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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: ~ Heroes VII - Shadow Council ~
Thread: ~ Heroes VII - Shadow Council ~ This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
properkheldar
properkheldar


Famous Hero
Keeper of books
posted May 12, 2015 06:33 PM

Do prove me wrong here but when did Ubi promise "open development" and "free communication" in the sense that they would implement every suggestion and change every critizised feature, in relation to all fans? And if they did, how would that work practically?

I was never under the impression that all features were up for debate or subject to change. Ofc certain things were to be "set in stone" for all kinds of reasons.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted May 12, 2015 07:01 PM

not sure if that was said in that sense because that would be retarded, but they did make several lofty promises from the beginning which I know I am underwhelmed by lol

Quote:
Beyond the development of a new game, it is a real passion we would like to share with you all in the following months. Be prepared to discover all together the strengths, new features and insights of the next Might & Magic®  game: Might & Magic® Heroes VII.

Join us right away to obtain the latest news and exclusivities of the title, exchange with the dev team but also truly influence the game with impactful votes: starting right away with the Sylvan vs. Fortress vote!

More than ever, we want to work closely with you, be as transparent as possible and give you the floor. We know how ambitious this might sound but this isn’t our first try now and even if not everything might be perfect, we have the will to do the best all together!

The Shadow Council give you the possibility to make your voice count, especially through different votes that will be proposed along the months but also the ability to comment and exchange on all website pages! Furthermore, you will be able to follow the progress of Might & Magic® Heroes VII game development, obtain insights about the upcoming features, the team and more, and way more!

We are the Might & Magic® team, a tasty mix of Limbic Entertainement and Ubisoft team members who will keep you up to date of all development details and answer your questions. We will of course take the time to introduce ourselves in near future.

Votes are a key feature of the Shadow Council and will offer a real impact on the game experience of Might & Magic® Heroes VII. Starting today, you have the possibility to vote for one of the main elements of any Might & Magic® Heroes game: the factions!

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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted May 12, 2015 07:29 PM

We got two incosequential votes, one vote to change two unit models and insults for taking the council seriously. That's not failing to reach promises, that's straight up lying and abusing customer goodwill. Outright appauling behaviour. And there is only Ubi to blame. We did what we thought was expected: pointed out flaws, faults and things we did not want because they said they would listen and consider. Instead they ignored and insulted.

That is not okay.
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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted May 12, 2015 07:58 PM
Edited by Sandro400 at 20:05, 12 May 2015.

Well, "technically" speaking, everything that Verriker bolded out in his post is... true. 3 very quick examples:
1) "Be prepared to discover all together the strengths, new features and insights of the next Might & Magic®  game: Might & Magic® Heroes VII." Yep, we're discovering that. We also discover the flaws and mistakes of HVII in the process, but the statement doesn't say we won't discover them.
2) "Impactful votes". "Impactful" may be interpreted differently, right? For some votes like "choose your Vampire" do not impact the game experience, some were screaming for Blood Monster. And a little trick here: the statement does not promise that all votes will be impactful.
3) "The Shadow Council give you the possibility to make your voice count". I bolded out the word that should have been bolded out instead of "make your voice count". + correct me if I'm wrong, shouldn't it be "Council gives?

Guys, those are very base and little tricks of advertising. Heck, consider it the basest of all perks of Advertising skill. And you bump into them almost everyday, but blame Ubisoft as if it's the only one using them.
I do not defend the company, but that's how advertising works.
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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted May 12, 2015 08:15 PM

technically they're still full of snow.

you're not wrong in that it's just a marketing ploy. Anyona can/could (it was obvious back then) see that. They still didn't deliver what was promised. *Technically they did, but was kinda like saying "50% off!!!" with big, red letters to then go there for a 10% discount for the next purchase after you've signed for their newsletter.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted May 12, 2015 08:54 PM

yeah I don't disagree either, I am sure there is much worse dirt on them elsewhere, but like I said these promises I only personally find to have amounted to underwhelming bollocks lol
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 12, 2015 09:47 PM

Quote:
Making votes for gameplay stuff would be a disaster

IMHO it all depends how the votes are being handled. In the lineups example, it has been suggested by several members that voting for separate creatures instead of full lineups would have been more accurate to the community's wishes. I share this position. Once creatures are selected, the game designer’s imagination is the only limit to make the gameplay adapt, as is the writer’s in order to make it fit the lore. The way I see it, we have been imposed creatures we didn’t want even in the lineups we voted for. For some it’s the troglodytes, for others the deer etc. Of course at the end not 100% will be satisfied because it is impossible, but I firmly believe a lot more than the current status.

