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| Thread: Alternative Upgrades Poll |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 25, 2012 12:33 AM |
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The problem of adding one creature per tier is that balancing becomes almost impossible, with so many lategame armies (4x4x2?).
That's why I'd rather go to "simply" 1 or 2 tier alternatives, especially with champion tier.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here, first you seem to argue against adding another creature per tier, and then you say you'd rather go with extra creatures per tier? Clearly I'm not understanding something?
Probably I haven't explain myselft clearly xD
I'm against adding one extra unit on ALL units, because it's veeeery hard to balance that. However, I wouldn't mind on adding one extra unit on champion tier, so you have some decission to make (and Champ/lvl 7 used to be the cooler units of each faction ^^)
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted July 25, 2012 01:05 AM |
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Copy-paste from another forum:
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I am one of the fans who don't like the upgrade system, at all, especially for HeroesVI because new features decrease micro-management a lot BUT we keep the upgrade rigidity there was in HeroesII, III and V. The fact is we (players) don't like to play with basic creatures: since upgraded are better so we want only play with them. That's a pain to return your basic creatures to a town to upgrade them later, so most of the time we don't buy basic creature (except few Cores if we need them to kill neutral armies). And anyway once you have built your town you don't recruit basic creatures at all, even the Cores. Thus at the end of the game 50% of the creatures become unused! That's why I think upgrades are not good for the game.
What I had suggested long time ago is something like that:
1) Instead of basic creature then upgraded creature, we could have 2 alternative creatures (~same Power) from the beginning, when we build a dwelling. It add more diversity and we keep 100% of the creatures usable during all the game.
2) The upgraded dwelling increase creature growth only.
Still, with the current system I voted for the "alternative upgrades" since it's either this or nothing.
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Demonge
Known Hero
more than meets the eyes
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posted July 25, 2012 08:52 AM |
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NO.
No matter how that will be done and how much time you'll spend on balance, there always will be one of the 2 upgrades overwhelming the other.
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Wait a second! I'm not big-boned, I'm just fat!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 25, 2012 08:59 AM |
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I am one of the fans who don't like the upgrade system, at all, especially for HeroesVI because new features decrease micro-management a lot BUT we keep the upgrade rigidity there was in HeroesII, III and V. The fact is we (players) don't like to play with basic creatures: since upgraded are better so we want only play with them. That's a pain to return your basic creatures to a town to upgrade them later, so most of the time we don't buy basic creature (except few Cores if we need them to kill neutral armies). And anyway once you have built your town you don't recruit basic creatures at all, even the Cores. Thus at the end of the game 50% of the creatures become unused! That's why I think upgrades are not good for the game.
What I had suggested long time ago is something like that:
1) Instead of basic creature then upgraded creature, we could have 2 alternative creatures (~same Power) from the beginning, when we build a dwelling. It add more diversity and we keep 100% of the creatures usable during all the game.
2) The upgraded dwelling increase creature growth only.
Again, this doesn't make sense to me at all. It doesn't matter if the two alternatives are available at start or only after upgrading, you'd still only be able to recruit on of them, so I don't see how this would make less of creature "waste". And also, I don't see alternatives as wasted, if they are balanced so that sometimes you'd chose one, other times the other.
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Still, with the current system I voted for the "alternative upgrades" since it's either this or nothing.
You know this, or is that just assumptions?
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What will happen now?
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted July 25, 2012 09:09 AM |
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I disagree with more people in this thread than not, and it seems that everyone else disagrees as well. They should put their focus into things we can all agree on.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 25, 2012 10:32 AM |
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Quote:
Copy-paste from another forum:
Quote:
I am one of the fans who don't like the upgrade system, at all, especially for HeroesVI because new features decrease micro-management a lot BUT we keep the upgrade rigidity there was in HeroesII, III and V. The fact is we (players) don't like to play with basic creatures: since upgraded are better so we want only play with them. That's a pain to return your basic creatures to a town to upgrade them later, so most of the time we don't buy basic creature (except few Cores if we need them to kill neutral armies). And anyway once you have built your town you don't recruit basic creatures at all, even the Cores. Thus at the end of the game 50% of the creatures become unused! That's why I think upgrades are not good for the game.
What I had suggested long time ago is something like that:
1) Instead of basic creature then upgraded creature, we could have 2 alternative creatures (~same Power) from the beginning, when we build a dwelling. It add more diversity and we keep 100% of the creatures usable during all the game.
2) The upgraded dwelling increase creature growth only.
Still, with the current system I voted for the "alternative upgrades" since it's either this or nothing.
As in the other forum, I disagree with the assessment for Heroes 6:
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For H6 I've changed my style here. For one thing, Elite upgrades don't pay - or rather, they pay only after you built Champion dwelling (which then is a basic creature as well).
In H6, this is the main logistics task - to chain your creatures to andd fro the town with the upgrade facility.
