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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 23, 2013 08:53 PM |
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There have been thousands of good (loosely said ofc) folks that have died for others, for a belief, etc. but Christ does much more than make a good sacrifice of himself, what he taught and how he backed-it-up with his example has taught me all I need to know. Now if you think you have an equal to Christ in your life, then I guess you need to go for it.
artu said:
... what good comes from turning him into a deity? Isn't it much more meaningful when a simple man does that?
The fact is "He did not deny that he was the Son of God" and then died for letting it stand; but, he went much further by making a "Godly" promise for you and I. Now either he was a lying nutcase or he was being truthful. I believe the latter...much to your dismay I'm sure. 
I'll retire form this thread, I'm not trying to convert anyone, just sharing that Faith can be a very good thing and that I didn't arrive where I am on some non-thinking-whim or by some pre-existing cause.<L>
Cheers Artu
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 23, 2013 09:14 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:23, 23 Jul 2013.
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Quote:
There have been thousands of good (loosely said ofc) folks that have died for others, for a belief, etc. but Christ does much more than make a good sacrifice of himself, what he taught and how he backed-it-up with his example has taught me all I need to know. Now if you think you have an equal to Christ in your life, then I guess you need to go for it.
I don't perceive any of these debates as an opportunity to "convert" people. Even if such a thing is possible, I'm sure internet forums aren't the platform for it. But I must say your comment is kind of dealing with things like it's a championship: There are impressive historical figures in every person's life, as a teenager for example, I was very impressed reading Dostoyevsky's life, how he turned his exile into an instrument for self-progress and depth. I was also very impressed by the lives of Diderot, Mozart... or Socrates among many I can't instantly list now. I don't however, think I need to "go for it." I just, can learn many things from all of them.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 24, 2013 12:03 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 00:07, 24 Jul 2013.
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@Sal
Quote:
I am glad your sister made in. But of course I think you lie by greatly exaggerating things.
Calling me a liar for relating what happened to my sister is uncalled for. Dispite hundreds of millions of people currently alive having experienced miracles all anti-theists can do is say, "Nuh-uh, liar!"
Quote:
I am assuming nothing. You say god hears prayers and that hundred of millions (!) witnessed miracles. I am just asking why god NEVER hears amputees, since we have not a single report of restored limbs ( except in the bible, along with moving mountains and splitting seas).
I already answered your "question." But your "question" was a dogmatic statement. You said, "No matter how devout you are, you will never get 100$ if you pray for, or get your limbs healed. Never."
Can you prove that if I were an amputee that I'll never get my limbs healed or get all I pray for? Nope. Just dogmatic claims without a shred of proof.
@artu
artu said:
Quote:
Your continued insults and provocation is saddening.
They are not insults, as you admitted yourself so proudly "you dont wear kiddie gloves" while debating either. Action causes reaction. So, even if we disagree with them sometimes, let's just stick to the judgement of the mods on this. I really don't want to explain why this and that is not an insult on every single post. If it is, it will be edited anyway.
I really don't have to wonder if you calling me a shameless indecent liar who lives in a fantasyland and twists concepts is an insult or not. I kindly asked you to cease your provocation, as I have (with no results) asked you in the past.
Before when I said I don't wear kiddie gloves I did not mean I insult people. I meant I'll aggressively press my case in debates.
Quote:
Remember, my objection was about you linking the article as proof and documentation of such experiences as an authentic interaction with God.
No, I linked to the article to refute your false claim that people who claim to hear from God are mentally ill. She unequivocally states that is not the case.
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And if we go back to the core of it, we still arrive at this:
There are many people, who experience such stuff. They experience deities that are not compatible, that is, these deities can not co-exist. So, when someone else's deity is in question, you can only assume two things:
1- They are lying.
2- It is some sort of psychological deception.
