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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2014 03:27 PM |
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DoubleDeck said:
Back when games didn't have online patches one could rely on...so games had to be 100%. Aaah the 90's gaming was great! No patches, no console bulldust (making games "easy")...
goddamn right. for instance, fallout3 was a great game, but ****, the lagging and freezing; then it got worse with the add-ons. the gaming companies, console companies, and computer companies, and software companies desperately need to take the contentment of their target audience a WHOLE lot more seriously. as it stands now, it's mass-produced garbage, and prone to all kinds of errors. then you have the dip****s who put out a game that you can ONLY play online, or ONLY play multiplayer(i'm talking to you, killzone 2) with online. from there you have the bandwidth problem, for everyone and their grandma signing onto servers meant to support only so many users.
it's a crock. the companies of the world need to bring old-school quality back, and stop trying to make a ton of quick bucks. also, people need to stop purchasing this nonsense, until the douchebags at the helm get their **** straight.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2014 03:43 PM |
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People, your logic is faulty.
If it WAS garbage, no one would buy it, and if no one would buy it, they would go out of business - or start making stuff that is not garbage.
On the other hand, if it was garbage, but people would STILL pay for it, then it's the fault of the people buying crap, instead of flipping them the finger and read a book instead.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2014 03:49 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:57, 25 Jan 2014.
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JollyJoker said:
People, your logic is faulty.
If it WAS garbage, no one would buy it, and if no one would buy it, they would go out of business - or start making stuff that is not garbage.
On the other hand, if it was garbage, but people would STILL pay for it, then it's the fault of the people buying crap, instead of flipping them the finger and read a book instead.
But you bought it anyway, right? (I mean H6)
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2014 05:31 PM |
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I didn't need to. 
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2014 06:53 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 18:55, 25 Jan 2014.
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JollyJoker said:
People, your logic is faulty.
If it WAS garbage, no one would buy it, and if no one would buy it, they would go out of business - or start making stuff that is not garbage.
On the other hand, if it was garbage, but people would STILL pay for it, then it's the fault of the people buying crap, instead of flipping them the finger and read a book instead.
how exactly is my logic faulty? i blamed both the companies AND the people that buy the garbage. try reading the ENTIRE post you reply to, sparky. because, after all:
lol, found a funnier pic.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2014 11:54 PM |
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fred79 said:
JollyJoker said:
how exactly is my logic faulty? i blamed both the companies AND the people that buy the garbage. try reading the ENTIRE post you reply to, sparky. because, after all:
Oh? Where exactly did you blame the people who buy?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 26, 2014 09:43 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
fred79 said:
JollyJoker said:
how exactly is my logic faulty? i blamed both the companies AND the people that buy the garbage. try reading the ENTIRE post you reply to, sparky. because, after all:
Oh? Where exactly did you blame the people who buy?
Don't let it slide off topic.
You should tell us your idea about how the spell system should work, like what I was talking with SepSpring earlier. I'd really like to hear that.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 26, 2014 10:16 AM |
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I think that the HoMM VI situation has been a pretty bad move. Heroes Online is an even worse version of the same boring stuff with short durations and cooldowns for "abilities" that you can pick freely - boring.
HoMM V way of having semi-random guilds plus skills and perks to "work" with the spells, seems somewhat cool.
We also shouldn't disregard the HoMM IV way - main guild plus side guilds - nor the fact that in HoMM 3 not all spells were available for a town.
From a gaming perspectice, "Ashan Magic" with their seven elemental schools (actually, 6 elemental schools plus 1 Primal) is something of a dead end, because I don't see any good reason to limit these, with the exception of the somewhat silly light/dark antagonism; sure, Haven may not have access to Dark, but the rest?
We've also been told about "Void Magic" which would be something on par with Primal - non-elemental magic, that might be available only to Dungeon, Necro, Academy and Inferno, although a Void Faction would be nice.
Anyway, with so many different spell schools, if this order of things is to be kept I'd go for a somewhat revised HoMM-IV-system: give every town a main guild and two side guilds, main guild being fixed, except for Academy, plus two somewhat pickable side guilds. Spells would come randomly, but I expect there wouldn't be that many in each school anyway.
