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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Unit's experience, solo units and solo heroes
Thread: Unit's experience, solo units and solo heroes This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Lesij
Lesij


Famous Hero
posted August 18, 2014 12:48 AM

Unit's experience, solo units and solo heroes

I think that some of WOG and H IV options should at long last be included. These ideas were liked by heros fans...
I love the idea that units can gain experience (WOG) and I think that this should be re-introduced in HVII + heroes and units being able to roam the map and battle alone is very logical for me. But needs a lot of balancing and I think ubi is afraid of it ;< And it shouldn't! HV and HVI were very bugged and poorly balanced games and we still played them and had fun.

I really don't understand why doesn't ubi just read what was the best in H III, H III WOG and H IV according to heroes series fans, but all the fridgin' time tries to be "creative", "inventive" and so on and so forth... In my opinion ubi should make one good, based on what fans would prefer most heroes game. And after that success - experiment. Until now they didn't overcome H III, not to mention H III WOG.
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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted August 18, 2014 12:52 AM

And who says Creature Experience was a great feature? I've enjoyed playing with it time ago, but to my eyes it's a very flawed concept which goes terribly against game economy.

Heroes on the battlefield deserve no mention, H5 showed how to give heroes more presence on the battlefield without the big problems H4 had. Let alone mention HoM&M is about leading armies in war, not heroes killing monsters...
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Lesij
Lesij


Famous Hero
posted August 18, 2014 01:08 AM

I say this. Some of my friends too. That is why the best feature in my opinion, ubi won't reintroduce, is the ability to pick which options one wants (like when you chose Wogify settings).

1) why creature experience?
In my point of view that is just stupid your battle-hardened army is of the same strenght as the fresh recruits of your enemy

2) why solo heroes and creatures?
As I said - it is more logical. But, for example, should have some nasty modifiers so neither of them can reach the full potential when alone. Powerful heroes not being able to wander and fight alone is just an absurd. Same with the armies.

My propositions of rebalancing the issue:
1) hero would mostly level the stats that would affect the army not him (so when alone - he would lose those stats); the stats affecting his performance should level more slowly
2) hero when being alone should lose battle as a king in chess - while an enemy creature reaches the adjacent tile and they won't be able to run form it in their next move
3) army without hero should produce deserters which would randomly join neutral creatures or even create their own camps
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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted August 18, 2014 02:43 AM

Storm-Giant said:
And who says Creature Experience was a great feature?


I think it is. For one, it allows more variety on the battle field, by unlocking new abilities with each rank. For two, it forces the player to have a careful attitude about mixing armies and not giggle with stacks around. For three, it is realistic, in the sense that effective war is a matter of training too, not only recruiting.

I don't see any downside to creatures experience but will read if any detailed arguments against.

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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted August 18, 2014 03:32 AM

Sal said:


I don't see any downside to creatures experience but will read if any detailed arguments against.


Doesn't work in Heroes because Heroes' units arent singular ; they re a huge stack, 1 crusher or 1 000 crusher. So you lvl up 1 crusher to lvl 3 then you add 999 crushers to it? cheat!

Doesn't work.

Age of Wonders wouldn't let you position your army before battle. What a dumb game. So you got a unit lvl 1 you want to lvl higher, yet you don't know if it'll end up near the fight, or away from? omg.

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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted August 18, 2014 03:37 AM

kayna said:

Doesn't work in Heroes because Heroes' units arent singular ; they re a huge stack, 1 crusher or 1 000 crusher. So you lvl up 1 crusher to lvl 3 then you add 999 crushers to it? cheat!


No, experience is redistributed. Never played wog?

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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted August 18, 2014 03:54 AM

God I hate abbreviations. What is WOG? And does it have some competitive multiplayer?

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 18, 2014 09:57 AM

I have to say I was rather taken with both battlefield heroes and creature experience myself, but since I've never really played competitively I'll leave it to those who have to say whether it's redeemable, although I will say that if your introduce creature experience you can at least partially do away with the idea that their stats are boosted by being in the hero's army.

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted August 18, 2014 10:17 AM

Having units gain Xp could be useful but not in the sence of leveling up a unit. Instead creatures could unlock a feature in the town for alternate upgrades or (like H5 heaven) upgrade to a different tier creature.
Imagine this. H6 vestals which are both healers and damage dealers could alternately gain a third upgrade makeing them holy priestess with advanced buffing ability if they OR if they got enough killing xp get the option to rturn into Glories aka ascending into light incarnate(a more logical explanation to what glories are than light elementals.)
This theme upgrading units was already a great feature of H5 Heaven but could easily be implemented to necropolis, and since stronghold, Fortress, Sylvan are both full of orks/dwarves/elves respectively,it  could also be not that hard to do in those towns as well. All it takes is a little fantasy in creature line-ups. And for the towns that don't have this option there is still the option to gain third upgrade options fore one or several creatures.

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted August 18, 2014 10:21 AM

Quote:
What is WOG? And does it have some competitive multiplayer?


Wake of God is an unofficial, but huge mod for Heroes 3, essentially being called HoMM 3.5 now and then (I think it is in these forums, is it?) It added TONS of stuff, many of which was great, and many of which was not, but as you could switch on and off most things, it was simply awesome. It WAS quite complex, though

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 18, 2014 10:31 AM

Storm-Giant said it all.