However, I am pretty convinced that gameplay decisions could have been done in collaboration with the community. If I had to do it:

Before starting to conceptualize or even brainstorm anything, I would poll the community by asking general gameplay features, such as, in example:

- Do you favor random skill or non-random skill core system?
- Do you favor hexes or squares?
- Do you want area of control?
- Do you want town conversion?
- Do you want town portal to be a building or a spell?
- Do you want specific buildings associated to dwellings to affect creature growth or fort=>citadel=>castle?
- Do you favor 7 tier or 3 tier system?
- Do you favor alternate buildings?

And so on.
I think VIP fans could help a lot in defining these questions (taking into consideration the input of "standard" community members ofc )

These are choices which actually I believe matter and have a real impact on the gameplay, and a simple yes/no, with no ability to change your vote in the process, so you have to really think through it before giving your vote, instead of constantly change your mind as it happened with the lineup votes (remember, Fury was the least expected to win at the beginning, I believe the rush contributed a lot).
I am pretty much convinced this would  clarify in a concrete and realistic way what does the community really wants and awaits in a new HOMM title. And to keep things even more open, some "altar of suggestions" could officially exist, and if an unsuspected idea seems to be popular, backed up by concise argumentation, maybe a "poll for nothing" could exist, and even become real in a second step and make it an official vote. Game developers themselves could post their ideas there and directly interact with the community, to take the temperature, why not?

Now for the most important part:

I would not do each voting at a time but all at once, and during a long period of time, something like one year, and the votes would be closed, yet the subjects being revealed, for a few months beforehand. Moderators would open threads corresponding to each decision to make, and community members would exchange opinions in advance, and most importantly, in a platform which would encourage a true reflection and ask members to give their best inputs on the matter.

What do you think?
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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted May 12, 2015 11:05 PM

What I think is that the time to do such thing is long gone.
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Science isn't about WHY. It's about WHY NOT.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 13, 2015 01:43 PM

PandaTar said:
What I think is that the time to do such thing is long gone.

I agree, given it was already too late at the time Shadow Council opened. But I was asking hypothetically ofc.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 14, 2015 11:54 AM

No one? Let's complain about complainers in the discussion thread instead?
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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted May 14, 2015 01:24 PM

can't complain. snow goes by faster there so i get to eat more popcorn
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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 14, 2015 04:09 PM

Galaad said:
No one? Let's complain about complainers in the discussion thread instead?


To be honest, I didn't even realize people were posting in this thread.

But I have to agree with PandaTar, it's sort of a too little, too late sort of thing. It might have worked if implemented a long time ago, but by now, it's effectively useless for H7. Perhaps for H8, eh?

Possibly, you meant for us to answer those questions here. However, you didn't exactly say for us to answer here, because the way it reads it sounds like "do you guys like my proposal", so I'd think many people would say "yeah, they should do that" and then that'd be that. Or they read Panda's response and think "Yeah, it wouldn't change anything now," and then just left. At least, that was my initial reaction upon seeing his response a couple of days ago.

I also agree with Kiryu. That thread is quite entertaining, even if the same arguments get repeated every 100 pages or so.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted May 14, 2015 04:36 PM

They are likely to fill 100 pages each time, actually.

And that's accurate: it can work for H8, if it survives that long and that's all there's to say. Also, adding some other questions can do, but that's a matter of perspective. And again, when making that list, it'll be a raging storm whether to define which of those must be focused upon, which of those are things that need 'fixing', because people simply cannot agree upon some things and are divided in a way that it's simply hard to make it work. I'm pretty sure that some here don't see a reason to do that at all, given that they are agreeing and thinking the new installment is very good and is fulfilling their expectations: that's their choice and they are not forced - or even shouldn't - to comply with that proposal of yours.