Or
3) The person is deceived by malevolent entitie(s)
Quote:
We'll give everyone the benefit of doubt here and assume they are not lying. If such self-deception applies to them, it also applies to you. And if it applies to you also, you can no longer categorize your experience as evidence, even in the broadest sense.
My experiences with God are evidence of God. 
Quote:
But, say, if I take the example of Hobbit:
Quote:
I assume that if you saw someone from your family that died several years ago just passing you by on the street, you wouldn't try to convince ANYONE that he's alive and everyone who doesn't agree with you has some irrational beliefs (opposed to "totally rational" beliefs about such dead person). It's because your personal experiences aren't reliable when it comes to facts, even to your family.
we then follow a different path, we question our five senses because we have a rational reason to. Talking to a God which turns staffs into snakes is a very very good reason to do the aforementioned.
Actually, if I thought I saw someone from my family who had died I'd approach that person and see if they were actually that family member or if they just looked like him.
My personal experiences with God are much more reliable than someone repeating "God does not not exist" with no evidence to back their claims. I know God. You can't know "not God."
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 24, 2013 12:47 AM |
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Edited by artu at 01:07, 24 Jul 2013.
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Quote:
No, I linked to the article to refute your false claim that people who claim to hear from God are mentally ill. She unequivocally states that is not the case.
She unequivocally states that is not the case because there are some special conditions which if had not existed, would be the case.
Quote:
I really don't have to wonder if you calling me a shameless indecent liar who lives in a fantasyland and twists concepts is an insult or not. I kindly asked you to cease your provocation, as I have (with no results) asked you in the past.
I will not go quote hunting on this one. But I asked you many times not to ignore answers (with no results). You can go as sarcastic as you want on whatever I say, as long as you acknowledge an answer has been given. What I find indecent and shameless are two things:
1- Deliberately ignoring answers as a tactical stance.
2- Just making up things beyond opinion. You can not expect not to be called shameless if you say things like "Others have formally "put him in his place" publicly by showing how illogical, unreasoned, and unscientific his book is." as if others say there is a God. You had been given statistics about the belief in God among scientists in this thread many times. I EMPHASIZE, not even your mythological God but ANY God. Yet, you feel no shame to claim the opinion is unscientific. What am I supposed to call this deliberate denial?
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Actually, if I thought I saw someone from my family who had died I'd approach that person and see if they were actually that family member or if they just looked like him.
You were both on the highway in cars. You couldn't do that.
Quote:
Or 3) The person is deceived by malevolent entitie(s)
If what you mean is being possessed by demons or something, sorry, I just cant take that stuff seriously. Honestly, it's beneath me.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 24, 2013 01:21 AM |
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Elodin said:
Can you prove that if I were an amputee that I'll never get my limbs healed or get all I pray for? Nope. Just dogmatic claims without a shred of proof.
Ok let's play to whose is bigger. Your sister healed and you call it a miracle. Can you prove why it is impossible for her healing to have occurred naturally?
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 24, 2013 01:30 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 01:46, 24 Jul 2013.
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Quote:
My experiences with God are evidence of God.
Good one elodin, this should be enough evidence(Oh the irony) that you are here just for the sake of trolling or simply do not posses the education or knowledge to understand what evidence is.
You know, I wonder what would you do if one of your children, nephews or whatever turned Homosexual. I bet you would be able to deal with that because the "Lord never puts events into our lives that we cant handle".
And before you say: Homosexuality is a sin in christianity and the other abrahamic religions.
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Drakon-Deus 
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 24, 2013 01:50 AM |
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the famous seraphim logic: If you're not like seraphim, you're a troll. It doesn't matter if you're always on topic, you're still a troll because you dare to be a theist, you should be ashamed of yourself.
[/sarcasm]
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 24, 2013 04:12 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 04:59, 24 Jul 2013.
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Drakon-Deus said:
the famous seraphim logic: If you're not like seraphim, you're a troll. It doesn't matter if you're always on topic, you're still a troll because you dare to be a theist, you should be ashamed of yourself.