The reason why I don't mind playing with basic creatures is the fact that most of them are rather useful in basic form - that's different with past Homms. In H5, for example, you wouldn't want to play wit Skeletons or Imps or - Asha help us all - Goblins, and there are many examples for others, like the Elves and Archers of HoMM 2 or the Hell Hounds of H 3 - but in HoMM 6 I'm rather cool with the basic creatures.
Which is a good thing. A game should offer options, and a playable basic creature does that. If we simply had no upgrades for creatures like the Vampire, the game would be even better, yet.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 25, 2012 01:54 PM |
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I'm totally against alternative upgrades.
1. H5 alternate upgrades were a huge fail because there simply always was one upgrade that was stronger than the other. There was no choice, you always picked the strongest.
2. The more upgrades you add to the game, the more creature you won't be using 
By definition, if you upgrade a unit, you're eliminating the use for the basic version of the creature. Meaning that if the game offers 50 creatures, in the end you will only use 25 of them (the upgraded ones). If you now add an alternative upgrade, the game will offer you 75 creatures, but in the end, you will STILL only be using 25 of them (the upgrade of your choice).
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 25, 2012 02:20 PM |
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I doubt that the concept can be executed at all, given that Limbic don't seem to have the resources to develop something more than patches and frankly the poll seems way too "theoretic" to me.
Other than that - balanced alternative upgrades will be extremely difficult to create even by a Blizzard-sized dev. Even with the current 5 factions this means 35 more creatures and that's already ugly enough. I'd rather go for something like customisable upgrades, working in the following manner:
- static basic creature (the unupgraded one) with pre-defined stats and abilities;
- the upgraded creature inherits the abilities of the basic creature but its stats can be modified within certain limits, one at the expense of the other. For example - you can create a Crusher with more Attack but less Defense (or the other way around) and either of these stats can be changed manually between certain values (for example, the Attack can be modified between 5 and 12 points, affecting the Defense proportionally). Same applies to all stats;
- additionally, the upgraded creatures may have a "pool" of abilities in addition to its basic ability/abilities and can pick a limited number of them (depending on its level - Core, Elite, Champion).
The above is essentially the same as alternative upgrades but allows for more diversification and part of the balancing is passed directly to the players.
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted July 25, 2012 03:23 PM |
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Again, this doesn't make sense to me at all. It doesn't matter if the two alternatives are available at start or only after upgrading, you'd still only be able to recruit on of them, so I don't see how this would make less of creature "waste". And also, I don't see alternatives as wasted, if they are balanced so that sometimes you'd chose one, other times the other.
With the current system (HeroesVI) there is no alternative upgrade, I was speaking about that. When your town is completely built, 50% of the creatures become useless since you will never recruit them (the basics). With the system I suggest, you will probably recruit only one alternative in a given game, right, but both creatures are available and playable, contrary to basics/upgrades (so I disagree with Nelgirith). During the next game you could recruit the other alternative, and even in the same game you could recruit both from time to time (if your initial stack die, or if both alternatives give you smething interresting for your army, for exemple).
With the HeroesII, III, V and VI systems you must spend 2 days to recruit upgraded creatures (basic dwelling then upgraded dwelling). And since we don't like to play with basic creatures we must wait at least 2 weaks to be able to play with all upgraded creatures, and when you add town halls, fortifications, mage guilds etc it's clear you can't play with them before end of week 3 or 4. So you play always with the strongest (shooters, casters, fast creatures) and thus during the greater part of the game (often even the whole game) there are even more unused creatures.
That's a fact, when I'm playing HeroesVI I waste all my time playing with Cores only because Elites/Champions are not quickly accessible, especially during online games when you fight your opponent week 2 or 3. Seriously, playing always the same 2 or 3 Cores is not fun at all IMO since all the games are in fact the same.
With my suggestion you could have 14 fully playable creatures available after 7+ days instead of 7 playable creatures available after 14+ days.
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You know this, or is that just assumptions?
Assumptions, of course, I don't know the futur.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted July 25, 2012 04:17 PM |
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With the HeroesII, III, V and VI systems you must spend 2 days to recruit upgraded creatures (basic dwelling then upgraded dwelling). And since we don't like to play with basic creatures we must wait at least 2 weaks to be able to play with all upgraded creatures, and when you add town halls, fortifications, mage guilds etc it's clear you can't play with them before end of week 3 or 4. So you play always with the strongest (shooters, casters, fast creatures) and thus during the greater part of the game (often even the whole game) there are even more unused creatures.
That's a fact, when I'm playing HeroesVI I waste all my time playing with Cores only because Elites/Champions are not quickly accessible, especially during online games when you fight your opponent week 2 or 3. Seriously, playing always the same 2 or 3 Cores is not fun at all IMO since all the games are in fact the same.
!!!! I have an easy solution for you !!!!!
Play Duels... and you will never have to deal with this problem of "Deweloping your army" evet again.
Was that so hard?
