Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Spell Caster Damage Formula?
Thread: Spell Caster Damage Formula?
EvilLoynis
EvilLoynis


Famous Hero
The Dark Shadow
posted October 15, 2013 04:45 AM

Spell Caster Damage Formula?

 What is the spell damage formula for creatures when you start having stacks of more than 1?

 I mean I read in another thread that Mages in single stacks deal 36 damage with Fist spell but that if you had say 10 of them you would NOT get 360 Damage.

 Also I would like to know if a creatures "Spell Power" or damage is increased if the unit is in it's upgraded version when they use the same spell.  For example Mage > ArcMages or Pit Fiend > Pit Lord.

 I am really starting to hate this game sadly with all it's glitches and with them apparently not going back and "updating" the original with certain fixes they did make like the skill wheels.
____________

"I am both selfish and instictive.  I value nature and the world around me as means to an end as well as an end in itself; at best I ... too long to display...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Undead_king_
Undead_king_


Hired Hero
posted October 15, 2013 08:21 AM
Edited by Undead_king_ at 08:23, 15 Oct 2013.

It all depends on what mastery they have their spells...


For example Pit lords and Fiends cast Fireball with Basic Mastery

Meaning the formula is 14 + 14x Spellpower, now here is the tricky part, 10 pit lords deals 224 damage, so my primitive foruma is  is 14 + 14x Number of Creatures + 70 , at least that's how explain it to myself im sure it's probably wrong


Archmages cast it with Advanced mastery meaning 17 + 17x Spellpower

BUT for some Reason 9 Archmagis deal 153 damage with Fireball, meaning they are more simple, 17x number of mages, in this case 17x9=153,i migth be wrong here too
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 15, 2013 10:02 AM

You'll find the explanations in the Tribes of the East Folder -> Fan Documents -> Game Manual, Page 303ff.

Creatures cast spells using the same formulas than the Heroes. For example, Mages use the Fist of Wrath spell with Basic Mastery, while Archmages have Advanced Mastery. This spell does 30+6xPower damage with Basic Mastery and 40+8*Power with Advanced Mastery.
Now, what POWER value does a stack have, and here, obviously not every single one creature has 1 Power. Instead, for Power the following formula is used:

Spell_Power = 21 * LOG10[ 10 + 10*Stack_size/Weekly_Growth ] 22

This number is then rounded down, lowest value being one. (The long factor within the brackets is rounded down as well).
Mages having a weekly growth of 5, for 10 Mages you get:

21 * LOG10[10 + 20] - 22

Log10 of 30 is a bit less than 1.5, so the result should be 9.

For 45 Mages the spell power value is 20.

The effect of this is that small stacks will nearly do full damage, while big stacks won't. Another obvious thing is, that splitting awards you with additional base damage via Mana multiplying. If you hire your first 5 Mages, as a single stack they can do 30+ 6x5 = 60 damage twice, since they have 10 Mana for 2 castings, for a total Fist damage of 120.
Splitting them into 5 stacks of 1 Mage each will give you TEN castings of 36 damage each in just two combat rounds, TRIPLING the actual damage, and making those 5 Mages rather powerful in creeping (albeit vulnerable as well, of course).

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
EvilLoynis
EvilLoynis


Famous Hero
The Dark Shadow
posted October 15, 2013 12:01 PM

Damn this is giving me such a irritation headache.

 Can someone please give me a logical reason for what they have done here?  Right now my mind can give me no logical reason and is just seeing this as a way to piss me off with this game even more.

____________

"I am both selfish and instictive.  I value nature and the world around me as means to an end as well as an end in itself; at best I ... too long to display...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 15, 2013 01:45 PM

They wanted the spell casting units to make a difference in smaller numbers, when you still have room in your army to split and armies are relatively small and used for creeping, but they did not want them to dominate the big battles hero vs. hero when the high-level creatures are in play.

I mean consider what would happen, if each unit had power 1 and this would simply add up: a town with Castle will produce 10 Archmages each week, in that case with a Fireball Power of 154 damage. hitting 3 targets isn't so difficult, which would give them a onetime first strike capability of 462 points of damage per production week.
Compare that with what your weekly production of level 7 creatures does.

So that was their solution, then: IN THE BEGINNING, in low numbers, these units are quite able to make a difference and put out a vast number of damage for a very short duration, surpassing even the hero.
Laterm though, their RELATIVE damage will drop. For example 100 Arch Mages, instead of doing the linear 1414 Fireball damage, the damage will only be 378, little more than a quarter, making the attack probably only just as good as their normal shot and maybe even worse, however, it can also be used when adjacent to an enemy unit (as opposed to a shooting attack).

