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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: I want you for WoG 3.59 :) WoG goes open-source!
Thread: I want you for WoG 3.59 :) WoG goes open-source! This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
GrayFace
GrayFace


Promising
Known Hero
posted December 19, 2013 10:14 AM
Edited by GrayFace at 10:15, 19 Dec 2013.

I want you for WoG 3.59 :) WoG goes open-source!

It's been a long time. 9 years since 3.58f. Over 5.5 years since I started working on and off on 3.59 executable in CoreWoG team.
Right now I've arrived at a pretty strong and stable intermediate version and personally have the time to push things forward. Only a few WoG Team/CoreWoG people are still active, so it's time to get new people on board.
First, here is alpha version of WoG 3.59: https://github.com/GrayFace/wog
It's open source. Doesn't include any parts of new towns. You're welcome to test it, it can be downloaded from Releases. I should warn you that I'm sure there's a lot of bugs to be discovered, new WoGification scripts are barely tested and there's 1 bug that results in a crash.

Most important changes:
- Lua scripting (with full support of ERM commands). This is the recommended, conflict-free way to make scripts. See info\AboutLua.txt for brief introduction.
- New Lua-based custom dialogs. Any standard dialog can be controlled as well. This functionality is not exposed to ERM scripts. See info\Tutorials\dialogs.htm for brief introduction.
- Custom LODs loaded by scripts.
- Mods support. In progress.
- Various new receivers and triggers. For example, GOTO in ERM. See info\ChageLog*.txt files.
- New scripts made by original WoG Team.

What needs to be done:
- New towns support. In progress.
- Finishing mods support, adding custom SND and VID archives etc.
- Incorporating HD Mod or compatibility with it. Implementing various features of Era.
- New graphics for menu. Campaign menu now includes SoD campaign as well. Campaign buttons should be reorganized somehow.
- Fixing wogification scripts. Reorganizing them to be managable.
- New towns themselves.
- Updating ERM Help to include new ERM stuff and information on Lua scripts API.

So, if you want to take part in WoG 3.59 or mods for it, please add yourself to my Skype: sergroj_(my nickname). From my previous experience I think Skype group text chat is best for team conversations. Send me an email/PM if Skype is a problem for you for some reason.

(Please make this topic a sticky)

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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted December 19, 2013 12:30 PM

How's about Bastion town?
Would Corwin share it to include into WOG 3.59, or there is no hope seeing it?

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted December 19, 2013 05:10 PM

I can gladly help with new menu graphics !

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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted December 19, 2013 06:55 PM

By the way, is there any reason to continue WOG?
Most mods are on ERA now, and I don't think they will be easily converted to WOG.
If you want open-source, maybe it's better for you to work on VCMI?
VCMI doesn't have script support now, and it's open source also.
Or you can try to incorporate WOG code into VCMI.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted December 19, 2013 09:37 PM

Macron1 said:
By the way, is there any reason to continue WOG?



Would be my main question too. 2-3 years ago, a loud YES as answer, but now we've got era, some even worked hard and long on, and it proved to be rather stable platform and address numerous unpleasant issues from 3.58. If LUA is providing a much bug free scripting, I guess it can be incorporated into Era following a joint work on. It is true that custom dialogs lack animations and having them would give a much more professional layout.

As for new scripts from original team, I guess they have an historical value. IMO, players are more interested by custom and well tested mods, which provide solid game-play experience. Not mentioning that this means starting a whole and long testing session again, while a lot of original 3.58 scripts were already corrected for era and re-packed as wog revised mod.

Not trying to sound negative or such, Grayface contribution to HoMM is invaluable and played a major role into game life. But legitimately wondering if would not be better and more friendly to combine the already tested era with the few things 3.59 claims to add and release under whatever name.
____________
All my Era II mods

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted December 19, 2013 09:53 PM

I agree witg Sal, here. This is already an old game staying alive with third party work. Too many platforms and diversion leaves everybody in the middle. The contributions would be much more practical on a single, solid platform which as of now is the wonderful Era. We already have VCMI and Era. Why bring to the table a third plate when the new features can be added to Era and stuff can be on a new modified version. Bersy is around, I'm sure he'll welcome Grayface's updates.  