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Kivo
Famous Hero
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posted July 25, 2012 04:28 PM |
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With the HeroesII, III, V and VI systems you must spend 2 days to recruit upgraded creatures (basic dwelling then upgraded dwelling). And since we don't like to play with basic creatures we must wait at least 2 weaks to be able to play with all upgraded creatures, and when you add town halls, fortifications, mage guilds etc it's clear you can't play with them before end of week 3 or 4. So you play always with the strongest (shooters, casters, fast creatures) and thus during the greater part of the game (often even the whole game) there are even more unused creatures.
That's a fact, when I'm playing HeroesVI I waste all my time playing with Cores only because Elites/Champions are not quickly accessible, especially during online games when you fight your opponent week 2 or 3. Seriously, playing always the same 2 or 3 Cores is not fun at all IMO since all the games are in fact the same.
I totally agree. The games for the first 30min are very boring because they are really similar. It often can make me just quit of boredom.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 25, 2012 04:28 PM |
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With my suggestion you could have 14 fully playable creatures available after 7+ days instead of 7 playable creatures available after 14+ days.
Well that would be absolutely horrible for gameplay in my oppinion. If you have your fully build army available after just 7 days, what are you going to do for the rest of the game? That's a matter of taste of course, but it would definitely ruin a lot of the game for me if you get the upgrades straight away. Part of the idea with havign upgrades is you have to decide when to use the time and resources to perform the building upgrade.
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2. The more upgrades you add to the game, the more creature you won't be using
By definition, if you upgrade a unit, you're eliminating the use for the basic version of the creature. Meaning that if the game offers 50 creatures, in the end you will only use 25 of them (the upgraded ones). If you now add an alternative upgrade, the game will offer you 75 creatures, but in the end, you will STILL only be using 25 of them (the upgrade of your choice).
I think it's a bit flat to say that just because you don't use the creature at a given time then it has no value to be in the game. When you play as Inferno, you don't use the creatures belonging to all the other factions, that doesn't make them irrelevant either.
As for the Alt Upgrades of H5, it is true that many of them were badly executed, but there were also many that were well done. Most of the Haven ones actually worked quite well in that you'd pick one or the other depending on the situation, sometimes even both of them (I would mix Inquisitors and Zealots for instance), whereas most of the Sylvan once were really horribly balanced (don't think I need to give examples of those). So I think some people makes it worse than it actually was, there were just a handful of really extreme examples where the "choice" was laughable.
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BlueLore
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 25, 2012 06:05 PM |
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I am against alternative upgrades.
On the one side I think that the lack of factions is the first thing that needs to be solved.
5 factions is quite low and if the expansions add only 1 faction,it would come down to 7 factions,which would be less than in hVtote
Another thing is that in the end it would mean,we're getting another version of roughly every creature.
Sure some of these could fullfill a new role,but in the end they will also cover their initial role to some extend(for example even though the marksman gains a different upgrade,he would still be your core shooter).
I would like it much more if they'd offered completely different creatures in a similar manner to h4.It doesn't have to be an alternative for every creature,but maybe just one for the champion of each faction(maybe the elite creatures too,but that may be too much).
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fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 25, 2012 06:31 PM |
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in heroes 2, some units didn't need to be upgraded.
for example, the zombi could be better (maybe) if you could have it in its upgraded form from the start. but to get titans, you obviously need to buy an upgrade building.
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted July 25, 2012 06:51 PM |
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Well that would be absolutely horrible for gameplay in my oppinion. If you have your fully build army available after just 7 days, what are you going to do for the rest of the game?
Maybe I will play with all my creatures, and not with Cores only?
You just need to build 7 dwellings instead of 14, but you still need to build your town hall, fortification, portals, market(s), special building etc. Anyway upgraded dwelling will still be there, they will increase the creature growth, thus the number of buildings won't change. You will always have something to do in your town, and you can capture/convert other towns too.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted July 27, 2012 07:24 PM |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 28, 2012 12:00 AM |
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Well that would be absolutely horrible for gameplay in my oppinion. If you have your fully build army available after just 7 days, what are you going to do for the rest of the game?
Maybe I will play with all my creatures, and not with Cores only?
You just need to build 7 dwellings instead of 14, but you still need to build your town hall, fortification, portals, market(s), special building etc. Anyway upgraded dwelling will still be there, they will increase the creature growth, thus the number of buildings won't change. You will always have something to do in your town, and you can capture/convert other towns too.
Personally, I'm never buying another Heroes game without creature upgrades. Heroes 4 was bad enough to make sure of that.
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GMnemonic
Hired Hero
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posted August 10, 2012 12:35 PM |
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Do you think they would be worth implementing in such a form or would you rather see the game's resources spent elsewhere, like more neutrals or maybe even an extra unit per tier?
That';s where my vote goes to after that alternatives ^^.
Both good imho. But I still long for the 3 missing factions the most.
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
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posted August 10, 2012 02:28 PM |
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Let them do whatever they want, in its present state the game is as good as dead anyway.
(If You ask me, at least a partial skill/spell system redesign would be far more welcome than a few reskins, even taking into account the woefully small number of units)
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