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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Heroes Community Q&A ~ 22/09/14 ~
Thread: Heroes Community Q&A ~ 22/09/14 ~ This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 22, 2014 08:10 PM

Protolisk said:
However, I am confused with the second. You want freedom to choose perks... but, would that not go against randomness? Or do you want JUST skills to be random, but perks are fully choose-able once you have the prerequisite skill?

Yes, exactly that.
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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 22, 2014 08:12 PM

Storm-Giant said:
Protolisk said:
However, I am confused with the second. You want freedom to choose perks... but, would that not go against randomness? Or do you want JUST skills to be random, but perks are fully choose-able once you have the prerequisite skill?

Yes, exactly that.


I guess I would be okay with that, as long as those starting skills are actually attainable... (2% for a skill might as well be 0%)

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Kronos1000
Kronos1000


Promising
Supreme Hero
Frysln Boppe
posted September 22, 2014 09:10 PM
Edited by Kronos1000 at 21:11, 22 Sep 2014.

As I've said before, a non random system could work, but it would have to be very balanced and a wheel system may encourage the player to not pick the same skills every time like people do in Heroes 6. Separating the magic system from the skill system is already a step up from Heroes 6. It all depends on how they implement it, I'll reserve my judgement until I know more about it.
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ninjata12
ninjata12


Adventuring Hero
posted September 22, 2014 09:27 PM

The skill system must be made so that there are no useless abilities. Even in H3 there were plenty of them. If it's not random, then please, balance them. Otherwise the game will really become boring once the best combo is figured out by the community. We need a lot of different paths for the development of our hero that are all equally good.
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Kronos1000
Kronos1000


Promising
Supreme Hero
Frysln Boppe
posted September 22, 2014 09:36 PM

ninjata12 said:
The skill system must be made so that there are no useless abilities. Even in H3 there were plenty of them. If it's not random, then please, balance them. Otherwise the game will really become boring once the best combo is figured out by the community. We need a lot of different paths for the development of our hero that are all equally good.


Fully agreed, having no useless abilities is even more important in a non random skill system. As I said it can be done but it depends on the implementation. The developers will need to spend a lot of time balancing this thing.

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Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted September 22, 2014 09:42 PM

Elvin said:

04) Will primary attributes return (attack, defense, spell power and knowledge) or will it be like in H6?

[XP] Primary attributes are making their grand come back in Heroes VII. Based on all we learnt from traditional Heroes titles we decided to re-implement them, the only difference will be the nomination of some of them.


yes, yes, YES!! This is really good news, but somewhat surprising since the demo differentiates between might and magic damage and attack. But I'm VERY happy about this

Quote:

[XP]  The truth is we discussed an option to implement randomization. But in the end we decided to let you choose what skills / abilities you want to unlock. So it will be a kind of mix between H6 (full control is in your hands) and H5 (skills are structured in a wheel). We will develop this point in the following months on our Shadow Council website to give you more details.


I would prefer a mix where skills are random while perks are not. So you don't know what skill you might end up with, but when you get one, you can tailor it as you'd like.

Quote:

[XP]  Im glad to say I can reveal more info about Warfare Units! The new thing is theyre a mix of creatures and war machines, destructible, buyable, upgradable... They are unique to each faction and offer various gameplay styles. Goodbye to the one-for-all catapults, hello to your own dedicated support units.


I think this sounds like a nice addition!

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 22, 2014 10:13 PM

Storm-Giant said:
I still think a compromise can be reached. Give me random skills (but with reasonable percents) and the freedom to choose perks. I dream...

Yes, this very much. Completely free skills sucks!

But interesting tidbit about the War Machines.

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted September 22, 2014 10:32 PM

alcibiades said:
Storm-Giant said:
I still think a compromise can be reached. Give me random skills (but with reasonable percents) and the freedom to choose perks. I dream...

Yes, this very much. Completely free skills sucks!

But interesting tidbit about the War Machines.


Ok, but what are reasonable percentages?
If we want bigger percentages than the 2-15% we had in H5 then we need to reduce the number of main skills. That is not going to be easier due to the fact that there are now 7 magic schools.
They could raise the level cap but if levels are too easy to gain then the balance is going to be screwed...
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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 22, 2014 10:49 PM

Kronos1000 said:
ninjata12 said:
The skill system must be made so that there are no useless abilities. Even in H3 there were plenty of them. If it's not random, then please, balance them. Otherwise the game will really become boring once the best combo is figured out by the community. We need a lot of different paths for the development of our hero that are all equally good.


Fully agreed, having no useless abilities is even more important in a non random skill system. As I said it can be done but it depends on the implementation. The developers will need to spend a lot of time balancing this thing.

This is another important point. Even the "random skills, chooseable perks" system would meet this problem. In my opinion, this problem can be reduced by having not too many perks, and making each perk interesting.

It's crucial to no only have different interesting options at one time, but also favour other perks under other situations. The former it's more difficult to achieve, but the later is something that must be achieved with a non-random system.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 22, 2014 11:20 PM

fuChris said:
Ok, but what are reasonable percentages?
If we want bigger percentages than the 2-15% we had in H5 then we need to reduce the number of main skills. That is not going to be easier due to the fact that there are now 7 magic schools.
They could raise the level cap but if levels are too easy to gain then the balance is going to be screwed...

I'd go with 5% for rare skills, 8% for regular skills, 10% for common skills and 15% for class-favoured skills. Of course rare skills should not be as broken as in H5 but instead provide interesting opportunities. More importantly there should be ways to minimize the randomness. H5 offered 1 basic skill, 1 adv skill, a basic ability, 1 adv ability. This is not enough if you want to have a good measure of control rather than play the odds and see what comes up. Instead I would propose that we divide our level up options.

