|
| Thread: Christianity and European history |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV |
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
posted June 21, 2013 04:54 AM |
|
|
|
Omnipotence itself is irrational. Check last two pages of religion thread, we carried it there.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 21, 2013 05:13 AM |
|
|
OK, but enough of that here.
Do you have anything to comment on the Protestant reformation?
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted June 21, 2013 05:32 AM |
|
|
|
Well, most people make the mistake of thinking the reformers were very open-minded just because the term comes from the word to protest but it was just the Catholic Church ( and mainly its taxes in reality) they were protesting, not bigotry itself. It is political struggle below the surface as usual. Protestants are not necessarily more open minded or humane than catholics. The end of the hegamonia of the church indirectly had a big effect on the Enlightenment but that was not intentional.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 21, 2013 05:34 AM |
|
|
Yeah, it was the Church's taxes and control that they really opposed, more than anything else. But at the same time they managed to set aside human tradition and proclaim sola scriptura. I'd say it was crucial to the future of Christianity.
Quote:
All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.
That meant no more listening to any priest and doing all he says because "he knows better", no more having to pay gold for "salvation" like the Roman Catholics had imposed.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted June 21, 2013 07:17 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Well, most people make the mistake of thinking the reformers were very open-minded just because the term comes from the word to protest but it was just the Catholic Church ( and mainly its taxes in reality) they were protesting, not bigotry itself. It is political struggle below the surface as usual. Protestants are not necessarily more open minded or humane than catholics. The end of the hegamonia of the church indirectly had a big effect on the Enlightenment but that was not intentional.
The reformers were seeking to REFORM (hence reformation) the Catholic church, to bring it into line with the Scripture. The CC would not change and thus the reformers "left" the CC. The sale of "indulgences" was the tipping point.
Of course Christianity teaches that male and female all all races are equal. Christianity's ideas are the basis of the West's ideas of human rights.
Quote:
Genesis 5:1-2(NIV)
1 This is the written account of Adam’s family line.
When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind”[a] when they were created.
Rom2: 11 (NIV)For God does not show favoritism.
Galatians 3:27-28(NIV)
27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted June 21, 2013 08:30 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Rather than calling my post "an epic load of nonsense" address the things you believe to be incorrect.
There's a minimum level of knoweldge required in order to lead any decent discussion. When you start with outright claims which differ little from "the Earth is flat", I see no point to correct you - you're simply missing the basics and I'm no high school teacher. Instead of re-reading the Bible for the 100th time, go to the nearest library and find some history books about the ancient world, the medieval one, the Renassaince and the Enlightenment (hint - they'd better not be written by a Christian apologist).
Quote:
Back to the topic at hand, I believe the Protestant reformation was not only needed but a change for the better. Far too often the Catholics and Orthodox put their traditions above the Scriptures.
Well, the Catholics also had their attempts to restore the original idea of the Christianity through certain brotherhoods, mystics leading ascetic lives, etc. Some of the most notable Catholic orders (for example the Franciscans) started exactly as an attempt to oppose the general trend in the Catholic world to use the power of the Church for earthly gains and to return to the spiritual aspects of the Christianity. In general though, the issue was with the (too) easy transformation of ideological power into political/material so just like the Roman church in general, most Catholic orders dropped their ideals (not explicitly of course) as soon as their influence grew big enough.
The Reformation managed to shake the power structure in the Catholic world and in this regard it played a big role in the subsequent development of Western Europe, that's true. From political point of view, the Pope was no longer some external authority which every Catholic state had to take into account when planning its own deeds well outside the spiritual realm and that certainly helped the secular power win its independance in the long run. As far as the Christianity itself is concerned, the Reformation fragmented its ideology quite a lot and the results are visible even nowadays.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 21, 2013 08:40 AM |
|
|
And the man is the head of the woman same as Christ is head of the church, they must both love one another, the church is the Bride of the Lamb of God.
CC and OC think that you should pray at wooden and graven images so that your prayer will "reach" God faster and that bones and remains of supposed "saints" can perform miracles. That's not what the Bible says. That's why I'm just a Christian and not an Orthodox despite being Romanian.
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted June 24, 2013 02:43 PM |
|
Edited by markkur at 14:46, 24 Jun 2013.
|
Since Henry VIII's already been mentioned I thought I'd comment on that <ahem> reformer. 
I'm a history-nut and one of the reasons is the look back into time to see an event, a single decision or some little slip that creates huge change or clearly alters the outcomes of later events.
JJ mentioned Simon Schama in another thread; he has an episode on "Whatever happened to Catholic England" and it's very good.
The reformation , the English church/civil war and the beheading of a King all sprang from one thing...Henry had to have a son and nothing would keep him from getting a baby boy.
Actually it was "because he was not interested in the reformation" that caused all the horror that followed. Henry had been named "defender of the faith" by this same Pope before he rejected the pope's decision that he had been married for 20 years. The King made his own way when the Pope did not give him what he wanted. Standing firm on a verse that says; "he who sleeps with his brother's wife shall be childless" is stretching the verse a whole lot, since the brother(Arthur) was DEAD and Henry already had a daughter!(Mary)
An interesting tidbit about the mayhem that followed; Henry of course stole everything of the RC-church in England, ("All hail the Holy head of the church!") no not that; I mean when Bloody Mary got to the throne and was able to reverse the evil-deeds of her Father and restore the stolen property to her beloved Church that she so defiantly resurrected after the actions of her little brother Edward? she returned nothing whatever of the original Catholic-properties. Ah, the sweet scent of the "true" piety. 
|
|
OldLich
Hired Hero
|
|
posted June 16, 2016 05:34 PM |
|
|
|
I did an extensive research in the forum search button and I managed to dig out this thread that I found.
|
|
|
|