In HoMM HEROES het the experience and use it to support and strengthen their armies; giving armies XP in addition not only "doubles" the importance of gaining XP, it is contrary to the actual target of production increase, since creature XP makes up for numbers - so those are somewhat in contrast to each other.

For creature XP to be a useful addition you would have to impose FIXED limits on the sheer amount of troops an army could field; while this would work, it would STILL reduce the importance of Heroes AND make fairly basic creatures necessary.
It also would make UPGRADES unnecessary, since XP gain would upgrade your creatures on the fly.
Instead, a more choice-driven town-building would be the way to go.

Options are fine, but mutually exclusive options amount to two different games.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 18, 2014 10:54 AM
Edited by MattII at 10:55, 18 Aug 2014.

Thing is though, a bunch of high-XP troops may have been a tough target for a straight-up fight, but since health only grew slowly, they were quite vulnerable to spells.

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Darkem
Darkem


Known Hero
posted August 18, 2014 11:01 AM

There's no place for XP for units in Heroes games. This series is about army managing not about group of heroes and their companions who level up and gain new skills.
When I want to play that kind of game I just look for my Disciples II CD .

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 18, 2014 11:11 AM

'There's no place' for lots of things, in the game, but they get added anyway, and you know, some of them turn out okay.

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
posted August 18, 2014 12:20 PM

kayna said:
God I hate abbreviations. What is WOG? And does it have some competitive multiplayer?


Check here

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Lesij
Lesij


Famous Hero
posted August 18, 2014 12:45 PM

@JollyJoker

He haven't said it all. Heros are not about gathering armies. Not for everybody. Some people like to explore the map, some love the sieges, some - open-field battles, some quests and some the atmosphere. And the atmosphere is what Heroes 3+ LACK!
Ubi gives better graphics, new mechanics, racials, alt. upgs and so on and so forth, but doesn't pay attention to what was special to H3 and to WOG. And that is the atmosphere. Even though H3 and H3,5 are 2D, even though heros role is minimised, you can feel as if you were on the battlefield, as the battles were somehow real.
In those new productions at least I and some of my friends can't really feel that. Game mechanics overruled it. You can't have successful mixed armies, because of racials, you can't go on adventure with your small army, but have to beat around towns and garrisons to collect it because there is no experience gain for creatures and necromancy was screwed up, you can't rush as effetively as in H3 or H5...
Giving back wandering heros, wandering armies and stack experience would make it all managable and add much more variability to the game.

Seriously - the best thing ubi could do about HVII is to start negotiating with people who created WOG and use their creative ideas - just give them a 3D engine and good multiplayer.
In my opinion it would be just rad if ubi gave us the ability to chose game options like WOG creators did. You can't make everyone happy, as you can see in this thread. Why not allow each player create their own game?
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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted August 18, 2014 12:54 PM

Right, everyone's opinion about how and what should be Heroes is entirely subjective. So far, experience system was implemented in H3 via wog options and it works great. Great games should share and improve the features making them gold.

Heroes X should learn from Age of Wonders, from Disciples, then stop going solo and with each new sequel bury deeper its grave.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted August 18, 2014 03:00 PM

Lesij said:
In my opinion it would be just rad if ubi gave us the ability to chose game options like WOG creators did. You can't make everyone happy, as you can see in this thread. Why not allow each player create their own game?

Even if Ubisoft hired 1000 studios, I don't think they would be enough to add options to make each HoM&M player happy...

I already expressed my opinion. Creature experience, as seen in WoG, disrupts game economy, with a small army you can get much stronger than you should, therefore having more resources at your disposal than you normally would.
Let alone mention JJ point: hero gets experience, and armies are already boosted through the hero...
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Lesij
Lesij


Famous Hero
posted August 18, 2014 03:09 PM

@Storm-Giant

Maybe each is too much a word. Most of ;P If there was a topic with brainstorm, ubi could create a poll in which people would chose the most popular switchable options. If they were switchable, as in WOG, ubi is in win-win position. Doesn't have to give up any of the grat ideas, becuase about 50% likes them and 50% don't.
As I said in this thread:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=40476
I can wait for HVII to be released in '16 or '17, not in '15 if they decided to add variable game mechanics.
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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted August 18, 2014 03:25 PM

Sal said:
Right, everyone's opinion about how and what should be Heroes is entirely subjective.

What should be, yes. What it is, nope.

HoM&M is about heroes leading armies through a chess-type battlefield where stacks represents numbers of creatures, while the hero as a one explores the adventure map. That how HoM&M started in 1995, and for the most part remained true through the series.

Now, some Heroes (like 4) and mods (like WoG) have changed the 'classic' formula. And there are quite a lot of people that liked/loved those changes, no doubt about it. But would this changes be accepted by the mayority of HoM&M fanbase? For many of them, I don't think so.

Of course, innovation has to come on every installment of the series. But adding a certain feature just because some people had fun with it in a MOD...just isn't enough to me. And here come the critics to that feature in particular that have been pointed out in this thread.
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