It is also possible to assign probabilities for each town and each spell - the HoMM 3 way. You can simply make it via the "lot bowl" system: For every spell on each level there's a certain number of lots in the bowl for each town, and when you build a guild level a number of lots is drawn. 4 Mage Guild Levels are enough - reduces the amount of spells you can actually learn without a skill. I'd go for more spells per level, though: 6/5/4/3 or something like that.
I was also tampering with the idea to sort magic differently:
a) Elemental Magic (spells of the 6 elements; cost Mana)
b) Prime/Void Magic (cost Mana)
c) Rune Magic (HoMM 5 way, cost: Ressources)
d) Blood Magic (you have to sacrifice your own creatures; in other words, it cost lifes )
There wouldn't be War Cries anymore - those would merge into c and d
For all of those 4 there were separate buildings with 4 levels in a and 3 in all others; not all towns had all buildings, obviously: Blood Magic would be pretty heavy. Necro would be massive on a and b (d) is not possible, since they have no living creatures; Inferno would be massive in b and d and so on. Orcs had a specialization in a) Earth and Air plus d); Dungeon has everything except Rune Magic and so on.
Won't happen, though.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 26, 2014 03:20 PM |
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I also think a revised H4 system would be the best for H7. A main guild with fixed Magic School (Light for Haven, Dark for Dungeon, and so on) and then 2 side guilds per town, but being able to choose from several options (back to Haven case: Fire, Earth, Water, Air or Prime. No Dark) It's a good set up, giving some freedom to the player while at the same time giving some more replayability (Something that the game REALLY needs).
H3 system was okay, but not on the same level as the H4 revised one. And H5 was silly, I mean, every town was reduced to 2 magic shools, and there were the awkard cases of Dirael (starts with Summon Magic when Sylvann town is aligned to Light/Destructive) or Lethos (starts with Dark Magic when Dungeon town is aligned to Dark/Destructive).
If Void Magic and Rune Magic happen, then the number of schools starts to get very silly imo....that would be 9 schools, 10 if you add Blood Magic lol. And let's not enter in the number of spells each school should have, jeeez.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 26, 2014 03:37 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:50, 26 Jan 2014.
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I'd like to see Magic Guilds making a comeback in H7, but in a different way than they were in H5.
I'd like a Magic Guild with 5 levels, corresponding to 5 levels of Mastery in the respective schools (Basic -> Advanced -> Expert -> Master -> Grandmaster). That means that if your hero doesn't have Basic in any magic school, he won't be able to learn not even lvl 1 spells, I think this simply makes sense.
Now, what should the Magic Guild be all about? I think that having a system like "build your level and get some spells" is kinda static and somewhat boring. We should have something much more fun and exciting! After all, even the game has the word "Magic" in it's name, so this should be a very exciting and well developed part to be explored. So here are some of my ideas that would make things a bit more interesting:
Spell Trade
I think the H3 system of giving 5/4/3/2/1 spells per level was the best one, so I'd like to see that. BUT, I'd like to have more slots on each spell level than the number of spells you get when building it, like 7/6/5/4/3. There would be 2 empty slots per level and you can use these to buy spells from the Spell Market (which is an additional mechanic that comes with building the Mage Guild, not a different building - can be a different building though, but I don't see the point). This Spell Market would be the center where you can buy/sell or exchange spells with gold/resources or even other spells that you currently own.
So say you built Magic Guild lvl 1 and you didn't get Bless, or Haste. You then go to the Spell Market (should be an icon in the Magic Guild) and see if you can find it there. This week the only lvl 1 spell available there is Curse for 5 of each rare resource (mercury, sulf, crystals and gems). Only one spell is available for each level at a time, higher spells should change after a longer period, like lvl 1 and 2 after 1 week, lvl 3 and 4 after 2 weeks and lvl 5 after 3 weeks (prices should also change, sometimes costing gold, sometimes resources or even both) - this would be like trading with the game or how you call it... But, each Player has his own spells slots in the Spell Market near his banner, which other Players can see (I was thinking something like 3, which unlock progressively, like first slot at Magic Guild lvl 1, second at 3 and third at 5), and you see that Player X sells Bless for 5000 gold and 10 wood and 10 ore OR exchanges for spell Slow, which you have (so you can trade for resources with both the game and the AI, or exchange for another spell but with AI only). In this way you hit 2 birds with 1 stone: You don't have to worry about not getting the spells you want since you can buy a limited number from the Spell Market; AND you liven up things a bit when it comes to economy since you can now buy/sell/exchange spells with the game and even with other players.
