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| Thread: Ashan-based Lineups, do you even care? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Doomhammer
Known Hero
Smasher of pasties
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posted November 09, 2014 10:37 AM |
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Yes i am also a H4 fan, it's probably my favourite. Totally agree with everything you said TDL.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 09, 2014 10:26 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 22:27, 09 Nov 2014.
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TDL said:
The first and foremost example is the change of the way certain units play, such as Cave Hydra. Even though I like the concept of vampiric hydras in general, I find that they do not fit my standard of expected gameplay for this unit at all. Over the years I have grown accustomed to a multi-headed attack with no retaliation. Now they throw a completely new way to utilize the creature completely based off the lore they created for this game (and which does not conform to the one in the past, such as H5's deep hydra). I find this irritating at the very least, as I prefer to see units have a similar sort of gameplay across all the games. From what I gather I am certainly not the only one.
I fully agree. Furthermore, the vampiric aspect of the Hydra is something that completely makes no sense, even given the Lernean Hydra on which it is originally based. That create screams poison (its breath, its blood), and if there's one faction that utilises poison, it's Dungeon. But not this Hydra, for some reason. Also, there's no reason why a Hydra with a poisonous attack wouldn't fit better into Dungeon, where a vampiric one would.
Just throwing around some ideas, how about this one:
Hydra:
- Multi-attack against all enemy stacks around it;
- Poisonous bite (small DoT for a few turns on all bitten stacks);
- Each turn has a 25% chance to regrow a severed head (effectively, it regains its max hitpoints divided by the number of maximum heads back);
Cave Hydra has the following in addition to the above:
- Each turn has a 50% to regrow a severed head instead of 25%;
- Whenever a Hydra in the stack dies, it sprays all surrounding stacks with its poisonous blood, dealing some direct damage to all enemy stacks surrounding it;
Why wouldn't such a Hydra fit Dungeon?
Quote:
The second example concerns nightmares. While this is a retcon from H5, I find the realignment into a town concerned with darkness a rather fitting one, which is why I chose Blades in the first place. The lore in this case does not matter much for me, as there is substantial reason to move creatures such as this around across lineups. However, I have a really strong affinity for nightmares as they were in Heroes 4. They conform to what currently stands as the 'saboteur' class unit as they had the ability to cast "Terror" and literally cripple living units, especially if you split stacks. However, this is the gameplay I feel attuned to, so no matter how they try to reason for the nightmares' inclusion and what abilities are given to them, I will feel disappointed.
And here I disagree. The reason I didn't like Nightmares in Blades is because I feel a Nightmare is an otherwordly creature, magical in nature, conjured and/or summoned through sinister rituals. Not a mundane, earthly creature that you could breed just like regular horses and the like. The theme of summoning otherwordly beasts fits a lot more to Inferno in the first place and possibly Necropolis as a second contender. For me, it's too far away from the roots of Dungeon, even if it's generally considered a dark and evil faction. Sure enough, all factions considered, they're third ... of three possible ones that could summon them  .
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted November 09, 2014 10:34 PM |
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Maurice said:
And here I disagree. The reason I didn't like Nightmares in Blades is because I feel a Nightmare is an otherwordly creature, magical in nature, conjured and/or summoned through sinister rituals. Not a mundane, earthly creature that you could breed just like regular horses and the like. The theme of summoning otherwordly beasts fits a lot more to Inferno in the first place and possibly Necropolis as a second contender. For me, it's too far away from the roots of Dungeon, even if it's generally considered a dark and evil faction. Sure enough, all factions considered, they're third ... of three possible ones that could summon them .
It depends on the portrayal of nightmares. Arguably they are better fits for Necropolis and Ashan Inferno, but there is substantial reason for nightmares to be in this faction as well. As I said, I am more concerned with gameplay, not the lore explanation of the unit, but they could be conceived as beings made from purely shadows (spirits, not material beings).
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted November 10, 2014 08:23 AM |
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TDL said:
It depends on the portrayal of nightmares. Arguably they are better fits for Necropolis and Ashan Inferno, but there is substantial reason for nightmares to be in this faction as well. As I said, I am more concerned with gameplay, not the lore explanation of the unit, but they could be conceived as beings made from purely shadows (spirits, not material beings).