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Chagoux
Chagoux


Hired Hero
posted December 19, 2013 10:01 PM

There is already a third one, HoTA, and I personnally wouldn't mind for an extra one IF it's WoG 3.59

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KevinHann
KevinHann


Adventuring Hero
posted December 19, 2013 10:15 PM

Chagoux said:
There is already a third one, HoTA, and I personnally wouldn't mind for an extra one IF it's WoG 3.59


I am confused as to what WoG 3.59 as presented would bring over the other three combined? I hope I am wrong but at this stage it sounds a bit like releasing an enhanced editor for Restoration of Erathia maps.

Am I missing something? Does this release contain any currently usable content other than new scripts from the original WoG team?

P.S.: I hope this doesn't sound disrespectful and it is not my intention at all, I have but the deepest respect for everyone involved with WoG.

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Hobbit
Hobbit


Supreme Hero
subiroK ot għicosutak
posted December 19, 2013 10:30 PM

So, WoG 3.59 won't be installed by players, only by modders, who won't release new mods on this platform since no one would play them.

I agree, it should be released under ERA.
____________
Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted December 20, 2013 01:50 AM
Edited by artu at 02:12, 20 Dec 2013.

Chagoux said:
There is already a third one, HoTA, and I personnally wouldn't mind for an extra one IF it's WoG 3.59

The problem is they are not exactly "extra" ones. People who work on H3 modding are numbered, with too many platforms out there, we start to get different features on incompatible grounds, not being able to enjoy them on the same game playing experience. The new towns and artifacts of HotA or VCMI are already seperated from the custom modding capabilities of Era, we already have a dividing path. Fortunately the HD mod is compatible with Era, so no dilemmas there. You stick to and get experienced on one of them (I prefer Era) and make it your routine H3 app. Back when there was  just Wog, we could choose from every new feature in our custom game, now imagine you have commanders on one platform, new buildings in another, yet another mod lets you turn on creature XP and another mod has new creatures. It wouldn't be better, would it? This is where we're headed. As a constant H3 player, of course  I feel grateful to every person who contributes and creates these features but it would be much better (and probably easier on them too) if things were more united and we could focus on testing the bugs of one platform not three or four, even five or six in the future.  

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Orzie
Orzie


Promising
Supreme Hero
Reinventing the Steel
posted December 20, 2013 03:57 AM
Edited by Orzie at 04:08, 20 Dec 2013.

Pretty sure it will be doable to convert WoG 3.59 into Era as well when it will be done.

You guys underestimate the value of the new script language. I myself didn't try ERM only because of its unlikeness to classic script languages I'm familiar with. Lua scripts can become the groundwork
for the new generation of mods. Fortunately, HMMIII is still played, and as long as it's played, there will be modders as well.

Macron1 said:

By the way, is there any reason to continue WOG?

Definitely. Go to the Internet outside the Heroes Community, Acid Cave and DF2 forums and ask anyone which words do they know about: WoG, Era, HotA.
And guess which word they do know about, and which two they don't know about.
Not even speaking about VCMI - a strange acronym which sounds scary to every HMMIII player not visiting the HMM forums. I was the same man a month ago.


Macron1 said:
Most mods are on ERA now, and I don't think they will be easily converted to WOG.

I think the opposite.


Macron1 said:
If you want open-source, maybe it's better for you to work on VCMI?
VCMI doesn't have script support now, and it's open source also.
Or you can try to incorporate WOG code into VCMI.

For what's sake should GrayFace port one undone platform to another undone platform? That makes no sense at the current moment.
____________
My music here

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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted December 20, 2013 04:52 AM

Orzie said:

For what's sake should GrayFace port one undone platform to another undone platform? That makes no sense at the current moment.


Because one undone platform is better than two.