So long story short: You get 5/4/3/2/1 spells just by building the Magic Guilds, and you have +2 extra slots per level to get any other spells you want from the Spell Market, being limited only by the number of spells you can purchase AND the offers on the market. In this way the game gets another dimension in which you now have to be actively implicated into if you want to get the most out of your kingdom's Magic.
Spell Combining
This is what always intrigued me, and SepSpring confirmed to me that others think likewise. What if you could combine spells to get new and more powerful ones? This surely would have to be something that only a good Hero could do (harder for Might heroes but not impossible and easier for Magic) However, this should require certain skills, the skills in the certain magic schools that you're trying to combine for starters. SepSpring brought his idea of having additional Skills resulting from the combining of others, like "Magic of the Water" + "Magic of the Wind" skills to open the possibility of acquiring the skill "Magic of the Cold" (see his work here)
I personally think that it's a good idea, because it opens a new world for picking perks to improve the spells which result after a combination. But this would be combining the schools and then taking the spells, rather than combining the spells directly. What if you could just combine the spells without having additional magic schools? I think this would be a more viable option and would make more sense, though we'd still have to think of how to get some perks to improve the new spells as well (in which case there is a point in having additional magic schools). So this is worth thinking about.
Also, note that this is one way to acquire spells without learning them from the Magic Guild. So you cannot trade these on the Spell Market (since they're not in the Magic Guild). These should only be available to the hero that meets the requirements for combining spells.
Research
This is a concept that I thought about ever since Elvin posted the DoC cards for Academy. I don't know if this should be specific only to Wizards (he also mentioned spell combining there, and that Ubi is considering it), but there should certainly be something in regards to magic that only Academy should have. My thoughts were that spell combining should be universal, while only research specific to Academy.
In my opinion, Research should also be a mechanic related to the Magic Guild, one that only Wizards can access in the Academy town. This should be directly influenced by the wizard's Wisdom primary skill. It could be based on levels, like research lvl 1 at 10 wisdom, 2 at 20 wisdom and 3 at 30. Or it could be something that accumulates until a cap is reached and the research is completed, like Research needs 100 points of Wisdom and your hero has 20, so he will have to spend 5 days researching in the Academy (only that this would be terrible for the gameplay). However, what this Research should actually give I'm still unsure. Empower some spells? Combine more than 2? Or research some spell unachievable in any other way? I say no, not these, something much more interesting and fun! Something like...
What if Research would give the Wizard the means of selecting specific spells that he owns (even combined spells) to cast them spontaneously on the battleground? Wisdom would determine the spell level (maybe lvl 1 spell needing 5 base Wisdom, 2 needing 10, 3-15, 4-20 and 5-25) and the chance of it happening (beneficial on own troops, detrimental on enemy troops). And It doesn't have to be the same spell each time, the system could work in some sort of controlled random way.
For instance, with 10 wisdom you unlock lvl 1 Research (let's go with this system) and that means you get:
- 3x lvl 1 spell slots, 2x lvl 2 spell slots, 1x lvl 3. Then at 20 wisdom you have lvl 2 Research:
- 4x lvl 1, 3x lvl 2, 2x lvl 3 and 1x lvl 4. So basicly +1 slot 'till level 4 spells. and at 30 wisdom, lvl 3 Research:
- 5x lvl 1, 4x lvl 2, 3x lvl 3, 2x lvl 4 and 1x lvl 5. +1 slots everywhere.
Then, suppose you have 30 base Wisdom and unlock the lvl 3 Research. And you select from your spellbook the following lvl 1 spells: Slow, Haste, Bless, Weakness, Eldritch Arrow. When entering combat, your hero will have a 30% chance of casting any of these spells after a move has been performed. And the effects are full, like if you have Sorcery, your hero's turn will come faster when it triggers. Or if you have the appropriate mastery/perks in that school the spell will be better, like Mass Haste, Mass Slow, etc. Same goes with other lvl spells, only the chance is much smaller, and only one spell may be cast (the highest in lvl prefered).
This is just an idea, I don't know if it necessarily has to do with what the word "Research" insinuates, it's just what I'd like to see.