    - Do you favor random skill or non-random skill core system? Hybrid, based on proficiency (hero gain experience and chance of skill choices based on one's actions and not only by finding treasures and battling).
    - Do you favor hexes or squares? Hexes
    - Do you want area of control? I'm not worried about it as long as it's well implemented. Definitely not like H6.
    - Do you want town conversion? Nope. I don't like this idea. The most less unpleasant I would find it is having limitation on how much a converted town would be usable, in addition to costs and time consumed in such transition.
    - Do you want town portal to be a building or a spell? Maybe only an adventure building linked to the town building, a seer or something like that, a bit less controllable than the current situation. And definitely not like H6.
    - Do you want specific buildings associated to dwellings to affect creature growth or fort=>citadel=>castle? I see no reason why there shouldn't exist.
    - Do you favor 7 tier or 3 tier system? None. I prefer not bound to tier system. Buildings and small improvements could be made improving units beyond their boundaries.
    - Do you favor alternate buildings? Yes. Also, if well implemented.

That's that.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 15, 2015 12:29 AM

Thanks Panda.
Of course these questions were quick examples I made on the spot and if such approach would be tried, it would require a deep thinking in order to choose what and how.

Quote:
Hybrid, based on proficiency (hero gain experience and chance of skill choices based on one's actions and not only by finding treasures and battling).

I have seen many people providing substantial arguments in favor of classic random skills + free perks. I think what you suggest with proficiency would make the system even richer.
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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted May 15, 2015 08:34 AM
Edited by kiryu133 at 08:36, 15 May 2015.

well, i guess i could do this if it helps something.

- Do you favor random skill or non-random skill core system? Random, though i think the h7 one could easily be turned random (and great) with a bit of effort.

- Do you favor hexes or squares? octagons . ok, if it's a choice between these two, hexes. Squares just seem so cumbersome in play.

- Do you want area of control? if it's implemented well i don't see why not. h7 AoC seems reasonable enough.

- Do you want town conversion? yes, but at a much steeper price (though not as steep as WoG)

- Do you want town portal to be a building or a spell? both? it didn't work in h6 because you had too much control over it. If it was a spell that normally sent you to the closest town unless you've built a town portal (limited to one per kingdom) which overrides this and forces you to go to that town every time instead. would get some "do i build it or not" situations.

- Do you want specific buildings associated to dwellings to affect creature growth or fort=>citadel=>castle? I don't want forts to disappear, but i want +creature growth buildings back as well. They were cheap alternatives when you were low on special recourses and gave a nice bonus over time.

- Do you favor 7 tier or 3 tier system? i want a four-tier system with 2 creatures per tier (without having to choose one like in h4 )

- Do you favor alternate buildings? examples? i don't want to be forced to choose between creatures if that's what you mean. really hated that in h4.

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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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Dies_Irae
Dies_Irae


Supreme Hero
Official spokesbirb
posted May 15, 2015 09:24 AM
Edited by Dies_Irae at 09:31, 15 May 2015.

Stevie said:
I think that the main problem is actually the fanbase around the Shadow Council. Hotheaded, restless members, part of the new generation, who don't have any knowledge or standards and are oblivious of the history and legacy of the series. Constructive criticism and attempts at argumentation either end up under the tsunami of spam and trash talk, or they quickly degenerate into ego battles and flame wars, and the environment allows it.


I find it very sad that you present it this way, because I think you know very well that this is far from true. I mean, look at the Necro Elite-Champion reveal, look at the Necro townscreen reveal, and the voting for the new Lich. It was the old fanbase that became incredibly hostile, loud, vocal, spammy and ragy, turning into the Sandro movement which started to flood the entire comment section. You contributed to that too, complete with Caps Lock abuse. So, saying that it is only the new generation, a part of the fanbase to which I kind of belong too even though I met the franchise with H3, is quite incorrect in my opinion. Also, saying that 'we' don't have standards is down-right insulting. It's like stating we have no taste, well, we DO. It's just not YOUR taste, not YOUR standards, but why should that matter? Am I wrong for liking H6? I know it is not a popular opinion in this fanbase, but I stand by it. I defend it. And I can defend it thoroughly if I have to, and I am also able to point out the flaws in that game, things that should have been better.