Nightmares as you describe them, beings made from purely shadows, could be a nice replacement for darkness elementals. This connects greatly to the neutral creatures thread, where the consensus was that the elementals need original names instead of just element + elemental.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 10, 2014 01:40 PM |
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Unrelated but did the 3DO verse creatures (Medusas, Harpies, Naga, Minotaurs, etc) have any reason to exist? Any backstory
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted November 10, 2014 02:29 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 14:30, 10 Nov 2014.
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GenyaArikado said:
Unrelated but did the 3DO verse creatures (Medusas, Harpies, Naga, Minotaurs, etc) have any reason to exist? Any backstory
Some yes, other not so much.
Minotaurs were first described as magical guardians summoned by mages to protected thier tresures (it was in MM3 or in MM4-5 I think).
On Enroth some minotaurs were created by warlock Agar by fusing a human and a bull (MM6). Others lived in community on Jadame (MM8) where you can visit their town and see both bulls and cows 
MM8 said:
The Minotaurs of Jadame and elsewhere were originally creatures created by powerful magic, but having the ability to breed, have gone on to form their own culture. Recently the Jadamean Minotaurs have won a war with the Frost Giants of the frozen Vori wastes.
As for Nagas:
MM8 said:
Wizards often summon magical beasts to protect treasures and sacred sites. Only the most powerful are capable of calling and controlling guardians as powerful as the Naga. Possessed of great strength, skill and patience, Nagas make perfect protectors.
I think Medusas and Harpies also were creation of Warlocks. After all Evil Eyes and Minotaurs were both Agar's pets.. who both rebelled against him.
Even Hydra from Fortress was Warlocks' creation.
MM7 said:
Hydras are apparently a creation of the Warlocks, like minotaurs and beholders and manticores. Hydras have a breath weapon attack similar to- though not nearly as strong as- a dragon's. Also, hydras can poison its unlucky victim with its bite, or shatter the armor with its powerful strikes.
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 10, 2014 03:45 PM |
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Backstories hardly matter if they aren't satisfying.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 10, 2014 03:49 PM |
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Thank you Avonu 
Avirosb said:
Backstories hardly matter if they aren't satisfying.
And satisfying is subjetive. So not sure of where are you trying to get
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Shambell
Hired Hero
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posted November 10, 2014 03:56 PM |
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Maurice said:
I fully agree. Furthermore, the vampiric aspect of the Hydra is something that completely makes no sense, even given the Lernean Hydra on which it is originally based.
Not that I find it a marvelous idea but from what was written, I thought it could make sense.
Quote:
Hydras are among the most formidable Magical Beasts to roam the lands of Ashan. These giant snakes, mutated by the raw magic unleashed during the Mythic Age, possess multiple heads, allowing them to attack several opponents at once. Their bite is nasty and, depending on the Dragon whose spilled blood was involved in the Hydra’s creation, it will have varying effects on the unfortunate victim.
There are as many types of Hydras as there are Dragon Gods. Some of them are purely serpentine, others have reptilian legs, and the exact number of heads varies from one species to the next. The Dark Elves have learned to tame the Cave Hydras dwelling in the bottomless Abyss.
To resume, high probability to have an Hydra "touched" by Malassa.
And Life Drain is an ability coming from the Darkness school of magic (the one of Malassa)
Maurice said:
The reason I didn't like Nightmares in Blades is because I feel a Nightmare is an otherwordly creature, magical in nature, conjured and/or summoned through sinister rituals. Not a mundane, earthly creature that you could breed just like regular horses and the like.
You can write this about other creatures like Black Dragons...
Maurice said:
The theme of summoning otherwordly beasts fits a lot more to Inferno in the first place
If it comes from Sheogh, yes. The other planes, no.
But Unicorns live on Thallan.
And the devs told us that Nightmares would be different from H5.
Maurice said:
and possibly Necropolis as a second contender.
It has to be dead or near dead to fit inside Necropolis, no ?
Undead <> Darkness
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 10, 2014 03:57 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
And satisfying is subjetive. So not sure of where are you trying to get
Voicing my opinion, what else would I do on a forum?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 10, 2014 04:24 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
Avirosb said:
Backstories hardly matter if they aren't satisfying.
And satisfying is subjetive. So not sure of where are you trying to get
It is basically the reverse of the addage: "Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all."
If you have no backstory, that is a shame, but there is nothing that can be done about it.
If you have a bad backstory, which I agree is something subjective, knowing of it can be very immersion breaking.
So to many, no is better than bad.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted November 10, 2014 04:32 PM |
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By lore it seems that hydras are similar to wyvers, that by there exists 6 different kinds of wyverrns depending. Maybe seven... im not saying anything about prime or order wyverns/hydras... but i want to see ashans vesion of a CHAOS Hydra.