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IvanSav
IvanSav


Adventuring Hero
posted December 20, 2013 08:58 AM

Macron, you can't just take Lua scripting from WoG and add it to vcmi - systems are just too different.

Besides - Lua scripting in WoG is a thin wrapper on top of ERM. Not an independent subsystem. Although this is clear improvement over ERM I still can't consider this syntax as proper way to implement scripting:
CA(4,5,0):M2(0, 1, 10)
Quote:
Pretty sure it will be doable to convert WoG 3.59 into Era as well when it will be done.

How? WoG offers Lua while Era does not. So you should either use only ERM or maintain both Lua and ERM scripts.
And if features from WoG will be ported to Era and vice versa - what's the point of having two identical platforms?

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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted December 20, 2013 10:11 AM

IvanSav said:
Macron, you can't just take Lua scripting from WoG and add it to vcmi - systems are just too different.



I understand this. But since GrayFace done LUA/ERM link once, he can implement the same on VCMI. Experience is hard to loose.
It's more about that better to help VCMI with programming skills (this release prooves GrayFace master skill) than create another non-compatible reverse-engineered platform with unknown perspectives.

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Bersy
Bersy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted December 20, 2013 01:53 PM

1. If WoG 3.59 is insanely active and become popular and stable, porting Era to 3.59 makes sense. Though stand-alone hackers and plugin writes are out of boat in such case (while they are the only driven force when projects are abandoned).
2. Both Era and 3.59 are open sourced and we communicate with GrayFace for long time. It means that we can adopt some features from each other that are not hard to extract (as opposed to projects like MoP, which give nothing to modding community).
3. Friendly concurrency is good. For instance, a motivation to add Lua scripting to Era :-) Same is with 3.59. It has to support many thing introduced by Era in order to be perceived up-to-date.
4. If Era and 3.59 are close enough, the projects can be merged. When they are close enough and if they are close enough.
5. There is no goal to make VCMI, Era and 3.59 mods not interchangeable. On the contrary, we try to use the same data formats when it's possible. For instance, I'm planning to use Json for new configuration files and if I find VCMI variant appropriate for the same task, it would be rather practical to adopt their configuration rules.
6. People who work on existing game and likes its modding will not work on open sourced project creating game from scratch and vice versa. Proposals to change "orientation" are troll or newbie way. Personally I wish every project a good luck and think that it would be nice to have strong VCMI, strong 3.59 platforms. It's not hard for me to abandon my project in order something more practical and perfect to obtain new development vector. It means that if VCMI had full power for the things we all accustomed to, it would make sense to make commits to VCMI and write VCMI Lua/Python libraries. Same goes to 3.59.

But in reality projects have ability to slow down or even die and for this reason it's safer to do the things you are already doing and you are good at.

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Orzie
Orzie


Promising
Supreme Hero
Reinventing the Steel
posted December 20, 2013 01:54 PM
Edited by Orzie at 13:55, 20 Dec 2013.

Nothing personal, but the perspectives of VCMI are undefined either. Only pluses and minuses if compared to WoG/Era, which are much more stable, in addition.

Bersy, thanks for your reply, exactly the same thoughts all the way.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted December 20, 2013 03:07 PM

Dunno how to feel about this. With HotA, ERA and VCMI kicking, I considered WoG 3.59 all but in the grave. I'm worried about splitting the community even more
____________

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Chagoux
Chagoux


Hired Hero
posted December 22, 2013 12:41 AM

artu said:
Chagoux said:
There is already a third one, HoTA, and I personnally wouldn't mind for an extra one IF it's WoG 3.59

The problem is they are not exactly "extra" ones. People who work on H3 modding are numbered, with too many platforms out there, we start to get different features on incompatible grounds, not being able to enjoy them on the same game playing experience. The new towns and artifacts of HotA or VCMI are already seperated from the custom modding capabilities of Era, we already have a dividing path. Fortunately the HD mod is compatible with Era, so no dilemmas there. You stick to and get experienced on one of them (I prefer Era) and make it your routine H3 app. Back when there was  just Wog, we could choose from every new feature in our custom game, now imagine you have commanders on one platform, new buildings in another, yet another mod lets you turn on creature XP and another mod has new creatures. It wouldn't be better, would it? This is where we're headed. As a constant H3 player, of course  I feel grateful to every person who contributes and creates these features but it would be much better (and probably easier on them too) if things were more united and we could focus on testing the bugs of one platform not three or four, even five or six in the future.  