Hotheadedness, restlessness and trashtalking are traits of the old fanbase just as much, Steves. Don't try to put the blame on just one side of it. The lack of respect for the new ways is strong on the old side, not just on the new one (if any). But I am not afraid to defend H6. And as long as there is no respect on BOTH sides, there is no room for friendly, constructive discussion. But this respect has to come from two parties, not one. It's not like the New Fanbase has to respect the Old Fanbase just because the Old Fanbase "knows better". There may very well be people who weren't even born at the time of H3, and they meet the franchise only now. You can hardly blame them for not knowing the legacy and what Heroes used to be. How could they know? For all they care, H3 is "that old game with silly graphics" and the new ones, starting with 5, are much more of their liking.

Stevie said:
The thing is that some of the members from there have crept their way here on the HC boards, bringing their vocal personalities with them which causes friction. Some of them don't even have the basic understanding of what an argument even is, throwing fallacies like straw men, red herrings, not to mention ad hominems. However, among the more knowledgeable and eloquent members, they are very easy to spot, and not before long (I hope) they will be weeded out.


I am such a member. I did not have an HC account before I had a Uplay one. Agreed, Galaad and I have crossed swords here, like on the SC, but never did it escalate to very insane proportions. And again, vocal personalities are not just the new ones. In fact, show me where they are, for it is the old fanbase that is the most present when they are robbed of their toys again. Here you present a one-sided image in your favor, which I don't agree with. You're saying you just don't want this new fanbase around, clearly you are not receptive to their views and comments? I agree that stupid comments, haterage, spam and what not is not tolerated, but decent, normal and well-thought through ways of communication should remain. I, as a fan of H6, and other games in the franchise, am no saint, but at least I try to remain calm, live long and prosper. You want to weed me out too? That will be like Ubi mopping up your criticism

Stevie said:
I don't know when the bile and vitriol will stop, if ever. All I know is that I've stopped posting there. I still follow the news and read the top comments occasionally, other than that the place is a cesspit undeserving of my attention.


You've stopped posting there? Then who wrote these comments? Magic gnomes?






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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted May 30, 2015 05:18 PM

kiryu133 said:

- Do you favor alternate buildings? examples? i don't want to be forced to choose between creatures if that's what you mean. really hated that in h4.



Well, to tell the truth, I liked that, but only if there are more towns of your faction.

That being said, I would prefer that you could choose between two buildings to construct. Gives some uniqueness to town (besides the Tear of Asha Grail structure). For has anyone realized why do towns, despite their backgrounds and names, have "exactly" the same buildings?

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LucPatenaude
LucPatenaude


Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
posted July 07, 2015 02:21 AM

Just posted on the Shadow Council a few minutes ago.

I just got re-instated as member of the Shadow Council(whenever the true date that has been done) and, was able to fully edit my membership's account. Am level 7, already. Probably because I got so many thumbs ups since last Fall of 2014(comments made of that date).

Voted Dungeon and stated on my latest post that I wish both holy and dark elves should be in the 2nd beta release.

So, that way, the devs will be enticed at completing the very last faction of the vanilla edition of Heroes 7(Dungeon).

Therefore, I strongly advise everyone here, whom have a Uplay account to go there and, make your vote.

Only 8 days allocated to this voting session.


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LucPatenaude
LucPatenaude


Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
posted July 16, 2015 08:14 PM

Voting for the next Beta testing is now done-closed.

Dungeon came out victorious with a good 33% of all total votes.

Followed by Sylvan with a wonderful 29% of all total votes.

Necros were not too far behind at a 27% of all total votes.

Stronghold(Orcs) were down to a pitiful 11% of all total votes.

Believe me that the emotions rose high for the elvish factions lovers. Went really low to the point of near revolt when it came to the Orcs' overall acceptance(just say that the word BS was mentioned quite often).

Disappointment like feeling towards the performance and, willingness of the overall population of voters, this time around, for the Necros. The cause was probably brought to all of our attentions about the overall looks and colors of the Necro. faction's units(Too H6-ish)


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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 21, 2015 01:38 PM
Edited by Galaad at 13:40, 21 Jul 2015.

After more thinking, seems pretty obvious to me Shadow Council has no real interest in the input from fan forums such as HC. Ubi's goal is to make Heroes with "their" community, with people who never heard of JVC, or have no clue whatsoever about the franchise's history. They want to be able to say the "community" is behind them, after having newcomers brainwashed with their articles, thus entirely dismissing us "old fools with our canes and conservative views" (and according to some article from a M. Benson, h5 is already conservative, oh the irony).
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