So the bottom line is, that the main idea behind this is pretty sound

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted October 15, 2013 01:47 PM

I also think it was a very stupid decision. Their normal damage has a linear increase but the spells log?? Cmon
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 15, 2013 03:08 PM

in heroes 4, an ice bolt did 40 damage + 4 x levels x (1 + magic mastery) but when genies or water elemental used it, it was simply 18 damage per unit. which was quite high, but in the end game, might units with tactics skills would become stronger.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
EvilLoynis
EvilLoynis


Famous Hero
The Dark Shadow
posted October 17, 2013 01:17 AM

 It's ridiculous the kind of math you have to do to find out what should be a simple damage output.

 Can someone just fill in the blanks for me cause I am not sure how to do that math right now?  Appreciate it a lot if you could.

# Mages - Spell Power - Damage from Fist

1 - 1 - 36
5 - ? - ?
10 - ? - ?
15 - ? - ?
20 - ? - ?
25 - ? - ?
30 - ? - ?
35 - ? - ?
40 - ? - ?
50 - ? - ?


Oh also if you could kind of give me an idea of any of the other casters damage it would be great.
____________

"I am both selfish and instictive.  I value nature and the world around me as means to an end as well as an end in itself; at best I ... too long to display...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 17, 2013 02:10 AM

better to check the manual, it already has what you ask for.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
EvilLoynis
EvilLoynis


Famous Hero
The Dark Shadow
posted October 18, 2013 08:50 AM

Fauch said:
better to check the manual, it already has what you ask for.


 Thanks finally found the right manual.  Was looking in wrong folder.

Druids optimal stack size seems to be 4 at which they get 5 spell power.  After this it goes up by 1 power per until 8 (9 power) at which it starts slowing down. 50 only have a spell power of 2.

Pit Fiends/Lords seem to be best put in stacks of 1-4.  Spell power for them goes 2-5-7-9 and after this each only adds another 1 for a bit.  So 2 giving 5 power seems optimal until you have to cut back due to space issues.(Shadow Woman also share this power progress however they don't have direct damage spells so you only get more duration on buff/debuffs). 50 only have a spell power of 28.

Mages increase 1 power each till you have 6 in a stack.  50 mages only  have a spell power of 20.


 Well this confirms my belief that this game is just trying to give me a headache.  It does not actually want you to play it as without fans cracking the formula it would be sooooo tedious gathering this info.
____________

"I am both selfish and instictive.  I value nature and the world around me as means to an end as well as an end in itself; at best I ... too long to display...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted October 18, 2013 02:01 PM

EvilLoynis said:
Well this confirms my belief that this game is just trying to give me a headache.  It does not actually want you to play it as without fans cracking the formula it would be sooooo tedious gathering this info.

I know it's annoying...but what are you playing, campaigns? some maps? I don't think you need to break your head so much with this, just enjoy the game
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted October 19, 2013 02:40 AM
Edited by SKPRIMUS at 02:56, 19 Oct 2013.

@EvilLoynis, the fan manual in the game folder in TotE is only version 3.0.

I've found that the fan manual version 3.1 is now available from the heroes-fr.com website again! (for some reason that website redesign lost it before!)
http://www.heroes-fr.com/pages_en/fan_manuals.php
Go to that webpage, then To download, right-click on the appropriate link & save link as.

TotE 3.1 neutral creeps spells only do one-third of calculated damage which is a bit better.
Yes I agree the creature spell damage design could have been better, but it's also partly due to the way H5 damage spells with 1 spellpower are calculated in the game! (unless one designs creature damage spells so that it doesn't follow the damage calculation used by heroes?)

All it really means is split up your spell casters during creeping & those water elementals are way stronger than they should be.

Also, imo, the spell dmg by water elementals in H4 was more way out of wack.
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TheMeInTeam
TheMeInTeam

Tavern Dweller
posted October 25, 2013 10:54 PM
Edited by TheMeInTeam at 22:55, 25 Oct 2013.

If you don't want to do too much calculation tedium, simply "split into as many stacks as rest of army allows early on, don't split as much late-game" will work for you, and you won't lose much efficiency.

Have 5 mages only?  make 5 stacks of 1.  If you have 20, just make a bunch of stacks of 3 and then 2 stacks of 4.

The only reasons you would avoid doing that are other creatures in army or enemy AoE spells/attacks.  Not much thought after all.  Even if you don't know exact damage break points, it's unlikely that you'll fall too significantly behind "optimized" in most cases, especially while creeping, which is where this is the most useful.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread »
Post New Poll Post New Topic Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0466 seconds