Scroll Writing
There should be an option in the Magic Guild to create Scroll Items with the spells that can be found there (or maybe even in another hero's spellbook). These scrolls would be especially useful to heroes that don't have the requirements to learn a spell, be it because of insufficient mastery level or because he doesn't even have the skill. In this way even if you have a might hero with which you cannot afford to take the Dark Magic skill, for example, you could still get the spells in that magic school. And it doesn't have to be only one spell, you could take more, like maybe 3 lvl 1 spells on the same scroll. However these scrolls should cost resources to make, scaling accordingly to the number of spells on the scroll as well as their level. Enlightenment should be the skill focusing on this mechanic, each mastery level giving the hero the possibility of writing down spells of higher level on scrolls (Basic - level 1 spells, Advanced - lvl 2... Grandmaster - level 5). Also a good perk would be "Scribe", giving the hero the ability to create more powerful scrolls, which would be the counterpart of mastery levels. But that shouldn't go overboard, there should be a balance between how powerful a scroll can be made and the spell's level, so that you could have expert level Slow, but only Basic level Implosion. Also, these scrolls should occupy backpack slots, no need to put them anywhere else. And to make things even more interesting, they should be consumable. Livening up the economy again.
This would have some shortcomings, 5 of which are more evident:
1. The power of these spells would be lower than if you had the appropriate mastery;
2. Might heroes would benefit less than Magic heroes because of low Spellpower and Wisdom;
3. Limited number of spells on a scroll as well as limited number of casts per scroll (consumable);
4. Spells cannot benefit from perks;
5. Scrolls cost resources to make, and the hero must have the Enlightenment skill.
So these are my ideas on what I'd like the Magic system of H7 to bring. What do you guys think? If there are any thoughts on this please write them point by point, so it'll be easier to discuss them that way
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 26, 2014 04:07 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
If Void Magic and Rune Magic happen, then the number of schools starts to get very silly imo....that would be 9 schools, 10 if you add Blood Magic lol. And let's not enter in the number of spells each school should have, jeeez.
No, there would be just FOUR "schools": Elemental, Prime/Void, Runic and Blood. Elemental Magic would have a couple of Perks, of course, making spells of a certain element stronger.
The advantage would be that you wouldn't need a full spell set-up for each element - that's somewhat silly anyway, because it will end up with a lot of redundant stuff that's basically the same thing with a different name.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 26, 2014 04:15 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Storm-Giant said:
If Void Magic and Rune Magic happen, then the number of schools starts to get very silly imo....that would be 9 schools, 10 if you add Blood Magic lol. And let's not enter in the number of spells each school should have, jeeez.
No, there would be just FOUR "schools": Elemental, Prime/Void, Runic and Blood. Elemental Magic would have a couple of Perks, of course, making spells of a certain element stronger.
The advantage would be that you wouldn't need a full spell set-up for each element - that's somewhat silly anyway, because it will end up with a lot of redundant stuff that's basically the same thing with a different name.
Ah, that's another story. And definitely would avoid spells redundacy 
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 27, 2014 08:07 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 08:08, 27 Jan 2014.
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In terms of schools, I'd say move back the way Heroes 5 was going, spells grouped (basically) by target, rather than by some random 'elemental' concept. Also, while I can see the advantage of Runic Magic as a separate skill, I can see its disadvantages too, so what about, instead of a separate school of magic, Runic Magic gives you the ability to pay for all spells with resources instead of spell points if you so choose?
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted January 27, 2014 10:00 AM |
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Quote:
In terms of schools, I'd say move back the way Heroes 5 was going, spells grouped (basically) by target, rather than by some random 'elemental' concept.
Can't agree. I enjoy the elemental concept, but its realization is extremely poor. For example, access to the school of water magic can be given to several factions, but spells should be divided into common and unique ones. I mean, invoking tsunami is quite essential for Sanctuary wizards, but unsuitable for Sylvan magicians, for instance. IMO, of course.
Quote:
What if you could just combine the spells without having additional magic schools?
That's what I used to write about. The game can have homo- (one element) and heterogeneous (several elements) spells. While homogeneous ones should become available in the guilds after learning the elemental school they're based on, heterogeneous spells should stay locked in the guild until all the elemental schools which they consist of are learned by the hero. For example, to get the "Poison Cloud" spell the hero will have to study the "Air Magic II", "Earth Magic II" and "Water Magic I" skills. That's it.