[/sarcasm]
I love counter trolling someone and then receiving an ad hominem fallacy from someone else. Dont you find it ironic that the thing you accuse me off is the same thing you just did.
Hey, if you feel proctective about elodin, just use some arguments as to why supposedly evidence=Personal experience.
Well, my post was not exactly refuting elodins point but saying "personal experience is evidence" with a smiley is just provocative and is = Trolling.
How about "I have personal experience with a giant sea horse and it told me that it is god" That is evidence and I double dare you to prove me wrong. My experience is irrefutable!
If thats the case, we might just as well start writing fan fiction.
Before someone goes on to defend something, lets agree on a defined language and be serious.
If someone believes something, and that someone wants to prove that something, that person needs to provide quantifiable, reproducible and measurable data and NOT "I heard some voices or my sister got cured from what I believe to be uncurable illness".
If something becomes "evidence" after believing in something, than that is a delusion.
But hey, if you are told the same thing 999 times and you cant argue against it and still keep using the baseless arguments and even go into lengths to justify personal experience as evidence, then thats trolling because one can easily argue that is deliberate upsetting.
Miracles are the divine intervention of God. If God intervenes and believers see somebody get cured or saved, then the so CALLED free will argument is NULL and VOID because at LEAST the cured person will never doubt GOD. But hey, lets nitpick and assume that MIRACLES are A-OK.
Why does god not intervene and save tumor ridden infant? And there are 100k whys here. It does not even make sense.
1+1=2 But if you keep saying 3 then either you are doing so deliberately or there is something else going on there.
That person can easily say, why is "1+1=2"? and that can be proven but alas that person goes on using the same arguments over and over and over again.
You know, you cant do math with a machine that switches values randomly, sometimes 1+1=2 sometimes its 1+1=3 and no, 1 does not represent a symbol in this case, but a value.
One has to agree on a common language and set of rules to communicate and exchange information, not magic and fiction
But hey, ignore my posts everybody, its ever so delightful to read in here.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 24, 2013 08:03 AM |
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I was being sarcastic.
Why is it so hard for you to accept that some people genuinely believe in God or are just spiritual and/or religious?
Let's assume I believe in mermaids, or I believe in Greek gods. I'm a troll if I say that I have evidence because of personal experience?
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 24, 2013 08:18 AM |
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The evidence isn't verifiable. Neither for anyone of us nor, actually, for yourself. Even if God spoke to you directly, you still wouldn't know whether it was some queer trick of your mind or you were actually losing it.
So you believe in God, you have your reasons, but nothing about that qualifies as evidence in any meaningful sense.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 24, 2013 08:25 AM |
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But it's evidence to me. That's why it's called personal experience. It doesn't matter what others think.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 24, 2013 08:41 AM |
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Sure. But there's nothing to discuss - the "evidence" doesn't change anything, except that the claimer tries to fortify their position, which automatically weakens it, because the "evidence" is and can be evidence only for the claimer.
It makes no sense to defend a belief with personal and subjective evidence, because doing so admits that you want to appear "rational". ("But I have EVIDENCE for my belief.")
There is nothing wrong in simply BELIEVING and admitting to it. Everyone believes a lot of stuff, without ever doubting the truth of it.
That's what is wrong with the discussion here.
"Why do you believe?"
"Because it feels right for me."
Case closed.
Now, the REAL problem - why the discussions are endless - isn't the belief, but the consequences. If you start to "judge" people's behavior or doings with some yardstick you have conjured out of some old writings, you will get a problem. Belief is personal. Judgement is for God.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 24, 2013 08:52 AM |
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I totally agree with you on this, JJ. I don't want to discuss my personal experiences with other people either, and I don't want to judge.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 24, 2013 03:55 PM |
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@artu
I've been meaning to ask you for quite a while, is there any danger of your government being taken over by religious zealots?
Contrary to some Christians in America I don't want any religion running Washington. Throughout History, that's always ended badly.