Thanks for this answer. I love ERA so ... yeah ;-)

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GrayFace
GrayFace


Promising
Known Hero
posted December 22, 2013 06:37 PM
Edited by GrayFace at 18:47, 22 Dec 2013.

Macron1 said:
How's about Bastion town?
Would Corwin share it to include into WOG 3.59, or there is no hope seeing it?

I'm sure it will be in 3.59 eventually.

Era patches a compiled WoG exe, which means the cost of changing it is much higher. This approach is unpractical in a long run.
Basically, ending it all on Era is equivalent to saying that Heroes 3 community is dead/on a a death bed. I don't think it is. 10 years ago a lot of people were making scripts, but graphics were weak, 5 years ago graphics were flourishing with high-quality 3D models in new towns, then a few years ago came time for high-quality mods, at the same time Era II became the de-facto platform for mods. Interest to H3 is inevitably going down, but this doesn't mean we won't see another wave of cool things.
WoG 3.59 is targeted at new mods. Mods porting is good and may be easy depending on the mod, but if some mods stay in Era it's fine, you can simply play them in Era. New towns support should be a big deal when it's finished in 3.59.
WoG 3.59, like Era, is made to host different mods with "WoG" being one of them. Someone (I hope it won't be me) would need to carry the fixes made to wogification scripts in Era over to 3.59.
Adding features of Era into 3.59 is far easier than making them in the first place. That's the power of open-source.
VCMI is the thing that may render WoG irrelevant in future. That future surely isn't here yet. It's surprisingly close. I'm hoping to see it perform as good as SoD in a few years and a few years later fully surpass WoG, but it's not for me, I don't want to jump into another Heroes 3 project. I've got WoG 3.59 getting so close to what I wanted it to be in terms of platform and I've got other things to move on to, not related to Heroes 3.

KevinHann said:
Am I missing something? Does this release contain any currently usable content other than new scripts from the original WoG team?

Nope, it's just a platform to build things on.

IvanSav said:
Besides - Lua scripting in WoG is a thin wrapper on top of ERM. Not an independent subsystem.

Not at all. Lua is now the main subsystem. ERM is one of APIs exposed to Lua, so to speak.
A wrapper on top of that API can make you write things in a more natural way, like GetTown(4,5,0).Guards[0]:Set(1, 10) or something better than that. That wrapper can be standardized across WoG and VCMI.

Bersy said:
5. There is no goal to make VCMI, Era and 3.59 mods not interchangeable. On the contrary, we try to use the same data formats when it's possible. For instance, I'm planning to use Json for new configuration files and if I find VCMI variant appropriate for the same task, it would be rather practical to adopt their configuration rules.

I use ini, Lua and txt tables and don't track what's in other platforms. Maybe I'll use JSON somewhere, because it's more widely used then Lua.

Galaad said:
I can gladly help with new menu graphics !

Cool. You're welcome to my Skype. It isn't decided yet what the graphics should be, though. BTW, a new eye icon for WoG is also desired. It's kinda lame that a part of old Photo Shop or Paint Shop Pro icon is still used as the icon of WoG

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Orzie
Orzie


Promising
Supreme Hero
Reinventing the Steel
posted December 22, 2013 06:41 PM

GrayFace said:
It's kinda lame that a part of old Photo Shop or Paint Shop Pro icon is still used as the icon of WoG

...and also it's lame to see there many graphics used from Allods (Rage of Mages) and other things which are not so neat. Will hope till death they will be changed sometime.
Keep it up!

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