Maybe DoC...
So going back to H5 and looking at those hydras, we can assume that they were earth-aligned, since regeneration and poison/acid are earth stuff in Ashan. I think i would have more problems with "pyrohydras"
The fact also saddens me a bit, since "water-hydra" is something that could have been appeared as a possible sanctuary champion.
But well.. again, maybe DoC or some other Ashan game.
Anyway, i have no problems with a huge tank creature, that heals himself through damaging is opponents.
@Maurice
Summoning spirits, elementals and other creatures to do their bidding is not only a inferno thing. Wizards to it pretty often, just look at the djinn and cabir. The House Anima (its menbers are often called elementalists and summoners) is specialised to binding djinn and other spirits to their service.
In some levels in can be even applied to Sylvan or Sanctuary although they have spirit creatures living alongside them.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 11, 2014 09:11 AM |
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While I agree with that assessment, when I look at the Nightmare, I see an evil spirited creature. In my opinion, it has no place in a good aligned faction like Haven or Sylvan. Even Academy with its basic neutrality (neither good nor evil) doesn't feel like a proper home for a Nightmare, in my opinion.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 11, 2014 09:30 AM |
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Nightmare would be fine in necropolis. In doc it even has a card called living nightmare whose intimidating presence does not allow weaker units to attack it. Necro could use some change but it needs something more subtle than spiders and undead manticores..
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Shambell
Hired Hero
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posted November 11, 2014 10:53 AM |
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Edited by Shambell at 10:56, 11 Nov 2014.
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Ah yes. [url=https://www.duelofchampions.com/data/public/files/cards/en/s02/s02_Cre_Nec_043.jpg]This one.[/url]
This card represents a horde of zombified hound. Not a living creature like a Darkness unicorn.
I always thought that it was called "Living Nightmare" because, well, to against something like this would be indeed a living nightmare.
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vitirr
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 11, 2014 12:14 PM |
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Answering the original question.
I certainly prefer creatures over lore. And with creatures I'm implying diversity and creativity freedom. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any lore at all but it should be secondary as it mostly was in the older games. Lore at the service of gameplay and not the other way around.
Ashan has however installed a lorecracy that IMO suffocates creativity and diversity of the games, and even restrict gameplay. Good examples are the racial factions of H5, or the "elves of might and dragons" that it became. And the problem is that such a hefty lore guidance is only taking them to get into their onw trap, as lots of retcons start to come up. Lore should be a flexible reference frame but not a jail.
Good thing is that they seem to have taken a step back. Bad thing is that there are lots of fans now who demand following the same treatment and this is showing in the votes ("medusa doesn't belong to dungeon!", "dungeon can't be defensive, snow shield!", "dungeon is no dungeon without lots of dark elves and faceless because their lore says..."). I hope Ubi at least decides to go for more flexibility but it will have a hard time keeping their world consistent and make happy both segments of the fan base.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 11, 2014 02:08 PM |
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War-overlord said:
GenyaArikado said:
Avirosb said:
Backstories hardly matter if they aren't satisfying.
And satisfying is subjetive. So not sure of where are you trying to get
It is basically the reverse of the addage: "Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all."
If you have no backstory, that is a shame, but there is nothing that can be done about it.
If you have a bad backstory, which I agree is something subjective, knowing of it can be very immersion breaking.
So to many, no is better than bad.
It's a terrible mindset. If there is backstory you can always ignore it. If there isnt and you want it then you're screwed
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LRN
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 11, 2014 02:52 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
War-overlord said:
GenyaArikado said:
Avirosb said:
Backstories hardly matter if they aren't satisfying.
And satisfying is subjetive. So not sure of where are you trying to get
It is basically the reverse of the addage: "Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all."
If you have no backstory, that is a shame, but there is nothing that can be done about it.
If you have a bad backstory, which I agree is something subjective, knowing of it can be very immersion breaking.
So to many, no is better than bad.
It's a terrible mindset. If there is backstory you can always ignore it. If there isnt and you want it then you're screwed
You could always retcon it. though...
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 11, 2014 03:04 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
It's a terrible mindset.
And terrible is subjective.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 11, 2014 03:06 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
It's a terrible mindset. If there is backstory you can always ignore it. If there isnt and you want it then you're screwed
On behalf of everyone, I appologize for having standards.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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