True "freedom from religious persecution" blocks both directions that persecution could come. i.e. because you are something or because you are not something. I treasure total freedom for everyone to decide who they are and what they believe. i.e.; I've never been in favor of a law that forces public school-prayer; which is contrary to what Christ taught about "the inner-chamber and NOT being a public spectacle" <imo> It's a very private discipline that has no place in forced public displays.
I admit, I do "wish" I had some place to go and be in more God-respecting environment but then I'd probably find myself running from Christian-zealots, building an earthly empire and out to burn me because I actually follow the simplicity of what Christ taught. 
@JJ
Took me a bit to read your long post about time; fyi, it took the zip right out of my coffee. Anyway, interesting ideas.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 24, 2013 03:57 PM |
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I too am for separation of church and state in all cases. Religion shouldn't be enforced.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 24, 2013 04:44 PM |
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markkur said:
@JJ
Took me a bit to read your long post about time; fyi, it took the zip right out of my coffee. Anyway, interesting ideas.
Thanks.
(By the way, have been wrestling with my 4-track yesterday, but to no avail - seem to have a faulty adapter for the PC-connection. I'll keep you posted.)
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 24, 2013 04:50 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:55, 24 Jul 2013.
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Quote:
I've been meaning to ask you for quite a while, is there any danger of your government being taken over by religious zealots?
If you mean switching to Sharia Law, that's almost impossible. Turkey is a EU candidate, NATO member, has multicultural historic background as an empire and a secular republic since 1923. It is integrated with the West both politically and economically. However, a heavily Muslim conservative party is in power for more than ten years now, they have no political rival that can outvote them, so the secular Turks are quite tense all the time. The problems are:
1- Nepotism: Filling all the slots in institutions and giving all the bidding contracts to their men. There is constant rumor that the exams for university (kind of like your SAT's I guess) are rigged. The Islamic sects are very interlocked.
2- Education: All selective courses are things like Muhammed's Life, Quran, History of Religion (read:Islam) etc etc. Not in big cities, but everywhere else especially girls are imposed to a very conservative life style.
3- The Prime Minister. To him, the muslims are the "real" people and rest of us are corrupted snobs. He, of course, does not directly say that. But you can read it between the lines in almost all of his speeches. He's also known to be a furious character, some anger management would fit in well.
4- Not Sharia Law, but the AK party, needless to mention, passes laws as conservative as possible. This year for example, they banned selling of alcohol in grocery stores past 22:00. They tried to outlaw abortion but that backfired, too much reaction. Also some conservative judges let rapers go free or give them very light sentences sometimes, especially if the rape victim is "dressed loose."
5- Freedom of speech and press: It's getting harder to directly criticize religion AND AK Party. Nothing too strict like in Arabic countries but it's very probable that you'll get sued and sentenced if you write stuff like "Muhammed was a delusional tyrant" etc etc.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 24, 2013 05:27 PM |
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That is a sober and scary read Artu. I don't how you can say it's impossible for the zealous to take over. Big change often happens in small steps and it seems that many non-freedom things have already taken place.
After reading that, I understand you better; meaning I've thought you have been a little to passionate (at times) about Religious-discussion but I see now you need to be.
"Sort of like"; It's 75<F> where I live and I'm flippantly saying I wish it was like 85 but you're in a spot where it's 110.
____________
"Do your own research"
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 24, 2013 05:34 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:35, 24 Jul 2013.
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markkur said:
"Sort of like"; It's 75<F> where I live and I'm flippantly saying I wish it was like 85 but you're in a spot where it's 110.
LOL. Exactly. I know it makes me just a little bit aggressive in debates about religion sometimes. I try to tune that down as much as possible but it slips away every once in a while.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 24, 2013 05:42 PM |
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In some parts of the US, alcohol can't be sold on Sundays at all. As for abortion, some states are cracking on that as well.
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Eccentric Opinion
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This thread is pages long: 