Quote:
I mean, the getting level but have to pay to learn skills part may be a bit too much.
I think the concepts of academies / guilds / universities, study fees and combined skills (both might and magic ones) can make the educational system of the game more complex and interesting.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 27, 2014 11:39 AM |
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Another thought, variable cost - variable power spells. Take, just for a random example, 'Eldritch Arrow' from H5. Now say I have Basic Destructive. That gives, for a power of 5, a damage of 96, at a cost of 4 spell points. But what if I don't have 4 SP left, what if I only have 3? Could I not spend my last 3 SP on a Arrow of 72 damage? Altenatively, if I was prepared to pay the price, what's to stop me pumping out an Arrow of over 200 damage?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2014 01:33 PM |
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SepSpring said:
I think the concepts of academies / guilds / universities, study fees and combined skills (both might and magic ones) can make the educational system of the game more complex and interesting.
I agree, it would be very interesting, and it would resemble real life more close. Knowledge in a skill doesn't pop-up in a hero's brain like snap! One moment you don't know anything, the next you know Water Magic - stupid. Knowledge in something comes either from: experience (you could learn warfare skills like attack and defence from battles) or learning from someone else, in which case "academies / guilds / universities, study fees" make a ton of sense! BUT, there should still be some immediate effect after your hero gets a level, and I don't think an empty slot where you may learn a skill will suffice. So, what do you think about that?
And come on, I wasted 5 hours to put that text above in perfect shape and no1's bothering to address it. If that's how it is then I'm not gonna bother anymore, and even ignore whatever you guys have to say myself from now on.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 27, 2014 02:56 PM |
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One of the things that irked me about the Magic in Heroes V and VI was that it combined elemental magic with religious magic. Elemental Magic schools are obviously based on the four elements, Earth, Fire, Water and Air. Religious Magic schools are Light and Dark Magic. I'd wish that the game differentiated between them more distinctly, placing the various towns more strongly in one of these two. The religious magic schools should contain religious elements, like being based on faith and such, while the elemental schools are more based on science.
As such, a Haven town may be a bastion for Light Magic and require Churches or Cathedrals and such to acquire Light spells. In addition, it may have research facilities, which can research Elemental Magic, though the attainable levels are not nearly as high as that of Light Magic. In contrast, Academy can reach top level in all Elemental Magic schools but have no native access whatsoever to religious magic. A town such as Stronghold is strong in Earth and Air magic (Mother Earth and Father Sky, after all), but not be as strong in any other magic, whether it's elemental or religious in nature. Inferno may reach the top levels of Fire Magic (which is elemental) as well as Dark Magic (which is religious), but nothing else.
As for the Magic system itself, I've never really liked the cherry-picking nature of Heroes VI. On the other hand, the locked random mechanism of Heroes III isn't the best either. In the latter one, the static number of available spell slots at each tier of magic also felt artificial. Considering that towns apparently have some sort of communication (even when strictly separate in different parts of the map!) because you can instantly spend the resources that your kingdom has collected, in any of them, regardless of where they were obtained, they should also be able to exchange spell information.
As such, I would suggest the following system:
- For each town type, specific Magic schools are set, based on that town type;
- For every higher spell tier, the player needs to build an additional tier of the respective Magic school (the classical Magic Guild for elemental spells, or a Church or similar for religious spells);
- For every Magic school, the town has a maximum limitation (which may be zero, which simply means that particular magic can't be learned there);
- Each spell for a given tier is made available through research (provided the spell tier is present within a town in the kingdom and whether or not the spell is restricted on the map);
- Researching spells costs resources: simple and low level spells would only require some gold, while higher level spells also cost other resources;
- Spell research becomes more costly depending on the number of spells of that tier and magic school already researched and available within the kindom, and cheaper the more structures the player has available of the proper tier across the towns of his kingdom (akin to how markets work);
- Only one spell can be researched within the kingdom at a time;
- Once research is completed, one random spell of the researched magic school and tier is provided to the pool of magic spells available within the player's kingdom;
- Once all spells available for research within a given magic school and tier have been researched, no further research in that magic school and tier is possible (other magic schools and/or tiers are still available for research, when applicable);
- Spell research time may also be a resource, in that higher tier spells take longer to research, but this time is reduced with more magic schools of the proper tier;
- Spell research is performed within a specific magic school (and not on the more generic distinction of "elemental" or "religious");
- a Hero with the proper Secondary Skill may be able to influence the research costs and time, provided the hero is in town when research begins (which would provide an alternative implementation for Secondary Skills like Learning and Scholar);
- a Hero learns all available spells within the kingdom up to and including the magic schools and tiers present in the town he visits, provided he has the personal Magic school skills to do so;
- Spell scrolls and spell books can provide targeted research at reduced material and time cost for the spell(s) contained on it, provided the proper magic school and tier are present in the town where the hero, who holds the scroll or book, is located;
- Alternative means should be available for spells which may be otherwise restricted (like Magic Shrines, Spellbooks, etc...);
This way, a player has an incentive to keep upgrading Magic schools across the kingdom, yet is able to research all spells available on the map given enough time and resources (excluding restricted spells).