Learn new skill or Improve skill: You get 2 new skills and 2 new abilities or 2 advanced skills and 2 advanced abilities to choose from. Could be 3 of each if 2 is found insufficient.

Frequent level ups do not mess up the balance by themselves though the skills/abilities should be less powerful to compensate. And I want a skill/ability to give at least 5% in something, otherwise you don't get a sense of achivement and progression.

But this won't be happening anytime soon..
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 23, 2014 02:07 AM
Edited by Galaad at 02:08, 23 Sep 2014.

alcibiades said:
Completely free skills sucks!

Actually we made a poll about it. Marzhin ?

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted September 23, 2014 07:37 AM

Elvin said:


Learn new skill or Improve skill: You get 2 new skills and 2 new abilities or 2 advanced skills and 2 advanced abilities to choose from. Could be 3 of each if 2 is found insufficient.

Frequent level ups do not mess up the balance by themselves though the skills/abilities should be less powerful to compensate. And I want a skill/ability to give at least 5% in something, otherwise you don't get a sense of achivement and progression.

But this won't be happening anytime soon..


This. Dividing levelups is I think the key here. And definately 3 options for each.

On the frequent levelups we disagree. People who play at a relatively similar level could end up 5-6(or more) levels apart when meeting instead of 2-3 and that not only makes a difference in the number of skills but also in the stats so those have to be rebalanced as well so that each point gives a smaller bonus in order to compensate for their frequent gains.
Let's take the classicH3/H5 formula. Each point of attack/defence gave 2% bonus. With a 50 levelcap instead of 30 to end upwith the relative same endresult a point now has to give only a 1.2% bonus. And that looks silly. They could multipy each stat by 10 but then we end up with H6 levels of stats again and we do not want that.
Also the main attribute(for example attack for barbarians) which has a 60% weight means an extra 12 points {[12*(2*0,6)]*10=144} of attack. This combined wit the extra skill levelups(20 to be exact) you could fill 3 H5 style skilltrees and have some left over... That means even more specialization on one playstyle for each class. Vastly big differences lead to vastly big balancing issues and I frankly don't put much faith in getting a balanced vanilla game.
And that is just attack/defense. Spells would need completely different formula for the calculation of damage and duration and that coupled with the fact that we now have 7 spell schools is gonna end up with H4 levels of unbalancedness.




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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 23, 2014 10:42 AM

Nice job, Elvin! Good to read some of the stuff, like for instance the War Machines. I'll keep my judgment about the skill system at bay for now, I want to see more of it before I will decide whether it's good or bad. The one thing I hope is that there are significant differences in the skill wheel from faction to faction, so that an obvious choice for one faction is not so obvious for another.

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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted September 23, 2014 01:38 PM

Quote:
[XP] Primary attributes are making their grand come back in Heroes VII. Based on all we learnt from traditional Heroes titles we decided to re-implement them, the only difference will be the nomination of some of them.

Quote:
[XP]  Im glad to say I can reveal more info about Warfare Units! The new thing is theyre a mix of creatures and war machines, destructible, buyable, upgradable... They are unique to each faction and offer various gameplay styles. Goodbye to the one-for-all catapults, hello to your own dedicated support units.

Excellent news!

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 23, 2014 01:47 PM

Maurice said:
Nice job, Elvin! Good to read some of the stuff, like for instance the War Machines. I'll keep my judgment about the skill system at bay for now, I want to see more of it before I will decide whether it's good or bad. The one thing I hope is that there are significant differences in the skill wheel from faction to faction, so that an obvious choice for one faction is not so obvious for another.

I never thought on different skills perks for each faction, and it's certainly a way to ensure different gameplay depending of the faction. I'll join you in the hope of getting this too
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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted September 23, 2014 01:57 PM

Storm-Giant said:
Maurice said:
Nice job, Elvin! Good to read some of the stuff, like for instance the War Machines. I'll keep my judgment about the skill system at bay for now, I want to see more of it before I will decide whether it's good or bad. The one thing I hope is that there are significant differences in the skill wheel from faction to faction, so that an obvious choice for one faction is not so obvious for another.

I never thought on different skills perks for each faction, and it's certainly a way to ensure different gameplay depending of the faction. I'll join you in the hope of getting this too


Really? Never?
You do realize that that is exactly what H5 had? Not completely different for each faction mind you but there were enough differences.
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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 23, 2014 02:01 PM

By 'never' I mean while theorizing here. It's been long since the last time I played HV
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted September 23, 2014 02:40 PM

The varying combat maps could be veeery interesting. Depends on how it is implemented, but sounds promising. I always disliked Warmachines because they were quite useless in late game most of the time, but the fact they can be upgraded sounds awesome. Maybe something like you can get a vastly better version of the Warmachine every 5 levels if you spend money on it, or maybe better yet it should be tied to your Capitol level so the more you build the better Warfare units you can get.

Hmmm, also yes please to the original Hero attributes!
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Kurush
Kurush


Known Hero
posted September 23, 2014 06:20 PM

With the magic schools, I think there'll be 4 skills as in HV:
Air-Fire
Earth-Water

Light-Darkness
Prime Chaos-Order or maybe

Light-Prime order
Darkness-Prime chaos

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Doomhammer
Doomhammer


Known Hero
Smasher of pasties
posted September 23, 2014 06:58 PM

Good job elvin some nice surprises in there, the war machines sound interesting looking forward to more info on the other faction lineups.

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