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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 19, 2013 08:43 PM |
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Edited by Ghost at 06:48, 20 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
Book of Mormon is a scam.
Of course that's only my opinion, no offence to Mormons 
Today, I got the Book of Mormon!
Ok I read. Later, I'll tell something interesting.
Hm Israelites are traveled to America. They stayed in America. Later, Joseph. History!
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i do like how they supposedly can have more than one wife in marriage, in practice
Man's marriage of two or more of the surviving wife. The man is authorized to have only one wife, unless the Lord command the notice otherwise (Jacob. 2:27-30). According to the notification plural marriage was practiced in possession of keys of the priesthood kept the command of the prophet in the Old Testament times and in the early days of the restored Church (D & C 132:34-40, 45). It is no longer practiced in the church (VJ 1), now a man, who has more than one wife, there can be no Latter-day Saints Church of Jesus Christ member.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 20, 2013 08:01 AM |
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Quote:
looks like i will be joining the peyote way church of god, instead.
i can feel the lord in me already... 
..or Rigveda
Hints at the myth of an apple tree? Yggdrasil or Yazidi Black Book?
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 27, 2013 09:19 PM |
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Here is something that I find interesting:
From wiki "Consensus reality is that which is generally agreed to be reality, based on a consensus view.".
In this case, I assume that in theocacies, their text book describes reality and it is safe to assume that most people vigorously believe in that, so it is same to assume that 99% of people are into those beliefs.
So this raises a question "Throughout history this has also raised a social question: "What shall we make of those who do not agree with consensus realities of others, or of the society they live in?""
In this case we atheists can be sure that "Others" are wrong because they base their reality on mere beliefs and non of them are based on facts, evidence or physical laws. Yes, I am talking about the belief in Gods, miracles, angels and so on.
Since no consensus can ever be formed, this will lead to problems, social unrest and so on, if the community with another consensus on reality grows.
So people, how would you tackle this problem?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 27, 2013 09:22 PM |
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Of course the way it's been dealt with in the past is to just burn the heretics.
But I'm not sure why there has to be consensus. The mark of a modern, civilized society is that we can respect each others' different beliefs. We're not quite there yet, but it's something to build toward.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 27, 2013 09:30 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:41, 27 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
In this case, I assume that in theocacies, their text book describes reality and it is safe to assume that most people vigorously believe in that, so it is same to assume that 99% of people are into those beliefs.
We talked about this before if I remember correctly, but whatever...
That's not true, to most people it's just a family tradition, a cultural heritage. They don't even read the scriptures put aside believing in them, even in the US which is known to be quite puritanical that is the regular situation most of the time, listen to Steven Weinberg:
Youtube
I'm sure it was quite different before the 18th century and so on but even back then I wouldn't assume 99 percent of the people were assertive about their faith.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 27, 2013 09:53 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 21:55, 27 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
Of course the way it's been dealt with in the past is to just burn the heretics.
Thats one way of dealing with it I guess. It happens all the time in the middle east in the form of car bombs.
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But I'm not sure why there has to be consensus. The mark of a modern, civilized society is that we can respect each others' different beliefs.
Well, not if ones belief is to not believe in the right to have different beliefs. In this case: Person A does not believe in the right of B to show a different belief, therefore person B becomes a target for harrasment, death threats or murder.
Quote:
We talked about this before if I remember correctly, but whatever...
Not specifically about consensus reality. A population or society has to accept a consensus reality and there is only one consensus reality. If there are two that oppose each other, one has to pass away.
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That's not true, to most people it's just a family tradition, a cultural heritage. They don't even read the scriptures put aside believing in them, even in the US which is known to be quite puritanical that is the regular situation most of the time, listen to
I'm sure it was quite different before the 18th century and so on but even back then I wouldn't imagine 99 percent of the people were assertive about their faith.
Its not easy not to slip over here by some logical fallacy, so let me try:
Its not about being literal, its about accepting a consensus about a thing that would describe reality, in this case that God does exist, X prophet is the creator or sharia is "Perfect".