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2014 03:29 PM |
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Your division is wrong. There is no such thing as religious magic, all 6 are elemental, as the magic comes from Ashas 6 children.
The siblings Asha and Urgash are responsible for PRIME Magic (which COULD be further divided into Order and Chaos Magic); plus we have a hint of VOID Magic which would be another kind of PRIME or PRIMAL Magic.
That said, there is no reason for most towns to not being able to learn each and any of those kinds of magic, with a couple of exceptions:
a) Stronghold; they don't believe in the Dragon Gods, but instead in Father Sky and Mother Earth, so this might allow them Earth and Air spells only;
b) The Light/Dark antagonism; the ANTAGONISM has more or less religious reasons. Malassa thwarted Elrath who wanted to destroy the Demons completely, but Malassa saw that would unravel everything. So Elrath felt betrayed by Malassa who has now a bad reputation because of that.
That is the only reason why a town wouldn't be able to learn Light or Dark, and the only thing I see here is Dungeon sans Light and Haven sans Dark.
That Demons are hurt by Light Magic ... well; I don't find that strictly logical; same thing with Undead, but anyway.
c) Prime Magic is something else; Necro and Academy are obviously able to dabble with it - but Inferno should be able to as well. If Demons are able to wield ANY elemental magic, there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to wield them all. Otherwise, this might be hard to learn stuff as well, but that's it.
Bottom line is this: while it would make sense, especially with so many schools, to somewhat limit access of towns to say, 4 of the schools, such a limitation would simply be silly, lorewise. Why, for Asha's sake, would, say, the Elves be unable to wield Fire Magic? Because they fear the casters may burn the trees? That's what Water Magic is there for, though, to check possible damage - after all, they will burn wood for heat and light anyway, so fear of fire would be foolish.
Another downside of separate elemental schools is the fact, that in such a case every school must have a certain number of spells. Think HoMM 4 - 5 schools of Magic with I don't know how many spells, but a ton of it and a lot of redundancies. Likewise, if all towns were limited to a low number of schools, you'd have to make sure that each spell selection was "balanced" against each other, which is somewhat awkward and clumsy.
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted January 27, 2014 03:32 PM |
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I’ve followed you discussion about magic from a distance and you have some good points, while some think differently about some things.
JJ, good concept! If there would be void magic it should be linked to prime. But I see good reasons to limit the number of magic schools a faction may use.
Storm-Giant, I agree that mage guilds are necessary and thatthere hasn’t been a perfect magic system before, but I think there should be fewer magic schools per faction. While you say a haven hero should have different magic every game, I prefer to play another faction to use different magic.
Stevie, you suggestions are very nice:
1. I didn’t think I would like spell trading but it is very much better than the H6 way where you get everything without effort.
2. Spell combining is a very good idea in theory however it could be too complex, but it could work well with a mage guild working like the H5 skill wheel.
3. Research could be a nice Academy special, yes!
4. Scroll writing could become a bit over powered in the late game (I don’t like how mentoring could give cheap Armageddon to everyone for example) but perhaps your cost system is way to solve this.
I took part in a discussion about the perfect magic system with SepSpring, Elvin and Maurice on the 2nd page in the Skill System Redesign Thread. Here’s a summary of the central ideas in my ideal system:
Spells and activated abilities
Spells should return to the mage guild while war cries and activated abilities like exruciating strike, divine guidance, counterspell, meditation, taunt and rush! could be spread out over a skillwheel.
