes that "the well-being of society" is a valid concept, and that it is good to promote it.

JJ:
So we've established that no one thinks all people are equal. Everyone thinks those close to them are more important than strangers. What's evil about that?

A blind person, a slave, and a normal person could have different normal levels of happiness, but that doesn't mean they're equally happy at their normal level. Take, for example, a depressed person - their "normal" level is unhappy. That's an absolute measure of happiness. I don't dispute happiness depends on many factors - it's possible to be a happy slave or a miserable rich person. What I'm arguing in favor of is virtue being the major component of happiness, and it being independent of life circumstances.
It's certainly possible to warp the mind to make it interpret the world differently - but if this warping was fixed, people would be happier. Their human nature is still there, even if their education was wrong.
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