If one does believe prophet X meant this or that is irrelevant, they already are talking about a prophet so they are talking about a common consensual reality.
In my opinion, those that do not want to live and tolerate a society with different beliefs have no need to be or exist in that society.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 27, 2013 10:06 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:10, 27 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
Its not about being literal, its about accepting a consensus about a thing that would describe reality, in this case that God does exist, X prophet is the creator or sharia is "Perfect".
If one does believe prophet X meant this or that is irrelevant, they already are talking about a prophet so they are talking about a common consensual reality.
Well, to put it more bluntly, most people don't give a squat what their neighbor or their co-worker or the guy at the grocery believe or not believe in. In the Middle-East, they may care if you want to marry their daughter or something but that's about it. And of course there are cases of lynchings and mobs shouting out slogans etc etc. But those are each individual cases that have to be examined with the triggering incidents. (Not trying to justify them btw, don't read it like that.)
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In my opinion, those that do not want to live and tolerate a society with different beliefs have no need to be or exist in that society.
Well in a modern democracy those who can not manage to co-exist and act criminally are put in jail and other than that what else can you do? And why should you? You can't outlaw people's opinions, if you do, then it becomes you who's the fanatic.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 27, 2013 10:29 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:30, 27 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
Thats a grey spot actually. The cases are certainly not individual, I disagree there. Lets assume a new guy goes comes into a neighbourhood and the neighbourhood is fanatical or motivated to be fanatical. I get on the motivated part a bit. Those guys in the neighbourhood will either harras and or kill the new guy even if the gov says or proclaims it is illegal or so thats all because this new guy does not share the views of the others.
I meant individual case as in "not typical social behavior." Yes, these things happen and all of us wish they didn't. But they are not as common and considered as normal as you indicate, not even in the Middle East.
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Well, you certainly dont know that people get away with harrasment and death threats all the time. The authorities do 99% of the time nothing,or worse, they indict the victims for promoting "Violence".
Happens all the time and this is not even just confined to differing beliefs, all you gotta do is have special people who would want to do that.
Same as above.
Quote:
So, I am trying to say that two differing beliefs cannot co exist and that when conflicts happen, it means that one group is taking up arms to kill the opposition.
They can co-exist and they do.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 06, 2013 09:31 AM |
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Why do we paint eggs on Easter, why do some worship the Virgin Mary? Because of paganism. The cult of a mother goddess of the earth was still going strong so convieniently they gave the pagans Mary to worship instead when theyw ere christened. As for the eggs and the bunny, it's yet another pagan thign. Don't even get me started on the Christmas season.
So while I appreciate these holidays as an opportunity to spend more time with my family, I do not consider them Christian holidays, in fact nowhere in the New Testament does it say Christians should have any holidays. But I know this:
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 06, 2013 02:10 PM |
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It's how religions have practiced conquest for ages: build your temples on top of their temples, and your holidays on top of their holidays.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted May 06, 2013 02:13 PM |
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Stalinesque.
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 07, 2013 04:10 PM |
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Quote:
Why do we paint eggs on Easter, why do some worship the Virgin Mary? Because of paganism. The cult of a mother goddess of the earth was still going strong so convieniently they gave the pagans Mary to worship instead when theyw ere christened. As for the eggs and the bunny, it's yet another pagan thign. Don't even get me started on the Christmas season.
So while I appreciate these holidays as an opportunity to spend more time with my family, I do not consider them Christian holidays, in fact nowhere in the New Testament does it say Christians should have any holidays. But I know this:
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.
Holidays are not wrong. Christian holidays are not wrong. In the Old Covenant there were many "holidays" (holy days/sabbaths.)
Celebrating the resurrection of Christ is certaily appropriate for Christians as without the resurrection the death of Christ would have been meaningless. And you can bet the disciples, once they got over the shock were celebrating the resurrection.