How the typical heroes would look like:
Might: Lots of passive and some activated abilities (chosen as skills), some much needed mass spells.
Magic: Many powerful single target and mass spells, the necessary passive abilities, and a few activated abilities like meditation or counterspell (chosen as skills).
When leveling up you the hero uses several ability points. Magic skills are cheaper for magic heroes, and might skills are cheaper for might heroes.
Spells and Mage Guilds
There are 3-4 levels of magic: none, basic, advanced and expert. To learn spells the hero must have the right magic skill at the right level (just like in H5).
Guilds offer a semi-random selection of spells depending on your faction and reputation:
- Each faction has access to Prime magic and 3 elemental schools. Every faction focus on 2 of the schools.
- The reputation is either blood, tears or neutral. Every school has the same number of spells of each reputation.
On every level the guild offers 3 spells: 1 spell from each of the 2 focus magic schools and1 spell from one of the other schools the faction have access to. You must choose the guild’s reputation, and 2 of the 3 spells per level will be of the selected reputation (blood or tears).
Distribution of Magic Schools
A big part in the lack of diversity in H6 is that all factions have access to (almost) all magic the player could want. It’s a balance problem that sanctuary or haven can get blind, petrify, time sasis, light & earth elementals. It’s also a strange mix of spells put together from a weird mix of sources, especially for nagas who live under water.
To get better diversity and also some limits on what can be done with magic every faction should have only 4 of the 7 seven schools.
Everybody except orcs get prime magic. They also get:
Haven
Focus on light and air from their current and previous dragon. Also gets fire because it also gives light.
Inferno
Dark, fire, earth for the evil faction living in the dark, burning planet core. Focus on prime (Urgash) and fire (destruction).
Necropolis
Dark ‘cause they’re stereotypically evil, and the bodies they control are made of earth and water. Focus on prime (Asha) and dark (gives control).
Sanctuary
Water of course, light because they are stereotypically good, and air which is another weather element (and fire and earth are opposed to water). Focus on water and air as in H6.
Stronghold
Focus on air and earth. Also gets light and dark to accentuate their mix of good and evil. No prime.
Dungeon
Focus on dark (of course) and earth (underground+former dragon). Also gets water, since it’s cold and wet underground.
Sylvan
Forests grow when they get earth, water and light. Focus on earth (their dragon) and light (elves are stereotypically good and heal nature).
Fortress
The dwarves focus on fire and earth, mining and forging. They also get light because they are stereotypically good, and fire gives light.
Academy
Access to all schools, focus prime (Sar-Elam, 7th dragon) and light because they are stereotypically good and opposed to dark Necropolis. Have special magic buildings etc.
I think this system gives good diversity and each faction has a distinct identity. No factions focus on the same two magic schools. I think only Necro and Dungeon have the same schools but they focus on different schools, which could be further accentuated by giving Necro and Dungeon magic heroes reputation abilities that focus on Time (N) and Mind (D).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2014 05:29 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:23, 27 Jan 2014.
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Thanks for appreciating!
In regards to Dungeon's magic schools, I think that fire would be better instead of water, because of their destructive nature and coquetting with demons in lore 'n stuff.
Also I think that, overall, the idea of assigning so many magic schools is stretchy to say the least. Like, 4 to me seems way too much, and why a fixed number for everyone? There are certain races that don't fit this number, like orcs, wizards and fortress. You should have one or two set in stone for each race, because of lore and stuff, and the rest of them be random.
Haven: Light and Air, rest random;
Inferno: Prime (if we take notice of JJ's lessons on lore) and Fire, rest random;
Necropolist: Prime, Dark...
Sanctuary: Water, Earth...
Stronghold: Air, Earth only!
Dungeon: Dark, Fire...
Sylvan: Light, Water...
Fortress: Fire, Earth... (runes are something else)
Academy: Prime and rest random;
Or do you want a system like H5, where each race has access to certain schools and that's it? Why can't a Haven Cleric cast prime or dark spells? Or why can't Sylvan cast fire or air? I don't get it... if they have the skills and mastery, why not?
Certain skills should definitely be found in the Magic Guild when you play a race, but let's not make that to the exclusion of everything else. Like, when I build Magic Guild lvl 1 in a Haven town from the 5 spells that I get, the first one should be light and the second one air, but the rest should be random.
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