Likewise the birth of Christ. Angels celebrated, shepherds celebrated, the wise men celebrated, and you can bet Mary and Joseph celebrated.
Oh, and in fairness to Catholics Catholicism does not teach one to worship Mary. They believe that believers who die can be talked to and that those believers can intercede with God on their behalf and that asking them to do so is no different than asking a fellow Christian on earth to pray for you.
I think it is quite appropriate to praise God at any time and that setting aside certain days as "memorials"/landmarks is a good thing, as long as the worship is done from the heart, not out of "vain repetition" or for appearances sake.
Quote:
Luk 2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luk 2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Luk 2:12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
____________
Revelation
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 07, 2013 04:15 PM |
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Quote:
It's how religions have practiced conquest for ages: build your temples on top of their temples, and your holidays on top of their holidays.
And atheists have simply razed temples to the ground, burned holy books and murdered people for believing in a deity. It is simply the way atheism has been practiced.
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Revelation
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 07, 2013 04:20 PM |
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And today the majority of atrocious acts through the world are carried under the name of religion, the list is long...you can deny for hours that once they commit crimes they are no longer religious, they still think they are.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 07, 2013 04:23 PM |
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Quote:
And today the majority of atrocious acts through the world are carried under the name of religion, the list is long...you can deny for hours that once they commit crimes they are no longer religious, they still think they are.
Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and a dozen lesser know atheists have cumulatively murdered far, far more people than all other religions combined for all of recorded history. When atheists start pointing their bony fingers at other religions they'd do well to bear that in mind.
____________
Revelation
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 07, 2013 04:25 PM |
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Yep, your list is long, mine too. Guess what: human remains human, religious or not, he will still do wrong to others as soon as he feels the opportunity to step for power.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 07, 2013 04:34 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:36, 07 May 2013.
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Quote:
Quote:
It's how religions have practiced conquest for ages: build your temples on top of their temples, and your holidays on top of their holidays.
And atheists have simply razed temples to the ground, burned holy books and murdered people for believing in a deity. It is simply the way atheism has been practiced.
It's funny how when even someone states an obvious historical fact you perceive it as a ping-pong battle of posts between Christians and atheists. I guess soon, you'll stars saying things like "I'm the rubber and you're the glue, whatever you say comes back and sticks to you."
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 07, 2013 04:41 PM |
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Quote:
Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and a dozen lesser know atheists have cumulatively murdered far, far more people than all other religions combined for all of recorded history.
Lenin and Stalin were raised in Christian families - Stalin was actually going to be a priest. Pol Pot was a buddhist and he believed that "heaven, destiny, wants him to guide Cambodia in the way he thinks it the best for Cambodia".
And don't get me started on how Adolf Hitler got actually elected...
Also, saying "You killed more people than me, so you're worse" is just moronic and very immoral. That's a pure hypocrisy. But well - it's a religion. Nihil novi sub sole.
____________
Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 07, 2013 04:44 PM |
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@ Elodin
It's stuff like the Christmas Tree, easter hare and eggs that have nothing to do with Christianity and are wrongly associated with Christianity by those who don't know any better.
Nothing wrong in celebrating Christmas or Easter but I wouldn't overdo it. I don't need a day to celebrate the birth of Christ or the resurrection, I think Christians should feel the joy in their hearts all the time for those things.
Hobbit - so you're basically saying the Catholic Church is as bad as Stalin because of the inquisition? Sorry but it's pretty clear who was worse, and I don't need a body count to say that.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 07, 2013 04:50 PM |
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Quote:
It's funny how when even someone states an obvious historical fact you perceive it as a ping-pong battle of posts between Christians and atheists. I guess soon, you'll stars saying things like "I'm the rubber and you're the glue, whatever you say comes back and sticks to you."
Islam and Iran!
Ok Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. - Matthew. Paul's understanding of Romans 13 meant obedience to the kind of government.
Hm renegade?!
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